Couldn't care less about which unit number is working a service but train formation information would be very useful - especially when you have to play games like guess which way round the train is if you want First Class or a Quiet Coach at a station where this isn't advertised.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Public TRUST system
- Thread starter atwales
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
If anyone is interested in the interface, there is a training manual distributed by EC and made public under a FOI available https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/genius_mobile#incoming-218961
scotsman
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Jul 2010
- Messages
- 3,252
There's far too much personal information on these systems for them to be public - no-one other than a limited number of staff needs to know which passengers will be sitting where, and when...or where passengers requiring assistance will be travelling between...or even the traincrew's full names and mobile numbers!
What on earth makes you think Joe Public care which 377 unit is going to take them to work?! I give up!
(Stephen Fry - what a legend......)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is precisely why the next person who gets caught releasing log in details may well find themselves with a P45 for their trouble. Would love to be a fly on the wall down the pub to hear the conversation along the lines of:
'Didn't you used to work on the railway!?'
'Yeah, but they caught me giving out log ins to trainspotters on the platform and I got the sack for it'...
Although I'm still struggling with the justification for releasing the details of what's working a particular train*, I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be made available. I don't know exactly where this information would be extracted from, but certainly in TRUST we can't see anything like details of passengers requiring assistance, reservations and the crew's phone numbers - even if this is available in the original source of data, I'd like to think it'd be filtered out!
* - One reason given so far to possibly justify this, is to provide the ability to see whether a service is short-formed or not. I don't know how the information is updated if a unit's nobbled off its booked diagram to go and do something else, or when Control are trying to scratch together a diagram from other bits and pieces, but I suspect (as Ferret suggests) that, in these cases, it'd take a little while for the system to be updated if everyone's busy trying to sort things out, so the data wouldn't necessarily reflect reality until it's too late anyway. How do the systems cope with reversals too, to be any use at indicating which way round a set is formed?
* - One reason given so far to possibly justify this, is to provide the ability to see whether a service is short-formed or not. I don't know how the information is updated if a unit's nobbled off its booked diagram to go and do something else, or when Control are trying to scratch together a diagram from other bits and pieces, but I suspect (as Ferret suggests) that, in these cases, it'd take a little while for the system to be updated if everyone's busy trying to sort things out, so the data wouldn't necessarily reflect reality until it's too late anyway. How do the systems cope with reversals too, to be any use at indicating which way round a set is formed?
High Dyke
Established Member
Sometimes the "spotter on the end of the platform" has more information than the staff...
Sometimes the "spotter on the end of the platform" has more information than the staff...
That's true!
High Dyke
Established Member
Absolutely correct. At unstaffed stations it can be difficult to get accurate delay information - even where PIS is used. An example of this occured the other week. A train was delayed from its starting station, but the cause was not inputted into the information system to give an accurate/updated reason for the delay to passengers until the train was arriving at the station i was at (17 miles away - 32 minutes running time). I had time to briefly announce the delay cause before concentrating on my proper duty. At places like that it isn't the responsibility of NR staff to advise passengers about delays - i do it out of pride and a sense of obligation; though others wouldn't do it!
If the delay hasn't yet been attributed to an incident though, the various 'open data' sources will be equally unhelpful. I agree that the flow of information when things go a little bit wrong could be improved - but I'd rather the internal systems be sorted first, as it doesn't reflect well on the industry when members of the public are more (if not better) informed as to what's happening!
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 19,655
I'm sure there must be a way of filtering out all the other information and providing the info that a "v" next to a schedule in a TRUST lineup does. All it will do is give the unit or coach numbers, can't see the freight boys allowing a consist to be downloaded though.
High Dyke
Established Member
From my point of view a unit allocation isn't relevant, but delay information is. That way the public can be better informed.
I don't think anyone is suggesting 100% unrestricted access, in the same way that the current realtime information didn't show freight until recently I'd imagine any open version of this data would not, for obvious reasons, contain information like that.
Genius does, which is why I'm hacked off with the wuckfits who give out logins to the trainspotters. I'm told that moron from Newton Abbot who calls himself 'Driff' had been given a log in, and was then using that log in to work out further log ins, change their passwords and then sell the log ins on to other spotters. Needless to say the Police were informed of this criminal little enterprise. Driff then went quiet, but somehow managed to get further log ins, then started adding threatening tag lines to his posts which were taken from Genius Mobile on certain email lists.
High Dyke
Established Member
Many a time i've walked onto a platform to find 'Digital Doris' wittering on about "line problems" when in reality the problem has been resolved or worse...never existed in the first place! Other occasions are when instead of just advising a train is "delayed" a specific cause for the delay can be explained. To my mind that gives the public a better perception of reality as opposed to 'f*****g British Rail!', and believe me there are many that still think we are all one railway...and not that their train is operated by profiteering privateers.
Ooh may i get off my soapbox please...?
I certainly don't advocate giving the masses access to information such as TRUST or Gemini - even many NR staff don't have that privilege. However an information system that can explain delays accurately, where possible, would be helpful to the travelling public.
Do you mean the correct delay period of time or the actual reason behind the delay?
If it's the actual reason does the average Jo Public really need to know specifics, I thought the whole point of the 'simplified' jargon was to make it easier to understand. Would the average punter with no interest in railways whatsoever really care that the "line side equipment fault" is a Hot Axle Box Detector activation or that Track Circuit AB has failed, holding Signal AB 24 at danger? Would they have a scoobie what you were talking about if you did tell them?
I'm sure if they really wanted to know the specifics they could always ask on a staffed station or email/tweet the TOC concerned.
I have never been asked about specifics, i have given simple explanations but usually all the passenger have ever asked me is the length of delay, is there a quicker train, is the train likely to be delayed further etc.
High Dyke
Established Member
Actual... My offbeat sense of humour takes gratification in explaining to passengers if their train is delayed, for example, a brake fault: i can then assure the public that their train should be safe to travel on.
Those who have heard my announcements will know the effort i put into haranguing the public. I'm not suggesting that we should go to the trouble of explaining things like an HABD fault, but could be more specific about a line problem, or a level crossing problem - especially where it isn't the fault of Network Rail. Like all delay attribution it can be a blame game...it just isn't going to be me! 
ValleyLines142
Established Member
Without sounding ignorant, and please correct me or put me in the right place here, but what exactly is the issue with systems such as TRUST and GEMINI being leaked to the general public? I don't really understand why, to certain extremes, the police would need to be called because Joe Bloggs knows that say 390001 is working the 1100 London to Manchester or whatever?
What exactly is so private about the system? Some spotters have say just one 150 or 142 they need to clear off their list of units spotted, what is the harm in this?
What exactly is so private about the system? Some spotters have say just one 150 or 142 they need to clear off their list of units spotted, what is the harm in this?
Amy Worrall
Member
- Joined
- 18 Dec 2012
- Messages
- 143
As an app developer, I'd love it if some more information was available. In particular, I'd like the details of train formations (number of carriages, whether first class is at the front, etc). Displaying that to passengers would be very helpful.
Amy
Number of carriages (and especially the info being correct, as against merely what is timetabled) would be very useful for a lot of people. Not everyone of course, but certainly anyone that would know where to stand (or not) based on the information.
Likewise, saying where first class is would be an additional benefit.
I see no harm in sharing that information in the public domain for app/web developers to use.
Likewise, saying where first class is would be an additional benefit.
I see no harm in sharing that information in the public domain for app/web developers to use.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The number of carroages is announced and displayed on stations in respect of FGW.
telstarbox
Established Member
What are Gemini and Genius please?
What are Gemini & Genius?
We used to have LDB (live departure board) Mobile Staff Version at my depot but it was unofficial ~ maybe came from sources at another TOC? It was great for providing platforming & live running information to passengers. It was quick too on our blackberries as it was operating on an older , less demanding, system. The password changed however & our managers had never heard of it. I take it a TOC would have to pay a fee to access this for their staff hence we don't have it?
Now we have the public version of National Rail Enquiries (NRE) ~ this is pants on a blackberry as there are too much graphics & pictures, it also takes ages to load, in some cases the passenger has left the train before I have accessed the info required!!
I just text train tracker on 84950 for live info & damn the expense!
Is TRUST info not in the public domain any way via realtimetrains & opentraintimes/
We used to have LDB (live departure board) Mobile Staff Version at my depot but it was unofficial ~ maybe came from sources at another TOC? It was great for providing platforming & live running information to passengers. It was quick too on our blackberries as it was operating on an older , less demanding, system. The password changed however & our managers had never heard of it. I take it a TOC would have to pay a fee to access this for their staff hence we don't have it?
Now we have the public version of National Rail Enquiries (NRE) ~ this is pants on a blackberry as there are too much graphics & pictures, it also takes ages to load, in some cases the passenger has left the train before I have accessed the info required!!
I just text train tracker on 84950 for live info & damn the expense!
Is TRUST info not in the public domain any way via realtimetrains & opentraintimes/
The TfL APIs contain data about the Leading Car Number of trains on the Underground as well as the fleet/registration number (sorry, I don't know the actual terminology) of a bus. The data of course does come from a different source but I guess the thinking that there is no reason to filter it out so you might as well provide it.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 5,579
It is only announced some of the time in my experience.
It will be announced at least once for every service and the info will be displayed on the customer information screens
telstarbox
Established Member
What are Gemini and Genius please?
- Status