Public TRUST system

[ryan125hst]

Without me reading through the whole thread, I would just like to add a thought that came to me yesterday.

My cousin flew out to Vancouver for a holiday yesterday.

I asked her for her flight numbers, which she has given me. From these numbers, I was able to track down the arrival and departure times of the flight, the current speed, position and altitude of the flight, as well as historical data of that flight number.

I was also able to find the exact aircraft that she travelled on including the tail number, air frame age, delivery date and cabin configuration as well as view photographs of the aircraft. I was also able to view a history of the last flights that the aircraft has been on (I don't know how far it goes back, but I could view the last few days worth for certain).

This got me thinking. I am a rail enthusiast (obviously ), but I do also like aircraft. While I was finding all of the above information out, I wondered why so much information was available about aircraft, but not about trains. If she had travelled by train, I would have been able to find out very little information by comparison. If the same detail was available to me, I would have been able to tell you the TOPS number of the train, the age of it, the number of first and standard class seats and it's diagrams from the last few days, as well as view photographs of it.

The question is, if I can find this out for aircraft, why not trains? It can't be a security issue as the information is publicly available for aircraft, and as we all know, security is far tighter when you fly than when you travel by train.

Your thoughts?

 

[FGW_DID]

Where was all this info gleaned from? Was it a publicly available website / application that has been developed using data feeds made available to the developer or do you have "access" to the airlines own database / IT systems? ( I think I may know which!!!)

I'm sure if someone with the know how and time was to approach NR with an idea for a similar application for trains then discussion may ensue to release the relevant data feeds.

 

[ryan125hst]

Where was all this info gleaned from? Was it a publicly available website / application that has been developed using data feeds made available to the developer or do you have "access" to the airlines own database / IT systems? ( I think I may know which!!!)

I found the information by simply searching the flight numbers on Google. The information was on the websites displayed on the first page of results, so very publicly available and very easy to find.

 

[DaveHarries]

Without me reading through the whole thread, I would just like to add a thought that came to me yesterday.

My cousin flew out to Vancouver for a holiday yesterday.

I asked her for her flight numbers, which she has given me. From these numbers, I was able to track down the arrival and departure times of the flight, the current speed, position and altitude of the flight, as well as historical data of that flight number.

I was also able to find the exact aircraft that she travelled on including the tail number, air frame age, delivery date and cabin configuration as well as view photographs of the aircraft. I was also able to view a history of the last flights that the aircraft has been on (I don't know how far it goes back, but I could view the last few days worth for certain) [.....]

Where was all this info gleaned from? Was it a publicly available website / application that has been developed using data feeds made available to the developer or do you have "access" to the airlines own database / IT systems? ( I think I may know which!!!)

I'm sure if someone with the know how and time was to approach NR with an idea for a similar application for trains then discussion may ensue to release the relevant data feeds.

FGW_DID,

There are two websites I know of that allow you to glean info on such things. One I know of is called Flightradar24 which is also available online and as an Android / IPhone app. I use it when I am picking people up from my local airport and find it very accurate.

The website - if you are interested - is http://www.flightradar24.com

If you want to know what is scheduled to run in terms of trains then one useful site for this is http://www.opentraintimes.com which, if you click the spanner icon before / after the train icon, will give you codes for passenger trains and some dead workings (not shunts) and you can get all you need to know on each train. OTT is not available as an app though.

HTH,
Dave

 

[atwales]

I think there has been a lot of confusion, all I was asking originally, is there an app or a public right of way through to a TRUST system.

Nobody is interested in staff diagrams and contact details etc.. Simply access to TOPS?


Also, I have now successfully signed up this datafeeds although my account is currently pending, waiting for capacity on the system. They said this should happen within 4 hours althoug may be delayed if there is no capacity - what exactly is the likelihood?

 

[FGW_DID]

Thanks for the link Dave and that is exactly my point (probably didn't make that too clear) but that is a website designed specifically for the public utilising some sort of live data feeds, its not public access to an industry specific application! (Hopefully that makes sense?)

Now if the same could be done for the railway! The closest thing there is must be the excellent Real Time Trains, if this could be expanded on to such an extent, like Flight Radar then somebody would be on to a right winner!!

 

[Goatboy]

Where was all this info gleaned from? Was it a publicly available website / application that has been developed using data feeds made available to the developer or do you have "access" to the airlines own database / IT systems? ( I think I may know which!!!)

It's readily available to the public via the internet.

If its not a security risk for people to know the exact movements of specific Transatlantic Boeing 747's then any attempt to claim that the knowledge of which unit is working the 10:00 to Bristol is a security risk is simply hilarious.

 

[FGW_DID]

FFS

It's readily available to the public via the internet.

Exactly but the difference is making the info available to the public via the internet and giving the public access to railway specific IT which it seems some people were alluding to!

If someone wants to develop an app or website, please feel free, I for one would like to see it!

 

[Tomnick]

The main difference seems to be that the airline data is, from what I can gather, mostly obtained by third-party equipment intercepting (legitimately!) information transmitted by the aircraft themselves. In our case, it's rather different - the trains don't transmit anything (so there's nothing to intercept there), as it's all kept updated by train descriptions stepping between berths (in turn driven mostly by track circuit occupation) or manual input. I don't know a lot about how that information is then processed, but TRUST is an ancient system and surely not easy to provide external interfaces to? The key thing, though, is that it's all handled internally. I don't think it shows that the aircraft folk are more co-operative, but rather that the nature of their systems means that the data's there for all to see without any need to interface to internal systems.

 

[DarloRich]

There still seems to be a total and utter lack of understanding as to what these systems actually do and the information contained within them.

I will ask again - what do you think these systems do and what do you think they contain.

They aren't some golden key to some kind of spotting nirvana

 

[Goatboy]

Exactly but the difference is making the info available to the public via the internet and giving the public access to railway specific IT which it seems some people were alluding to!

I don't think anyone is suggesting there should be an online TRUST login and anyone who was is clearly deluded.

I think what people were suggesting was that more of the data within it should be available as feeds which can then be presented to the public in the same way the data used by sites like realtimetrains currently is, thats all.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't think anyone is suggesting there should be an online TRUST login and anyone who was is clearly deluded.

I think what people were suggesting was that more of the data within it should be available as feeds which can then be presented to the public in the same way the data used by sites like realtimetrains currently is, thats all.

I agree.

There are a number of uses for currently non-public beside trainspotting. For example:

• Knowing what type rolling stock is diagramed for service X could be useful for passengers wishing to avoid certain trains lacking certain facilities.
• Knowing which unit worked a particular service yesterday might help the public hold the railway to account if a service is regularly short-formed or operated with a less suitable type of unit than booked.
• Knowing the diagrams might help campaigners find suggestions for improved services that are acheivable within rolling stock availability limits

 

[Aictos]

There still seems to be a total and utter lack of understanding as to what these systems actually do and the information contained within them.

I will ask again - what do you think these systems do and what do you think they contain.

They aren't some golden key to some kind of spotting nirvana

I'm very much inclined to agree with you strongly on these comments!

 

[Searle]

There still seems to be a total and utter lack of understanding as to what these systems actually do and the information contained within them.

I will ask again - what do you think these systems do and what do you think they contain.

They aren't some golden key to some kind of spotting nirvana

I fail to see what your complete problem with the system becoming public is. It's quite obvious to see that you're strictly against it, but I can't understand why you can say that there's not any possible need for it, when quite a few reasons have arised in this thread.

Personally, I like to keep all of the unit number's I've travelled on. You can insult me for this, but it's a personal thing that I like doing, and I see no harm in making it public. Saying that, I'm not going to exactly fight for it, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to me.

Finally, I'd like to address this post (even though it's quite a while ago)

Genius does, which is why I'm hacked off with the wuckfits who give out logins to the trainspotters. I'm told that moron from Newton Abbot who calls himself 'Driff' had been given a log in, and was then using that log in to work out further log ins, change their passwords and then sell the log ins on to other spotters. Needless to say the Police were informed of this criminal little enterprise. Driff then went quiet, but somehow managed to get further log ins, then started adding threatening tag lines to his posts which were taken from Genius Mobile on certain email lists.

You address this 'black market' of Genius codes, whereas if this information was made public, it would stop this, because everyone would have this information. Surely this is an argument supporting the information being made public?

Genuinely curious to hear what you have to say about this, I don't want to start an argument of swearing/fisticuffs.

 

[Temple Meads]

I fail to see what your complete problem with the system becoming public is. It's quite obvious to see that you're strictly against it, but I can't understand why you can say that there's not any possible need for it, when quite a few reasons have arised in this thread.

Personally, I like to keep all of the unit number's I've travelled on. You can insult me for this, but it's a personal thing that I like doing, and I see no harm in making it public. Saying that, I'm not going to exactly fight for it, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to me.

Finally, I'd like to address this post (even though it's quite a while ago)



You address this 'black market' of Genius codes, whereas if this information was made public, it would stop this, because everyone would have this information. Surely this is an argument supporting the information being made public?

Genuinely curious to hear what you have to say about this, I don't want to start an argument of swearing/fisticuffs.

Great post, I have to agree with everything that you say.

 

[306024]

If I have followed this thread correctly, the train spotters would like an app that tells them what train numbers are on which trains, but some are trying to use all sorts of other spurious arguments to try to justify access to further information.

Now if I can see that G-BNLP is approaching Heathrow on the 19.05 from Seattle, I can't think of a good reason why 315862 on the 12.00 Liverpool St to Shenfield is top secret, but that is as far as it goes.

Now if someone else can develop a network of webcams as well then perhaps train spotting could become an armchair activity

 

[ValleyLines142]

Now if I can see that G-BNLP is approaching Heathrow on the 19.05 from Seattle, I can't think of a good reason why 315862 on the 12.00 Liverpool St to Shenfield is top secret, but that is as far as it goes.

I completely agree with this. It's as if people should be arrested for saying this information!!

 

[Poggs]

If I have followed this thread correctly, the train spotters would like an app that tells them what train numbers are on which trains, but some are trying to use all sorts of other spurious arguments to try to justify access to further information.

Now if I can see that G-BNLP is approaching Heathrow on the 19.05 from Seattle, I can't think of a good reason why 315862 on the 12.00 Liverpool St to Shenfield is top secret, but that is as far as it goes.

Aircraft broadcast their identity and position via ADS-B, and it's straightforward to pick up these transmissions. Trains do not.

GEMINI - if it's kept up-to-date - has no public and open interface to it, and this is why unit information isn't widely available. Sure, you can make a TRUST enquiry to find out what unit is on a service, but that's a function written for the mainframe TRUST runs on.

Nobody has written an interface to GEMINI suitable for distributing the data via the NR Datafeeds platform.

Knowing the unit number of a train is useful to spotters, but trying to justify something on the basis of a hobby isn't a robust business case. A better justification is to improve passenger information, for example.

 

[SprinterMan]

Aircraft broadcast their identity and position via ADS-B, and it's straightforward to pick up these transmissions. Trains do not.

GEMINI - if it's kept up-to-date - has no public and open interface to it, and this is why unit information isn't widely available. Sure, you can make a TRUST enquiry to find out what unit is on a service, but that's a function written for the mainframe TRUST runs on.

Nobody has written an interface to GEMINI suitable for distributing the data via the NR Datafeeds platform.

Knowing the unit number of a train is useful to spotters, but trying to justify something on the basis of a hobby isn't a robust business case. A better justification is to improve passenger information, for example.

Poggs - Sorry to go off topic, but do you know when the excellent "Show Train's Route on Map" function will return to OTT?
Thanks, Adam

 

[Poggs]

Poggs - Sorry to go off topic, but do you know when the excellent "Show Train's Route on Map" function will return to OTT?
Thanks, Adam

Working on it right now actually. Hoping to get real-time out and live in the next week or two.

 

[cjmillsnun]

You address this 'black market' of Genius codes, whereas if this information was made public, it would stop this, because everyone would have this information. Surely this is an argument supporting the information being made public?

Genuinely curious to hear what you have to say about this, I don't want to start an argument of swearing/fisticuffs.

If GENIUS gives out personal information like mobile phone numbers then there is no way that access to that should be made public. That is why Ferret is miffed that these logins are being given out.

Personally I believe these IT systems are private for a reason. If the railway choose to release more information in the future, then great. Until then tough. They are entitled to keep information commercially confidential if they see a need for it.

 

[snail]

GEMINI - if it's kept up-to-date - has no public and open interface to it, and this is why unit information isn't widely available. Sure, you can make a TRUST enquiry to find out what unit is on a service, but that's a function written for the mainframe TRUST runs on.

That is a significant difference. People tend to think that data doesn't cost money to present or deliver. "It's there on the computer, so I should be able to see it." But who should pay for it?

If TRUST is a mainframe application then making public APIs will definitely cost money, both in terms of the data itself and the time taken to deliver it. It may only be a few pence here and there but it all adds up.

 

[The Planner]

I presume it must be a mainframe application as you use normally use a terminal emulator called WinVV to get access to it.

 

[SprinterMan]

Working on it right now actually. Hoping to get real-time out and live in the next week or two.

Excellent news, best of luck

 

[asylumxl]

Without reading all the thread, all I know is I would like to know how many carriages my train is formed of since the CIS at some stations is useless. I think that'd be useful. I can't say I've ever seen it available but willing to be corrected.

 

[Aictos]

If GENIUS gives out personal information like mobile phone numbers then there is no way that access to that should be made public. That is why Ferret is miffed that these logins are being given out.

Personally I believe these IT systems are private for a reason. If the railway choose to release more information in the future, then great. Until then tough. They are entitled to keep information commercially confidential if they see a need for it.

GENIUS does indeed give out personal information for example, with one Intercity TOC for service management purposes it will give you the name and telephone number of both guard and driver plus their diagrams so you know hat they're working and how to contact them.

There really is no need at the moment for the public to access this information.

 

[87015]

GENIUS does indeed give out personal information for example, with one Intercity TOC for service management purposes it will give you the name and telephone number of both guard and driver plus their diagrams so you know hat they're working and how to contact them.

There really is no need at the moment for the public to access this information.

No one is saying they want that info though. various countries publish stock diagrams and allocations publicly and there networks haven't ground to a halt because of it...

 

[A-driver]

No one is saying they want that info though. various countries publish stock diagrams and allocations publicly and there networks haven't ground to a halt because of it...

To be honest there are far more important things that the UK needs to spend money on railway wise than separating info feeds out and getting internal IT systems made public for no real benefit apart to allow some spotters to see what type of train is running.

I don't see any real reason the systems need to be made public. There are already plenty of ways made available to the public of finding out if your train is running on time and that is pretty much the only information non staff need. If the train is short formed then announcements are normally made at stations (I know not always but pretty much always-and that's only because it can take time for someone to manually update the system). I can't see any reasons for the industry to spend time and resources making this sort of thing public unless I am missing something obvious?

 

[Tom]

If the train is short formed then announcements are normally made at stations (I know not always but pretty much always-and that's only because it can take time for someone to manually update the system).

If you are a commuter on a known dodgy line in terms of keeping to formations, it's quite likely that if you know that they're in a system available offline then you can make educated decisions by looking before you leave to the station as to which train you should get on.

Benefits, of course, being that loads will be more spread out, preventing station overcrowding and more importantly, the information is with people before it is too late (and I see too late as the moment you get to the station, as mentally you're then 'committed' to that service).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There really is no need at the moment for the public to access this information.

I see this as a bogus argument really. There is no-one disagreeing with the fact that staff details shouldn't be made public.

The information that should be public is consists. As I said before in this thread (which I don't think I saw anyone reply to), it's not the data itself that is helpful - it's the added value that you can generate from the data that is helpful.

Plus, until you give a load of geeks some data you don't know what can come out of it

 

[Aictos]

If you are a commuter on a known dodgy line in terms of keeping to formations, it's quite likely that if you know that they're in a system available offline then you can make educated decisions by looking before you leave to the station as to which train you should get on.

Benefits, of course, being that loads will be more spread out, preventing station overcrowding and more importantly, the information is with people before it is too late (and I see too late as the moment you get to the station, as mentally you're then 'committed' to that service).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I see this as a bogus argument really. There is no-one disagreeing with the fact that staff details shouldn't be made public.

The information that should be public is consists. As I said before in this thread (which I don't think I saw anyone reply to), it's not the data itself that is helpful - it's the added value that you can generate from the data that is helpful.

Plus, until you give a load of geeks some data you don't know what can come out of it

To a extend I agree with some of your points, take the 14:45 PBO to BFR do people really need to know what specific train it is or can't they just be happy knowing how many coaches it is?

I wait for a train at say SOU and the CIS screens say my train is formed of 8 coaches that and if its on time is all I want to know.