Public TRUST system

[bb21]

What I don't really understand in this thread is how some sections of railway staff and some enthusiasts appear to be at loggerheads with each other.

Releasing certain additional information (but not everything) could definitely benefit the general travelling public, such as knowing which end to wait with a bike or whether to spread out more along the platform, and as someone mentioned, decide whether to leave home now or a little later.

Having as much information as possible available in one place would make rail travel a lot more accessible and smoother for everyone. It is not really a customer-focused approach if information is dotted around different places and one has to jump through hoops to get them.

Knowing exactly which unit is operating has no effect on the ordinary passenger. The class of the train should more than suffice. This information could be directly displayed with links to another page containing more information or presented to the passenger in a more easily understandable manner, such as using icons to show available facilities onboard.

I think Tom has made a very good case for the railway industry to release such data, and in the long run it is probably in the industry's best interests to do so.

That said, if all the above can be made public, there is no reason why the specific unit number should be kept a secret. I cannot see it adding much additional workload anyway. It is not entirely necessary but so what if a few train spotters know the numbers?

Confidential information such as staffing details absolutely should not be made public.

The railway industry does not exist to serve the needs of the enthusiasts community, however railway staff can provide the enthusiasts community with valuable information and advice. Likewise the enthusiasts community (OK, 90% of the community) are not enemies of the railway industry. It is not a game of "us against them" for either side. The two sides complement each other and should really be looking to work together on things such as this one mentioned here.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I'd love to see cranks try using TIDES

TRUST does not contain any information on formations, only unit/set numbers which are manually input and frequently wrong. After all, we all have several photos of 20-car Pendolinos? What benefit for the public is there knowing the Plymouth - Gasgow service is formed of 'XC02'?

The whole TOPS architecture is owned by ATOS. If you want to spend £500 to catch your last pacer, go ahead and ask....

To TSID or not to TSID, that is the question.....

 

[DarloRich]

BB21 - i disagree.

This information contains no real benefit to anyone other than staff and spotters. Does knowing where to stand with your bike really matter that much? Is it that much of a hindrance on our busy lives to have to wait for the train to pull in THEN move to the correct location to load a cycle? (BTW what % of passengers need Cycle information?)

Do the general public care if their service is formed of a class 123 or a class 321? I would suggest they care that SOMETHING turns up and gets them where they want to go.

Finally, I would also doubt many real people know of the existence of sites like Realtime trains, they are going to use National Rail or the Train line for information. Most people simply dont care about all the stuff on those sites and just want the timetable.

I know no one on here will admit this but the vast majority of real people simply dont care about the operational minutiae of the railways. They care about a train turning up when it says it will in the timetable.

 

[bb21]

This information contains no real benefit to anyone other than staff and spotters. Does knowing where to stand with your bike really matter that much? Is it that much of a hindrance on our busy lives to have to wait for the train to pull in THEN move to the correct location to load a cycle? (BTW what % of passengers need Cycle information?)

Try standing at the wrong end of the platform at Doncaster when an HST pulls in late and staff are eager to get it away asap and you will know what I am talking about. It is not just about helping the passenger, but also about helping the rail industry in the process too.

It is not about what proportion of the travelling public an additional piece of information benefits. It is about making rail travel more accessible to all. It's about projecting a positive image to the general public about rail travel. In addition, are you so sure that you will never ever be in a situation like the one I described above?

Do the general public care if their service is formed of a class 123 or a class 321? I would suggest they care that SOMETHING turns up and gets them where they want to go.

They don't, but if information is presented in accessible ways like the two alternatives I mentioned, it will make rail travel much easier, especially for those unfamiliar with how everything works and those unfamiliar with onboard facilities.

If all the railway industry cares about is the fact that something turns up then there is a big problem. Something turning up is better than nothing turning up, but that should not be the end of it. Using an analogy in the bus industry, why is patronage increasing in places like Nottingham but falling in places like Birmingham? (Answer: Nottingham City Transport and Trentbarton do a much better job at making bus travel accessible and more attractive than companies like National Express. A large part of this is information provision.)

Finally, I would also doubt many real people know of the resistance of sites like Realtime trains, they are going to use National Rail or the Train line fr information. Most people simply dont care about all the stuff on those sites and just want the timetable.

That is largely because many of them don't know the existence of sites like realtimetrains. People trust the fact that the brand National Rail Enquiries would provide them with the most comprehensive provision of travel information, but that does not mean realtimetrains comes off more inferior in the eyes of the general public.

People are lazy. The majority will not do any research. That is why the sheep line is still going strong when it should have gone bust long ago. However the railway industry should not be relying on this as indication that it is doing everything in the best way possible.

I know no one on here will admit this but the vast majority of real people simply dont care about the operational minutiae of the railways. They care about a train turning up when it says it will in the timetable.

That is partly because these are the most important issues. It does not mean that things cannot be done in a better way. The vast majority of the travelling public have come to accept that information provision is poor in this country because this is how everything has been for the last however many decades. It does not mean that it should remain this way.

 

[asylumxl]

BB21 - i disagree.

This information contains no real benefit to anyone other than staff and spotters. Does knowing where to stand with your bike really matter that much? Is it that much of a hindrance on our busy lives to have to wait for the train to pull in THEN move to the correct location to load a cycle? (BTW what % of passengers need Cycle information?)

Do the general public care if their service is formed of a class 123 or a class 321? I would suggest they care that SOMETHING turns up and gets them where they want to go.

Finally, I would also doubt many real people know of the resistance of sites like Realtime trains, they are going to use National Rail or the Train line fr information. Most people simply dont care about all the stuff on those sites and just want the timetable.

I know no one on here will admit this but the vast majority of real people simply dont care about the operational minutiae of the railways. They care about a train turning up when it says it will in the timetable.

While I agree with most of this I do think some information (e.g. length, cycle space position) would be useful for most passengers.

Other countries seem to have no issue providing such information, as previously stated. It's just logical that if passengers know where they should be it will help make the alighting and boarding of passengers more efficient.

Our TOCs are obsessed with dwell times and I am quite sure that some of the objectors on this thread will have previously supported the reduction of dwell times. Waiting for the train to arrive and running down the other end increases dwell times. So which one is it?

 

[Tom]

Finally, I would also doubt many real people know of the resistance of sites like Realtime trains, they are going to use National Rail or the Train line fr information. Most people simply dont care about all the stuff on those sites and just want the timetable.

So what if people don't know about open data sites? The fact is - if we can do something useful and helpful to the many (although in some cases few), then why can't the already existing power houses?

Realtime Trains receives 300,000 visits per month of which 70% of all visits solely relate to enquiries about passenger services. I'd like to improve the user experience for those users. About 60% of *those* enquiries are in the weekday peak. I get a couple of comments about how it could be improved and everything I have said in this thread has come from genuine comments from rail passengers.

Even NRE have said they would like information about rolling stock...

 

[A-driver]

I don't think anyone has said it should not be made public. The information isn't exactly secret/classified at the moment. All the information can be obtained by asking the TOC through twitter/phone/email etc.

I have seen many enthusiasts tweet TOCs like FCC asking what type of stock is on a certain working etc and the info is always given. Its more that I don't see how it will have that much benefit really and I don't see the cases people are giving. Some platform screens already do say where abouts first class is etc but I can't see how its justified to spend money the industry dosnt have on something like this.

Its also not that simple for bikes etc-you could say a 317 works a service meaning bike space is in one of the driving trailers but the system wouldn't be able to tell you which way round the unit was as far as I know so you still wouldn't know weather it was the front DT or back DT with the bike area.

 

[Tom]

The costs stuff I've discussed earlier and really can't be bothered to go over again. I've given examples in this thread of comments that have been made to me about RTT - a lot of what I could do I probably wouldn't come up with until I can use the data.

The accuracy of the data is an interesting topic, and I've faced those sort of problems with RTT with the existing datafeeds that are out in the open. I've done a reasonable job with the currently released version but there is far more I can do and am working on.

However, data being released increases transparency. In a lot of cases, accuracy as well - as there is a greater focus on the released data being accurate. That in itself drives things forward both internally as it means that less data cleansing is need to be done at a later stage for processing, and externally meaning more data is available 'globally' in realtime. Plus, I think a lot of people underestimate what can be done in terms of determining accuracy of data and manipulating it to improve what you can extract from it.

I think it's largely moot whether you can contact a TOC for info about rolling stock via Twitter. Not everyone uses it, and after all - a single resource which provides all the information about a service is more helpful.

 

[A-driver]

If you are that keen to get the data have you actually looked into asking for it? Would you pay for it to be released and volunteer to make the data useable?

I still can't see the benefit though. So far all that the argument for releasing it seems to consist if is 'ill know where to stand with my bike' which really dosnt justify anything to be honest. Most people with bikes will still ignore it and the railway isn't really a huge fan of doing too much to promote the carriage of bikes anyway as they take up valuable space that other passengers could use. That's why most companies have invested in station bike racks - to get them off the trains.

 

[bb21]

Some of the information is out there, however they are not all presented in a passenger-friendly way. For example, some TISes do announce how many coaches are in a particular train, but this is not consistent across board.

I never said that it should be as simple as just showing what class of trains is operating, which would probably be meaningless to 90% of passengers, but rather additional information that can be gathered through knowing what facilities are offered by said class of trains.

As for which end for bike storage, of course making information available with regard to just what class of trains is not sufficient, however by making this information available we are taking the first step, and things can be polished and improved in the future, possibly with information in respect of which way round the train is being entered into the system in the future. It gives everyone something to build on. Without the first step, we will always remain at the place where doing the next bit is not good enough because we will still need to know which way round the train is.

As Tom has explained, funding does not even need to come from within the railway industry itself. The industry only needs to make information available. How it is presented can be left to others to work out.

 

[transmanche]

This information contains no real benefit to anyone other than staff and spotters. Does knowing where to stand with your bike really matter that much? Is it that much of a hindrance on our busy lives to have to wait for the train to pull in THEN move to the correct location to load a cycle? (BTW what % of passengers need Cycle information?).

Well I travel with my bike occasionally. And knowing which end of the train the cycle rack is located could save a minute... not just for me but for the train. Even if it's just a 2-car 156 (bearing in mind we're not supposed to run!) it takes a bit of time to get to the correct end if you've guessed incorrectly.

Plus there are wheelchair users, parents with buggies, people wanting first class - all might be interested in knowing the correct place to wait on the platform.

And finally, there's just anyone with a seat reservation who wants to make sure they're next to the correct carriage!

 

[A-driver]

As I say-do we know that it is not avaliable and has anyone approached 'the industry' to see if the info could be used/released?

From what people have said they want the info for, these systems arnt really what's needed. You really need someone employed to look through the info and work out formations, facility's, locations of coaches etc but no TOC is going to pay for that-why would anyone else pay for it either from outside when very very few people are ever going to part with money to see this info. There isn't really a business case for this kind of thing inside or outside the industry.

 

[Tom]

I am aware of the efforts that Poggs has put in on this subject & he does a lot of work in releasing all the data. If it wasn't for him, it is probably safe to say that all the open data sites wouldn't exist. As said before, this ecosystem is owned by Atos and it's unlikely anything will come out soon.

The data that is released is by no means easy to use, but people manage it. You can release data in virtually any format and as long as it is machine readable, then I can guarantee people will be able to use it.

I don't think you really understand the principles behind the open data movement, though. As I have said repeatedly, the costs of releasing this data will repay themselves for the industry in time. There's also a transparency drive in the ORR on various areas...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what people have said they want the info for, these systems arnt really what's needed. You really need someone employed to look through the info and work out formations, facility's, locations of coaches etc but no TOC is going to pay for that.

You really don't. It can be calculated largely from information already in the public domain.

 

[A-driver]

Well I travel with my bike occasionally. And knowing which end of the train the cycle rack is located could save a minute... not just for me but for the train. Even if it's just a 2-car 156 (bearing in mind we're not supposed to run!) it takes a bit of time to get to the correct end if you've guessed incorrectly.

Plus there are wheelchair users, parents with buggies, people wanting first class - all might be interested in knowing the correct place to wait on the platform.

And finally, there's just anyone with a seat reservation who wants to make sure they're next to the correct carriage!

Anyone with a seat reservation on a long intercity train will get info at the station as to where to stand. The intercity companies already do that.

As for the other things you mention, as already stated, the system being talked about wont help as all it can do is provide the unit number. It won't tell you which way the unit is facing so you may be able to find out that the bike rack is in coach A but wont know if coach A is at the very front or very back if the train.

 

[transmanche]

Anyone with a seat reservation on a long intercity train will get info at the station as to where to stand. The intercity companies already do that.

Only to a limited extent. For example, at Newcastle there are signs showing roughly where each East Coast carriage will stop (although they are pretty inaccurate). But that's no help to you if you're getting a Cross Country or Transpennine Express service.

 

[Eagle]

Only to a limited extent. For example, at Newcastle there are signs showing roughly where each East Coast carriage will stop (although they are pretty inaccurate). But that's no help to you if you're getting a Cross Country or Transpennine Express service.

Some stations that XC serve (all SWT ones and Leamington I know do) will announce for example "Train formation is F-D-C-A". But then of course that requires you to go and find the 4-car marker, and estimate multiples of 23 metres along the platform from that :P

Of course if you're used to the station it's probably easier, as you know roughly where the train sits in the platform and all you need know is which way round it is.

 

[bb21]

From what people have said they want the info for, these systems arnt really what's needed. You really need someone employed to look through the info and work out formations, facility's, locations of coaches etc but no TOC is going to pay for that-why would anyone else pay for it either from outside when very very few people are ever going to part with money to see this info. There isn't really a business case for this kind of thing inside or outside the industry.

You might not think so, but comprehensive information provision has proven to be useful and effective in making a particular mode of transport more accessible and attractive. This should be part of the government strategy in the longer term, with appropriate funding being allocated, if as you claim, some work will be needed to sift through the information in those systems, as the impact will not be instantaneous.

Historically information provision is not taken seriously in this country and many of the travelling public have reluctantly come to accept this. It is not high on the government's agenda because it is not a "glamour" project. It does not have to be this way, however I cannot see the situation changing at time soon.

 

[A-driver]

Only to a limited extent. For example, at Newcastle there are signs showing roughly where each East Coast carriage will stop (although they are pretty inaccurate). But that's no help to you if you're getting a Cross Country or Transpennine Express service.

Knowing that kind of info won't help unless the platforms are appropriately marked up though. Most people don't know where trains stop etc.

To be blunt , this seems to be a thread that is trying to invent a solution to problems which actually don't exist! If there were delays caused by passengers not knowing where bike racks or first class were etc then the TOCs would look at ways to reduce these but there arnt.

 

[asylumxl]

Can't help but feel access to TOPS/Genius etc gives some people a feeling of superiority over rail enthusiasts.

And can't also help but note when people mention other countries providing such information it's continuously ignored.

 

[transmanche]

Knowing that kind of info won't help unless the platforms are appropriately marked up though. Most people don't know where trains stop etc.

Well that's kinda my point!

To be blunt , this seems to be a thread that is trying to invent a solution to problems which actually don't exist! If there were delays caused by passengers not knowing where bike racks or first class were etc then the TOCs would look at ways to reduce these but there arnt.

And the problem you think doesn't exist has already been solved (quite simply) by the railways on mainland Europe... why is it so hard for railways in the UK to do the same?

 

[Mojo]

Finally, I would also doubt many real people know of the existence of sites like Realtime trains, they are going to use National Rail or the Train line for information. Most people simply dont care about all the stuff on those sites and just want the timetable.

Conversely, look at how many people access data on real time bus information in London through independently developed Apps and websites as opposed to through the 'official' TfL website.

TfL have positively encouraged developers to make use of their data; in the long run that has the potential to save them money as they don't need to hire in expensive designers or whatever as someone else is willing to do the work for free! It's also beneficial for customers, or potential customers, who can have the information delivered to them in the format they want. For example, I downloaded about 10 different bus departures Apps before settling on the one which actually works best for me.

 

[A-driver]

Can't help but feel access to TOPS/Genius etc gives some people a feeling of superiority over rail enthusiasts.

And can't also help but note when people mention other countries providing such information it's continuously ignored.

I don't see where any posts have given this impression really-I can't say I even know what tops or genius are so doubt I have access to them.

Why are we comparing ourselves to other countries? I don't see the relevance of what other countries do. Its not being ignored-just irrelevant.

Like I have asked a few times but with no answer-has anyone looked into approaching the industry to get hold of this data? Has anyone ever actually been told 'no way, that's classified'?

In an ideal world all this info would be avaliable and platforms would be fully marked up so people knew exactly where to stand. Plus everyone would que properly so the first to arrive on the platform is the first to get on. Also, in this ideal world everyone would get a seat, there would be free food and drink on all trains, no disruption, all trains would be air conditioned etc etc, but this is the real world and what is being asked for in this thread really isn't a priority.

I still can't see any real argument for this, it really does coma across more as enthusiasts wanting access to info which they currently don't have. The arguments about it benefitting passengers are very small.

 

[transmanche]

Why are we comparing ourselves to other countries? I don't see the relevance of what other countries do. Its not being ignored-just irrelevant.

And sadly this is a classic example of a head-in-the-sands attitude. Has it never occurred to you that you can learn from what other countries do?

 

[bb21]

Why are we comparing ourselves to other countries? I don't see the relevance of what other countries do. Its not being ignored-just irrelevant.

Why should we not learn from good practice in other countries? It allows us to see where things can be improved and progress with time.

Like I have asked a few times but with no answer-has anyone looked into approaching the industry to get hold of this data? Has anyone ever actually been told 'no way, that's classified'?

I don't know about this one. Much of the discussion in this thread is in response to the attitude displayed by some that can be best illustrated using your phrase. There will be others better placed to answer this.

In an ideal world all this info would be avaliable and platforms would be fully marked up so people knew exactly where to stand.

This should not be difficult to achieve without costing the earth. This is not all about positioning oneself correctly on the platform. It seems that the point about making real-time information regarding onboard facilities available to the travelling public easily overlooked. It is about making best use of what information is available at the moment.

Plus everyone would que properly so the first to arrive on the platform is the first to get on. Also, in this ideal world everyone would get a seat, there would be free food and drink on all trains, no disruption, all trains would be air conditioned etc etc, but this is the real world and what is being asked for in this thread really isn't a priority.

Much of this, however, is not realistic as opposed to the point above. It would be nice to have them but the country is broke so there is simply no money to make these things happen across board.

I still can't see any real argument for this, it really does coma across more as enthusiasts wanting access to info which they currently don't have. The arguments about it benefitting passengers are very small.

Then I am afraid you have totally missed the point some people have been trying to make.

 

[A-driver]

I'm bored of this discussion going around in circles now. I havnt said the info shouldn't be made public, just said its not really necessary as the benefits are very minor.

I am also waiting to find out the answer to my question as to if anyone has actually asked to access the info without the industry picking up the bill for it but no one has answered that. Until someone can this discussion is utterly pointless as you are arguing something that may not need arguing.

I stand by my point from earlier that this just seems like spotters wanting access to info they currently don't have. Still not seen any real arguments for the info being made public. Knowing where to stand in the platform with a bike or first class ticket etc isnt really worth it-most people already know and those that don't are in a minority and I can assure you this dosnt cause delays or increased dwell times, as I said earlier, if it did the industry would address the problem.

Yes we can learn from other countries but this is a really insignificant thing that people are asking for. I 100% stand by my point that people are trying to solve a problem which really dosnt exist!

 

[Llanigraham]

I use TRUST all the time in my job, and agree with everything that A-driver says. I can see no justification raised in this thread other than by a bunch of spotters who seem to want to be superior.

And to be honest the information in just one of the TRUST screens that shows unit formats would be unintelligable to 99.9% of the public. Most of it is even beyond our requirements!

Get over it people, it won't happen.

 

[jon0844]

I do think the railway has an obligation to provide useful information to the public, and doing so in one single place has to be even better than checking printed timetables (to see how long a train should be), looking online to check times, Tweeting to ask if there's a toilet or bike storage facilities etc. That's what I'd do - but not most people.

I can see that a third party app will probably end up doing this, with opentraintimes being quite close already.

No, most people don't need to know the class of train or its number - but knowing the type of train and the facilities offered may benefit many. Knowing if a train has a toilet could be vital for some, and if a train doesn't then you can know to go before you travel and take it into account - or if you don't feel comfortable, look for another service earlier/later (and, again, such an app might let you do route planning based on things you require).

The railway also has a duty to make information clearer on platforms. That seems to be, slowly, happening and that makes a huge difference. I also agree that information as to where a train stops at some stations and where your coach will be on a 9/10/11/12 car train is useful - especially for people who have lots of luggage, children or are just a bit less mobile than the rest of us (and don't necessarily want or need to ask for special assistance if a sign - fixed or digital - could help).

All the other stuff that could be given is silly (like mobile numbers) but some of the info that isn't readily available would be. I might have a fair few bookmarks and numbers, as well as Twitter accounts, I can call upon but if I think of my parents - I know my mum would likely get one single app on her iPhone and rely on that. She wouldn't be Tweeting anyone, or calling a TOC directly (if she even knew who the TOC was when going beyond her own local line).

 

[asylumxl]

I use TRUST all the time in my job, and agree with everything that A-driver says. I can see no justification raised in this thread other than by a bunch of spotters who seem to want to be superior.

And to be honest the information in just one of the TRUST screens that shows unit formats would be unintelligable to 99.9% of the public. Most of it is even beyond our requirements!

Get over it people, it won't happen.

Do you have a superiority complex or something?

 

[Llanigraham]

No, just the correct attitude as becomes a professional railway signaller, and not a spotter.

 

[asylumxl]

No, just the correct attitude as becomes a professional railway signaller, and not a spotter.

Professional? The tone of your previous message says otherwise.

You're also posting under the assumption everyone but the obvious railway staff are spotters. . Pray tell how you came to that conclusion?

Superiority complex . You need help.