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Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

TheWierdOne

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Andy Burnham was in Germany yesterday, the Russian threat has moved the goalposts, and the view reading Germany news in English is that they want UK to be back close to Europe.

Apparently the view that Britain needs to penalised from Brexit has gone, and working to get closer ties back, is now the aim only German side (and personally I think Burnham understands the economic disaster from Brexit to)

My gut feeling is these are evidence of the initial physical rejoin plan, not that anyone dares announce Brexit reversal yet. Public need to slowly convert mindset though gradual improving the links between countries
Oh yes I totally forgot Citizen Burnham was hobnobbing with the chancellor yesterday. That probably has a lot to do with it, given he does have a reputation for public transport.

Edit: I believe that visit included ratifying the agreement that will allow British citizens to use German ePassport gates, which will help with the logistics of the immigration processes no doubt.
 
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Snow1964

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Alstom will also service the trains under a 30-year maintenance contract.
Interestingly the Virgin Press Release says secured track access until at least 2040, and they have signed a 30 year maintenance agreement with Alstom (which would therefore run until nearer 2060). The have obviously calculated risk that trains might end up being used elsewhere after 2040

Under a landmark agreement with French rail group Alstom, spanning the delivery of 12 trains, Virgin will operate a fleet of Avelia Stream trainsets capable of travelling at speeds of up to 300km/h, with customised interiors designed for cross-Channel travel.
No indication if train is 200m, 400m or some other length

Virgin Atlantic’s Clubhouses will help inspire pre-departure and onboard social spaces, giving passengers more flexibility to work, relax or socialise in style.
pre-departure, does that mean some sort of station departure lounge ? and if so where will it be in those cramped station waiting areas

 

Sorcerer

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Well if there were any doubt about the Virgin-Alstom deal I’d say it’s fully confirmed now. Virgin have released the first renders of what their trains will look like. I must say I rather like the livery.

View attachment 212999

https://www.virgin.com/media-centre...f-new-cross-channel-service-planned-from-2030



And in other news, from the same release, although I cannae find anything on the ORR website.
I have mixed feelings. It's very reminiscent of the 1990s Virgin Trains livery, and the flag effects are quite nice. But the lack of contrasting doors (I think white could've worked here) along with the big Virgin logo sort of make it look a bit unprofessional. But it's better than the original red and white concept in my opinion.
 

zwk500

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But the lack of contrasting doors (I think white could've worked here) along with the big Virgin logo sort of make it look a bit unprofessional.
Presumably they'll need to adjust that to meet the PRM TSI (Persons with Disability and reduced Mobility Technical Specification for Interoperability), as Clause 4.2.2.3.2 (3) says:
All exterior passenger doorways shall be marked on the outside in a way that gives a contrast to the vehicle body-side surrounding them.
 

cle

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I can't imagine they will have Clubhouses. But maybe the train could have one, for business passengers - could be quite a flex. If you could earn VS / KL / AF / DL air/sky miles too, that would attract a huge amount of users. Americans keep Eurostar running practically, the demand is massive - and so many do open jaw trips (business and leisure) - and this would see many decamp from Eurostar.

But it would also grab the frequent flier members from their domestic markets (France, Netherlands) - Virgin Atlantic being the junior partner in this mix.
 

BRX

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I have mixed feelings. It's very reminiscent of the 1990s Virgin Trains livery, and the flag effects are quite nice. But the lack of contrasting doors (I think white could've worked here) along with the big Virgin logo sort of make it look a bit unprofessional. But it's better than the original red and white concept in my opinion.

I don't think there's much point thinking too much about the details of that image, which someone probably made in about 15 minutes with chatGPT.
 

30907

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Perhaps the more interesting news on the Chunnel front is that moves are afoot regarding services to Köln Hbf. That is to say, the horrendously overworked station that Jon Worth thought London services would be impossible to run from.

Supposedly the plan is to install the ability to close off the southern half of platform 5 (enough for a 200m train, presumably) and access this via a new bridge from a terminal building outside the station. It's...bold.
They'd also have to close 4 as it's an island :)
 

chris2

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Thanks for posting I was reading that earlier.
I do think they have got the travel time wrong. London to Köln shouldn't take much more than four and a quarter hours. I suspect the 5 to 6 hours quoted is from London to Frankfurt (or possibly not taking into account the time difference!)

For sure, here’s tomorrow’s itinerary for the journey…

London St Pancras 11:04 -> Brussels Midi 14:05 (2hr 1min)
Bruxelles Midi 14:25 -> Köln 16:15 (1hr 50mins)

Total time: 4hr 11mins (incl. 20min change at Brussels)
 

danshrimp

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Is the platform wide enough to not do that if you are only allowing passengers up to the platform when the train has arrived? You could potentially get away with a partition down the middle of the island?
Jon reckons it's doable at the northern end, but not at the southern end which is what is supposedly being discussed: https://jonworth.eu/trains-to-london-from-gleis-5-at-koln-hbf-its-bold/ (Of course as it stands this all seems to be coming from one journalist, so the details may not be perfect.)

Trains to London from Gleis 5 at Köln Hbf? It's bold

The Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger put out an intriguing article yesterday, stating that four trains a day could depart Köln Hbf for London in the 2030s, and this will be done from Gleis 5 (Platform 5) at the station, and passengers will get to the platform from a terminal building on a new bridge.

This idea is bold and it is interesting, and it is not a way to solve the Köln Hbf - London headaches I had previously thought of. When I wrote my #CrossChannelRail report late last year, I concluded Köln Hbf was just too complicated to solve, and that building a London terminal at Köln/Bonn Flughafen station, or even Horrem, would make more sense.

I would also encourage anyone not deep into the technicalities of all of this to read my report, as it explains in some depth some of the other aspects of the Channel Tunnel conundrums that this article will only briefly touch with regard to Köln Hbf.

The most important is the need to conduct both bag scans and border controls before a passenger boards a train heading towards the UK. Argue all you like whether those rules make sense, but everything I write about this topic takes them as given.

Having the map of Köln Hbf from OpenRailwayMap open might also help make some of this make sense.

Anyway to the core issue: what problem does Gleis 5 solve?

The direction of the tracks. The only platform - Gleis 1 - that anyone had considered in Köln Hbf has a track that heads east, while a train departing towards London needs to go west. No one had any workable solutions for this (crossing the Rhein three times is not sensible, but I did look at the idea!) and crossing half a dozen live tracks at a chronically overloaded station to exit Gleis 1 the wrong way is a non starter. Gleis 5 does not have this problem - you can exit from there directly towards Aachen and Bruxelles.

But that then brings other headaches. On the other side of Gleis 5 is Gleis 4:

[A DB ICE3neo waits at Gleis 5 Köln Hbf. To the right a regional train is seen at Gleis 4. Also note the steps that can be seen here - those are relevant. Picture is looking south east.]

The way to solve this is to somehow split the platform into two halves, with some sort of glass dividing wall - to prevent passengers from each part mixing.

Sadly I seem to never have photographed it properly, but Bruxelles Midi has a system like this between platforms 3 and 4, that can just about be seen to the left of this picture:

[Passengers board a train to Paris at Platform 4. The rolling door and glass wall to the left prevents passengers getting to Platform 3. View looking north at Bruxelles Midi.]

This system means that Platform 3 can be secured to allow passengers to board an Amsterdam to London train here, in the same way passengers could board a Frankfurt - London service at Köln Hbf.

But there is a further issue at Köln Hbf: the stairs and the escalators. The main ones are towards the south east end of the platforms, and the space for passengers to pass them is extremely restricted, as you can see here:

[Picture taken on Köln Hbf Gleis 5, looking towards 4, and 3-2 and 1. Note how much of the total platform width the barriers for the staircases take up.]

So building some sort of dividing barriers here is not going to work as they are going to cause even more congestion at the times when the platforms are not to be used by London trains.

A complex and expensive solution (that would make sense anyway, regardless of London trains) would be the make all the passenger platforms wider, eliminating the service platform used to supply dining cars - that you can see here:

[The service platform - the low tarmac area - between Gleis 5 and Gleis 6, looking north west. There is a similar platform between Gleis 3 and Gleis 4 (not shown).]

But to do this you would have to shift the running tracks closer together, and I do not even know if metal sort of bridge structure below the tracks can even bear the change in weight to enable that. So this way forward is neat, but probably out of the question.

But the picture above does provide a different way to solve the problem: how about securing only half of Gleis 5?

According to DB InfraGo data, Gleis 5 is 485m long (data here). And for one train set, you need just 200m. So you could secure only the part of the platform shown in green here:


[Screenshot of OpenRailwayMap of Köln Hbf, with the position of what would need to be secured shown in green.]

The Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger article implies a part of the platform solution, but says the south eastern part, but I cannot see how that can work given the issues with the staircases I outline above, but the north western part would, at a push work - so I am pursuing that in more depth here.

Bear in mind that trains having to be changed to other platforms at Köln Hbf is a common occurrence, so perhaps a solution to use Gleis 4 as well as a backup for Gleis 5 might make sense. And that - even with the S-Bahn expansion plans - Köln Hbf is going to be a horribly congested station, both for passengers confronted with narrow platforms and passageways, and operators who struggle to secure adequate paths through the station, make any plans for London tricky.

But by now you're probably thinking: this only deals with platforms. What about the terminal where border controls and bag scans would happen?

Supposedly these would happen in a separate building somewhere, and passengers would then reach Gleis 5 on a new bridge. Somewhere here I presume?

[Screenshot of Google Maps satellite view, with the location of a possible footbridge shown in green]

We know a solution like this - all the check in procedures in a building, then passengers descend to a temporarily secured platform - does work, as Eurostar does this at Rotterdam Centraal already (more about this in my #CrossChannelRail report).

The headache of course is you are going to want a lot more passengers boarding in Köln (likely up to 550 per train) than in Rotterdam (currently limited to 165 per train), and especially if Eurostar ends up running slow to board double deck trains on this route, that is going to take a while. Stadt-Anzeiger talks of occupying a platform for 30 minutes, but that strikes me rather on the high side!

Operationally though, if any company gets anywhere near actually doing all of this, we know two things: they will operate 200m long trains (either single trains, or a 2x200m formation), and will want to serve Frankfurt am Main as well as Köln.

Securing the north western end of Gleis 5 at Köln Hbf opens up an interesting operational model. One 200m train would wait there, and passengers board. And then a second 200m train would arrive from Frankfurt (Main) Hbf at the south eastern end of the platform and doors would remain closed, and then once the units are coupled they depart together towards Aachen and onwards to the Channel Tunnel.

Would all of this work?

I am not at all convinced. Torsten, a follower of mine on social media, sums it all up best: "That seems both like the only practical way to do this and a horrible mistake at the same time." I could not put it any better!

But the idea is new, and it is bold, and it deserves some consideration. This article is my contribution, and as and when more facts emerge I will update this accordingly.
 

TheWierdOne

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Jon reckons it's doable at the northern end, but not at the southern end which is what is supposedly being discussed: https://jonworth.eu/trains-to-london-from-gleis-5-at-koln-hbf-its-bold/ (Of course as it stands this all seems to be coming from one journalist, so the details may not be perfect.)
I think German article mentioned renovations coming into play so perhaps they will sneak in some platform widening, or as Jon suggests close off the southern half of both platforms, although that would be an operational nightmare for DB
 

dorsetmagpie

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I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere but last week Sadiq Khan wrote a column in CityAM stating his preference for re-opening international services at Stratford rather than a 3rd runway at Heathrow, and that discussions are advancing... No details whatsoever and it raises more questions than it answers, but interesting to see him state this so publically.

"My team and I have been lobbying for this for years – and I’m proud to say that our efforts are close to paying off. Over the last few months, my team and I have been working with this new government to make Stratford International truly ‘international’ for the first time and we’re now within touching distance of getting our plans over the line."

 

zwk500

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I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere but last week Sadiq Khan wrote a column in CityAM stating his preference for re-opening international services at Stratford rather than a 3rd runway at Heathrow, and that discussions are advancing... No details whatsoever and it raises more questions than it answers, but interesting to see him state this so publically.

"My team and I have been lobbying for this for years – and I’m proud to say that our efforts are close to paying off. Over the last few months, my team and I have been working with this new government to make Stratford International truly ‘international’ for the first time and we’re now within touching distance of getting our plans over the line."

Interesting bits in there, especially in the linked answer at city hall:
we have to recognise the opportunity provided by people who are now competing with Eurostar in terms of cross-Channel service and stuff

Which suggests the Mayor is targeting Virgin or Trenitalia to stop there, rather than Eurostar. Will be interesting to see which operator decides the costs of including Stratford are worth it, if any.
 

Mikey C

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I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere but last week Sadiq Khan wrote a column in CityAM stating his preference for re-opening international services at Stratford rather than a 3rd runway at Heathrow, and that discussions are advancing... No details whatsoever and it raises more questions than it answers, but interesting to see him state this so publically.

"My team and I have been lobbying for this for years – and I’m proud to say that our efforts are close to paying off. Over the last few months, my team and I have been working with this new government to make Stratford International truly ‘international’ for the first time and we’re now within touching distance of getting our plans over the line."

It’s not hard to understand why three times more Brits support increasing international rail services over expanding airports.

Slightly sceptical about quotes like this. Obviously lots of people might be anti Heathrow expansion, but it doesn't follow that they'll give up their flights in the future.

And while Stratford International would be handy for a few people, would cross channel traffic increase that much because of it? Even around Stratford and East London, most people when travelling abroad will be flying as most parts of the world can't be reached by high speed rail.
 

Sorcerer

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Would Stratford International really allow such a significant modal shift to justify abandoning Heathrow's third runway? I don't think so. I'd also like to know who Sadiq Khan expects to pay for the international border facilities at the station, because Eurostar aren't interested, I doubt Virgin and Trenitalia will be interested, and based on the desire to reduce subsidy I highly doubt the Department for Transport will be interested. I guess that leaves City Hall.
 

TheWierdOne

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Would Stratford International really allow such a significant modal shift to justify abandoning Heathrow's third runway? I don't think so. I'd also like to know who Sadiq Khan expects to pay for the international border facilities at the station, because Eurostar aren't interested, I doubt Virgin and Trenitalia will be interested, and based on the desire to reduce subsidy I highly doubt the Department for Transport will be interested. I guess that leaves City Hall.
Maybe you could work it to allow secure transfers and through bookings with flights from CDG?
 

Oxfordblues

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Much talk on the radio today about speculation over the UK rejoining the EU. A lot of ill-informed allegations about having to join the Euro currency, but (significantly for this thread) also joining the Schengen Area. This would, if it really happened, eliminate the need for border checks at European stations such as Koln Hbf and open-up opportunities for more through-running

It would also, at a stroke, solve the small boats issue - but that's for another thread!
 

Sorcerer

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Much talk on the radio today about speculation over the UK rejoining the EU. A lot of ill-informed allegations about having to join the Euro currency, but (significantly for this thread) also joining the Schengen Area. This would, if it really happened, eliminate the need for border checks at European stations such as Koln Hbf and open-up opportunities for more through-running
Schengen would make cross-Channel travel substantially easier and also have paved the way for proper Eurostar competition much earlier because then you could just turn up with your ticket and travel like on a normal train rather than having to check-in and wait like an airport which means passengers aren't maxing out the capacity at St Pancras. It would also mean that Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford could be reopened because then they could act like normal railway stations with no cost of border controls, and the HS1-HS2 link would've had a stronger business case.

I would go even further and argue that joining Schengen is the only way to properly replace some short-haul European flights which may be necessary in meeting our net zero climate goals, because otherwise the convenience of spontaneous city-to-city travel that you get with trains are partly lost with the airport-style experience and border checks. However there is a lot more to the politics of Schengen than simply streamlining European rail travel, as has been highlighted elsewhere on the forums and would need it's own discussion entirely.
 

AlastairFraser

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Would Stratford International really allow such a significant modal shift to justify abandoning Heathrow's third runway? I don't think so. I'd also like to know who Sadiq Khan expects to pay for the international border facilities at the station, because Eurostar aren't interested, I doubt Virgin and Trenitalia will be interested, and based on the desire to reduce subsidy I highly doubt the Department for Transport will be interested. I guess that leaves City Hall.
Is it really that expensive for the GLA to subsidise Stratford International if it wanted? It would be an incredible selling point for Stratford as another peripheral business or banking district with further development, and you could consider a tax to capture the increase in property values as a result to help fund the operational costs of the border.
 

Sorcerer

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Is it really that expensive for the GLA to subsidise Stratford International if it wanted? It would be an incredible selling point for Stratford as another peripheral business or banking district with further development, and you could consider a tax to capture the increase in property values as a result to help fund the operational costs of the border.
That's a cost-benefit analysis that they would have to carry out themselves, but I doubt Stratford becoming a truly international station would be London's top priority even with regards to transport. I also wouldn't expect the Mayor to be as keen on calling to reopen it if he suspected it would actually happen or that the cost would ultimately fall on Londoners. Then there's still the question as to whether or not it could be a proper alternative to a third runway at Heathrow as originally suggested because it would require a significant modal shift that I'm just not sure would be possible under such a plan.
 

HSTEd

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How can you "re"open Stratford to international services, as far as I know there have never been any? Isn't the international terminal just an empty concrete box?

I can't see it making a meaningful difference to the popularity of the Chunnel services, personally.
I personally think its just a carrot politicians dangle, and companies tangle to get politicians to back their schemes.
 

Krokodil

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A lot of ill-informed allegations about having to join the Euro currency
We'd be under the same obligations as any other member bar Denmark.

Of course Sweden, Poland, Czechia, Romania etc. haven't yet joined despite those obligations. Looking through the requirements, our public finances would have to be in a damned sight better state than they currently are in order to qualify.

As for Stratford, the only two justifications I can see for the station are:

1. As the London stop for NoL Eurostars.
2. If St Pancras can't handle five full trains' worth of passengers per hour and the solution is to have a couple of them stop at the intermediate stations to allow a few hundred passengers to board elsewhere instead.
 

AlastairFraser

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That's a cost-benefit analysis that they would have to carry out themselves, but I doubt Stratford becoming a truly international station would be London's top priority even with regards to transport. I also wouldn't expect the Mayor to be as keen on calling to reopen it if he suspected it would actually happen or that the cost would ultimately fall on Londoners. Then there's still the question as to whether or not it could be a proper alternative to a third runway at Heathrow as originally suggested because it would require a significant modal shift that I'm just not sure would be possible under such a plan.
I wouldn't say it's London's top priority for transport right now, that's probably Crossrail 2 and/or the Euston HS2 enabling works, but it would be fairly popular, especially with Stratford International's DLR connections to the Docklands.
Now, whether he'd want to fork out for it, is another thing!
I don't think it's a proper alternative to a 3rd runway either, but then I don't think central government or local/regional government has the willpower to deliver a lasting solution at Foulness or a similar site.
If St Pancras can't handle five full trains' worth of passengers per hour and the solution is to have a couple of them stop at the intermediate stations to allow a few hundred passengers to board elsewhere instead.
This seems much more realistic, especially with 3 potential competing operators through the Channel Tunnel in the future, and the limited capacity of St Pancras Eurostar, unless we find a suitable alternative for EMR services somewhere.
 

Cach17

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This seems much more realistic, especially with 3 potential competing operators through the Channel Tunnel in the future, and the limited capacity of St Pancras Eurostar, unless we find a suitable alternative for EMR services somewhere.
There's no track connecting platforms 1-4 at STP with HS1, so even if there were a suitable alternative for EMR (there isn't), moving them out wouldn't solve anything.
 

AlastairFraser

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There's no track connecting platforms 1-4 at STP with HS1, so even if there were a suitable alternative for EMR (there isn't), moving them out wouldn't solve anything.
Then I cannot see any viable alternative once St Pancras Eurostar is expanded to a level that it cannot accommodate any further growth
 

Mikey C

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It would be bizarre
2. If St Pancras can't handle five full trains' worth of passengers per hour and the solution is to have a couple of them stop at the intermediate stations to allow a few hundred passengers to board elsewhere instead.
That's the only reason I could think of. Certainly I can't see central government being interested in paying for a second London station, when neither Kent not North of London have an international service
 

popeter45

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tracks are not an issue at STP, only passenger processing so could a feeder service work?
e.g. a few locations that can process channel tunnel passengers that then all have "airside" trains that head too st Pancras for transfer too Eurostar/Virgin/Trentalia? kind of like how there are feeder services too Heathrow for International Flights
could serve from Stratford, Kensington, Manchester, Birmingham etc
 

Farigiraf

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but it would be fairly popular, especially with Stratford International's DLR connections to the Docklands.
No direct connection to Canary Wharf though, which is where the majority of business traffic to the Docklands will be going. Connecting to/from the GEML or Elizabeth Line also probably wouldn't be too popular, as I'm not sure many non-rail enthusiasts would find the 10 min walk (longer if you have luggage, kids, or get lost on the way) through Westfield too pleasant when you're in a rush to get through border control in time.

That's not to say it wouldn't be a busy station - capacity on Eurostar is still far below demand so pretty much any train through London is going to be filled up, assuming the fares aren't too extortionate. But if we accept that terminating/starting Channel Tunnel services at SFA is a terrible idea, as it's just not designed for it, then those seats which would be filled by Stratford passengers would be taken away from St Pancras passengers, which isn't a great idea since demand from STP to Continental Europe is basically unlimited as long as you price the fares competitively against airlines.

For any potential 'Regional Eurostar' UK to Continental Europe services (which does require Schengen and a HS1-HS2 link, so 2050 at the earliest), I'd imagine that turnover at Stratford International would be quite high, as unless you somehow price London travellers off the services, at least half of the passengers would be getting on/off there.
 

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