Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Bald Rick]

not only that but the domestic platforms in the middle are half the length of the international platforms.

Point of order m’lud, domestic platforms are 290m, international 410m.

(As per sectional appendix).

 

[zwk500]

Point of order m’lud, domestic platforms are 290m, international 410m.

(As per sectional appendix).

Upheld!

 

[JonasB]

The international facilities at Stratford are not really lying idle, most of them do not exist!

They will need an awful lot of money to pay to finish the terminal and then operate it, unless they expect the government to provide a major additional subsidy.

More money than is needed to expand St Pancras?

 

[HSTEd]

More money than is needed to expand St Pancras?

Well that depends on the scope of the works to expand St Pancras.

Although I doubt either option is affordable!

 

[Bald Rick]

More money than is needed to expand St Pancras?

Considerably.

 

[Snow1964]

Eurostar has opened two new premier lounges, at Paris and Brussels.
Clearly trying to enhance the rail journey experience (maybe just a coincidence that potential competition might be coming).

Two of Europe’s busiest high-speed rail terminals have received a premium upgrade as Eurostar unveils newly refurbished Premier lounges in Paris and Brussels. These redesigned spaces are now open to eligible travelers, offering enhanced comfort, modern amenities, and a refined experience ahead of their journey.

The renovation marks a significant step in the company’s efforts to improve customer service and the overall travel experience. By blending regional design influences with contemporary comfort, the updated lounges now offer an inviting, sophisticated environment for international passengers.

Refined Interiors with Local Character

The refreshed lounges incorporate aesthetic cues inspired by their respective cities. From the furniture choices to the color palettes and layout, each lounge reflects a distinct local flavor, giving travelers a sense of place even before they step aboard. Subtle nods to local culture are embedded in the materials and artistic elements used throughout the interiors.

Both locations now feature expanded seating zones to accommodate more travelers during peak hours. Quiet nooks allow guests to relax or work in peace, while shared spaces promote a social and leisurely atmosphere for those traveling in groups. The goal is to balance utility and elegance while meeting the diverse needs of modern passengers.

Elevated Amenities for a Premium Journey

Among the enhancements are dedicated bar areas where guests can enjoy a curated selection of beverages in a stylish setting. Complementing these are self-service stations offering a choice of teas and freshly brewed coffee, allowing passengers to refresh at their convenience.

Travelers can also enjoy complimentary light snacks and an assortment of reading materials, creating a welcoming pre-departure environment. Whether preparing for a long trip or simply seeking a moment of calm, the upgraded facilities deliver comfort without compromise.

Access to the lounges is available to those traveling in the highest service class offered by the rail operator, as well as members of the company’s upper-tier loyalty programs. Guests may enter up to two hours before their scheduled departure, providing ample time to unwind or prepare for the journey ahead.

I cannot find any reference to any newly refurbished premier lounge at London, possibly one is coming later.

Eurostar Redefines Luxury Rail Travel With Stunning Premier Lounge Transformations In Paris And Brussels - Travel And Tour World

Eurostar unveils revamped Premier lounges in Paris and Brussels, blending luxury, local design, and eco-friendly upgrades for a premium pre-departure experience.

www.travelandtourworld.com

 

[Farnborough]

Could Stratford replace St Pancras as the gateway to Europe?

Exclusive: ’We think it's a bit of a jewel in the crown’ says Gemini Trains CEO Adrian Quine

www.independent.co.uk

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

 

[martin2345uk]

Latest update from the ORR:

More cross-channel rail services coming down the track | Office of Rail and Road

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has today written to Eurostar and new applicants seeking to run cross-channel rail services, to set out next steps for assigning access to Temple Mills International depot (TMI). Access to TMI is considered crucial to providing services from the UK to the continent.

www.orr.gov.uk

ORR has now reviewed this evidence and concluded that the independent assessment is an accurate reflection of available capacity at TMI. Taken together with Eurostar and applicants’ initial plans, the assessment suggests there is room for at most one new operator, or for Eurostar to grow.

 

[Sorcerer]

"At most one new operator" is interesting seeing as there are multiple operators eyeing up cross-channel services. Between Virgin, Evolyn, Gemini and Trenitalia (assuming I'm not mistakenly missing or adding any) then the most likely winner for access to paths for Eurostar competition in my opinion would be Trenitalia. They already have experience in high-speed rail operations, both domestic and international, and will more easily be able to procure rolling stock for their services by simply buying more Frecciarossa 1000 units albeit with some modifications for Channel Tunnel and UK usage. I think SNCF will probably be a bigger obstacle, though I wouldn't put it past Virgin to seek court action.

 

[zwk500]

The key points I take from it are the comment on the limit of capacity, including a strong nudge for the operators to look at expanding depot capacity somehow:

12.Several responses to the consultation noted that the level of capacity identified by ORR to date is unlikely to be sufficient to accommodate all of the aspirations articulated by new applicants and by Eurostar. Several respondents noted the need for wider investment and changes in approach in order to relieve this constraint. While it is outside the scope of the section 17 process for ORR to direct on such matters, we would stress to all parties that our continuation of that process does not preclude the parties working together on alternative and agreeable solutions.

and the timescales at the end:

Next Steps
18. ORR has developed the following plan for decision making on the section 17 applications

• Invite further information, clarifications and representations from all applicants, Eurostar and interested persons/parties with a wider interest - to be received by 3 July 2025​

• Invite replies to these representations - to be received by 31 July 2025 • ORR to consider all representations, consider if further clarifications are required, and assess applications - by 30 September 2025​

• ORR to issue access decisions - by 31 October 2025.​

19.In the week commencing 9 June 2025 we plan to:

• write to all those that have submitted section 17 applications requesting specific information to support their application and any other clarification we may require;​

• write to Eurostar and invite it to set out its plans for future use of TMI; and​

• write to all interested persons/parties with a wider interest inviting their representations.​

 

[Peterthegreat]

Very Anglo-Centric.
How can ORR choose an operator without agreement of the French/Belgian/Dutch/German etc authorities?

 

[Trainbike46]

Very Anglo-Centric.
How can ORR choose an operator without agreement of the French/Belgian/Dutch/German etc authorities?

As I understand it, the ORR wouldn't be choosing an operator - they would be choosing who gets the spare capacity at Temple Mills depot in the UK, to enable international operations.

If someone were to open a new depot, or come up with an operational plan that doesn't require a depot in the UK, they would be able to run without this specific flavour of ORR involvement. And if a similar question of depot access were to come up in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, or Germany, presumably that would be handled by the relevant local authority?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Very Anglo-Centric.
How can ORR choose an operator without agreement of the French/Belgian/Dutch/German etc authorities?

One would assume that, given the UK is the bottleneck (in terms of maintenance at least), prospective operators would start with getting approval from the UK. It’s also possible that discussions with the Europeans have been taking place, and it just hasn’t been reported in the British press.

 

[Peterthegreat]

As I understand it, the ORR wouldn't be choosing an operator - they would be choosing who gets the spare capacity at Temple Mills depot in the UK, to enable international operations.

If someone were to open a new depot, or come up with an operational plan that doesn't require a depot in the UK, they would be able to run without this specific flavour of ORR involvement. And if a similar question of depot access were to come up in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, or Germany, presumably that would be handled by the relevant local authority?

Giving access to Temple Mills to someone who doesn't get access on the continent would be highly embarrassing for ORR.

 

[zwk500]

Very Anglo-Centric.
How can ORR choose an operator without agreement of the French/Belgian/Dutch/German etc authorities?

Because the ORR has a clearly defined process and clearly defined decision criteria against which it will be judging each application, and then judging applications against each other.

In particular, this criterion:

Criteria	Relevant Duties	Evidence Required.
Operational readiness and viability	Promote efficiency and economy on the part of persons providing railway services.	Delivery plans demonstrating clear intent and ability to use the capacity promptly. Explanation of progress towards securing other necessary access agreements and regulatory approvals

Will need to be satisfied. Any operator applying for access to Temple Mills will need to satisfy the ORR it's got all it's other ducks in a row to begin operating internationally 'promptly'.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Because the ORR has a clearly defined process and clearly defined decision criteria against which it will be judging each application, and then judging applications against each other.

In particular, this criterion:

Criteria	Relevant Duties	Evidence Required.
Operational readiness and viability	Promote efficiency and economy on the part of persons providing railway services.	Delivery plans demonstrating clear intent and ability to use the capacity promptly. Explanation of progress towards securing other necessary access agreements and regulatory approvals

Will need to be satisfied. Any operator applying for access to Temple Mills will need to satisfy the ORR it's got all it's other ducks in a row to begin operating internationally 'promptly'.

With that in mind, is there any indication that the potential operators have applied to France, Belgium and other countries to gain access rights?

As it stands the only potential Eurostar challenger that we can say definitely has some dialogue with SNCF Réseau (but not anyone else afaik) would be the Italians through their open access operation between Milan and Paris

 

[Bald Rick]

The ORR has a specific dury to liase with regulators / capacity allocation bodies on the continent. I’m sure the individual who wrote the letter published today will have ddone, and continue to do, just that. Check out his job title.

 

[Snow1964]

Eurostar has given update on proposed new routes, Frankfurt via Cologne, and Geneva to be served by its 50 new trains

Also released details of 4th daily Amsterdam service from September, 5th from December

Eurostar, the high-speed train service that connects the UK to continental Europe, has announced an exciting expansion plan that will see direct train services linking London with Germany and Switzerland. In what the company describes as the dawn of a “new golden age of international sustainable travel,” Eurostar is set to begin operating services between London St Pancras and two major European financial hubs—Frankfurt, Germany, and Geneva, Switzerland. This ambitious project, expected to kick off in the early 2030s, promises to bring a new level of convenience and sustainability to cross-border travel.

The Scope of Eurostar’s Expansion​

Eurostar’s plans involve introducing direct train routes that will significantly reduce travel times between key cities in Europe. The train journey between London and Frankfurt is expected to take approximately five hours, while the London-Geneva route will take around five hours and 20 minutes. These times will be notably faster than many current options available, providing travelers with an alternative to air travel that is both quicker and more environmentally friendly.

The routes will be served by a fleet of up to 50 new trains, with an estimated investment of around €2 billion (approximately £1.7 billion). This expansion is not only a step towards improving cross-border rail travel but also a vital part of Eurostar’s strategy to enhance sustainability in the travel industry.

The exact details of the stops along these routes are still under discussion, including potential halts in cities like Cologne, Germany, for the Frankfurt route. It remains unclear whether passengers will be able to board or disembark at intermediate stops, but the plans are part of Eurostar’s wider vision for more efficient international rail travel in Europe.

Germany, Switzerland, and the UK Set to Explode Travel with New Direct Train Routes – A Bold Leap for the Future of European Tourism - Travel And Tour World

Eurostar announces new direct train services linking the UK with Germany and Switzerland, marking the start of a "new golden age" of international sustainable travel, with faster, greener options for travelers.

www.travelandtourworld.com

 

[TheWierdOne]

Eurostar has given update on proposed new routes, Frankfurt via Cologne, and Geneva to be served by its 50 new trains

Also released details of 4th daily Amsterdam service from September, 5th from December

Germany, Switzerland, and the UK Set to Explode Travel with New Direct Train Routes – A Bold Leap for the Future of European Tourism - Travel And Tour World

Eurostar announces new direct train services linking the UK with Germany and Switzerland, marking the start of a "new golden age" of international sustainable travel, with faster, greener options for travelers.

www.travelandtourworld.com

Interesting that Eurostar suddenly believe that Switzerland and Germany are viable. I wonder what’s changed internally for them.

Does this affect the ORR’s decision making or is that purely on current usage?

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting that Eurostar suddenly believe that Switzerland and Germany are viable. I wonder what’s changed internally for them.

Does this affect the ORR’s decision making or is that purely on current usage?

My take is others are seriously suggesting launching these services. So instead of Eurostar keeping it in the too difficult pile, it becomes a do Eurostar let the newcomers start and build up an alternative where they might then never be able to catch up and compete economically decision.

Eurostar have to look at what might happen in 5, 10, 20 years, and it's now looking like newcomers will run a few services, and probably undercut prices. They can either sit back and let them, or try and join them. I suspect what's changed is potential alternatives.

 

[zwk500]

Interesting that Eurostar suddenly believe that Switzerland and Germany are viable. I wonder what’s changed internally for them.

Presumably the recovery from Post-Covid travel dip. London-Frankfurt has *long* been talked about as a possible route, while Geneva is also on the list of services the EU will subsidise for the first 5 years. And now they run the old Thalys services as one Eurostar brand, presumably there's some sharing of resources available for Frankfurt?

Does this affect the ORR’s decision making or is that purely on current usage?

ORR already has to take into account Eurostar's future growth proposals, although having actual proposals rather than 'we would like to run more services' probably helps. Also worth mentioning that if Eurostar are making more use of their trains, they may require less sets stabled in Temple Mills (offset by a greater need to actually service them).

 

[signed]

Interesting that Eurostar suddenly believe that Switzerland and Germany are viable. I wonder what’s changed internally for them.

I wonder whether the fear of SBB starting their own international service starts to manifest.

 

[jon0844]

Eurostar has opened two new premier lounges, at Paris and Brussels.
Clearly trying to enhance the rail journey experience (maybe just a coincidence that potential competition might be coming).


I cannot find any reference to any newly refurbished premier lounge at London, possibly one is coming later.

Eurostar Redefines Luxury Rail Travel With Stunning Premier Lounge Transformations In Paris And Brussels - Travel And Tour World

Eurostar unveils revamped Premier lounges in Paris and Brussels, blending luxury, local design, and eco-friendly upgrades for a premium pre-departure experience.

www.travelandtourworld.com

The lounge in Paris was great before. Surprised they need to do anything to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2025 ==

"At most one new operator" is interesting seeing as there are multiple operators eyeing up cross-channel services. Between Virgin, Evolyn, Gemini and Trenitalia (assuming I'm not mistakenly missing or adding any) then the most likely winner for access to paths for Eurostar competition in my opinion would be Trenitalia. They already have experience in high-speed rail operations, both domestic and international, and will more easily be able to procure rolling stock for their services by simply buying more Frecciarossa 1000 units albeit with some modifications for Channel Tunnel and UK usage. I think SNCF will probably be a bigger obstacle, though I wouldn't put it past Virgin to seek court action.

If we are to get only one more operator, it better be one that wants to expand destinations and not just compete with whatever Eurostar does now (or may do in the future), with the risk that they end up working together to maintain pricing (of course they won't do that...ha!).

Still, it's good that the fact that with talk of another operator being allowed in, it has prompted Eurostar to talk of doing what it should have done years ago. As said above, UK to Germany services were talked about over a decade ago. Sure, it was DB showing the interest then and bringing a train to St Pancras, but I don't really care who does it as long as someone does.

Let's be honest, flying is only going to get more expensive. The cost for reserving seats, taking on a bag bigger than a bit of A4 paper, and other charges that I'm sure are being thought up as I write this only goes to make it likely that it will get ever more expensive to fly in the future. And as it does, destinations that are even further away and are beyond what some might consider a viable alternative to flying might become more viable.

 

[Mawkie]

Let's be honest, flying is only going to get more expensive. The cost for reserving seats, taking on a bag bigger than a bit of A4 paper, and other charges that I'm sure are being thought up as I write this only goes to make it likely that it will get ever more expensive to fly in the future.

To be fair, rail travel is also only going to get more expensive (in real terms).

In reality, air travel has become more affordable since the 1970s. With the ludicrous prices we see on the low cost operators, (sometimes £20/30/40 London-Zurich) even if they add £10 for a bag and £10 for a seat booking, the railways can't compete on time or money.

A traveller has to be really dedicated to use a train for more than a 5 hr journey, over a 1.5hr flight (even taking into account the cost and travelling time to and from distant airports).

 

[NCT]

Until we see concrete proposals re borders and customs facilities or specific Lille shuffle plans, I'll treat all this talk of new destinations as operators jostling and hot air.

 

[jon0844]

To be fair, rail travel is also only going to get more expensive (in real terms).

In reality, air travel has become more affordable since the 1970s. With the ludicrous prices we see on the low cost operators, (sometimes £20/30/40 London-Zurich) even if they add £10 for a bag and £10 for a seat booking, the railways can't compete on time or money.

A traveller has to be really dedicated to use a train for more than a 5 hr journey, over a 1.5hr flight (even taking into account the cost and travelling time to and from distant airports).

Rail travel has always been quite expensive, but for the time being you're not restricted on what you can take with you - and that can be worth £40-50 each way on a flight these days, which has massively helped make rail travel appear cheaper.

While I am sure there are some airlines still doing a suitcase or carry on bag for £10, most of the low cost carriers have increased well beyond that in recent years. And the cost to reserve a seat seems to creep up all the time.

It's obviously done to keep the headline prices down (the prices people seem to use to show how it's cheaper to fly to some distant country than get a walk-up ticket to Birmingham) and over the years, all the people who say these fees are easily avoidable are finding that there are relatively few fees you can avoid these days. Again, fine for a single traveller with only a small bag or just using their pockets - somewhat more for families that want to sit together and take a bag or two.

Clearly for London to Geneva, a lot of passengers on that route may be fine with paying a premium to fly from London City airport - but the railway is sure to find a market, especially for families or groups.

 

[Bald Rick]

Geneva and Frankfurt via Köln have been the most likely markets for some time, see post #16 and various previous threads. Still lots of barriers to overcome, though.

 

[Trainbike46]

There is a pressrelease about this on the Eurostar website which includes:

The fleet of up to 50 trains will be in service from early 2030s and is planned to operate three new direct routes, which Eurostar will now work with partners on:

• London – Frankfurt
• London – Geneva
• Amsterdam/Brussels – Geneva

Some things that I think are of note:
- It states "work with Partners", I suspect the likely partners are NS and SBB, though it may refer to others.
- The existence of Amsterdam-Geneva and London-Geneva services would potentially allow for more efficient diagrams and crewing.

It also confirms what we thought after the recent government press release about direct trains to/from Switzerland that cited Eurostar.

 

[Sorcerer]

If we are to get only one more operator, it better be one that wants to expand destinations and not just compete with whatever Eurostar does now (or may do in the future), with the risk that they end up working together to maintain pricing (of course they won't do that...ha!).

Trenitalia will likely want London to Milan as well as Paris, but maybe service expansion might be a factor in determining who might get to be that one other operator if not Eurostar. Trenitalia still seem quite likely though in my opinion because of their experience and how they'll have a much easier time procuring rolling stock than say someone like Virgin who have been out of the rail industry for years and don't have any high-speed trains at their leisure. At this stage though we might see Eurostar getting an expansion anyway since they're already established and will have new rolling stock on order soon anyway and could simply make a follow-up order.

 

[TheWierdOne]

This does all beg the question, if Eurostar wants to expand, but a competitor (my money being on Trenitalia) is granted access to Temple Mills before said expansion, what happens to depot space? Eurostar (probably) can’t boot Trenitalia out when they buy new trains. Is there any realistic chance that a second UIC gauge depot gets built?