Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[AndrewE]

Mk5's actually not as wide as Mk5's so no they are not suitable for sleeper service as there would not be enough width to the corridor and you can't have sleeper births turned around due to the potential for spinal damage if the train stops abruptly.

Interesting (random fact) question: How many sleeper births have there been? Presumably thousands over the years in India and China, but here?

 

[12LDA28C]

or the availability of some class 93s...

Which aren't compatible with the Mk5 driving trailers...

 

[craigybagel]

Which aren't compatible with the Mk5 driving trailers...

Or much use on the Chiltern network with it's 0 miles of AC electrification.

 

[AndrewE]

Which aren't compatible with the Mk5 driving trailers...

so build or modify some then.

Or much use on the Chiltern network with it's 0 miles of AC electrification.

...yet!
(The suggestion of the 93s was partly tongue-in-cheek).

 

[londonteacher]

Mk5's actually not as wide as Mk5's so no they are not suitable for sleeper service as there would not be enough width to the corridor and you can't have sleeper births turned around due to the potential for spinal damage if the train stops abruptly.

Are you sure? Both Mk5s and MK5a appear to be 2.75m wide and the Mk5s are used on the Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[LUYMun]

Labour's anti NIMBY stance will hopefully put an end to that.

That would be more against those opposing planning reform rather than the noise from a fleet of diesel locos.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Mk5's actually not as wide as Mk5's so no they are not suitable for sleeper service as there would not be enough width to the corridor and you can't have sleeper births turned around due to the potential for spinal damage if the train stops abruptly.

Is this actually a UK or European standard or regulation?

Plenty of sleeper trains around the world have longitudinal beds and lie flat seats.

I'd imagine if the train is stopping that suddenly, i.e. at least in emergency braking or worse a collision, it's rather more perilous for someone sideways in a top bunk, I would say!

 

[skyhigh]

Training would be a refresher rather than from scratch so could probably done quite quickly.

I'm not so sure about that. They left service in December and there will have been a number of new staff who have never worked them. They will have been removed from licenses rather than just being left. Not to mention crew training was an issue before they left.

I would expect by this point they'd need a full traction course to be reintroduced.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is this actually a UK or European standard or regulation?

It's a UK thing, the new NightJets do in fact have some beds along the length of the train

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's a UK thing, the new NightJets do in fact have some beds along the length of the train

The problem with the Caledonian Sleeper WRT longitudinal beds was because of the reversals. They're fine if you're travelling feet-first but not head-first, if the train switches direction en-route you'd have to wake everyone up and get them to turn round!

 

[Ianigsy]

Interesting (random fact) question: How many sleeper births have there been? Presumably thousands over the years in India and China, but here?

I’ve no idea, but there have probably been a few conceptions as well!

The only time I’ve ever slept reasonably well in a sleeping compartment was on the Indian Pacific in Australia, where the beds were longitudinal.

 

[Snow1964]

I think we can now officially rule out Chiltern taking the mk5s

Yesterday they published a tender for heavy overhaul and corrosion work to extend life of mk3s and DVTs by 8 years

Chiltern is seeking to carry out some heavy maintenance work on its MarkIII fleet. Chiltern is beginning the process of conducting a procurement for the heavy maintenance work on its existing 25 MarkIII and 6 DVT units. This procurement seeks experienced bidders to offer heavy maintenance solutions that will include corrosion investigation and rectification for Chiltern's MKIII fleet. The preferred bidder will wholly manage the heavy maintenance solutions. Chiltern is not in a position to guarantee the number of vehicles that will be processed as part of this heavy maintenance work but will commit to paying for mobilisation costs and long lead-time materials, which will be owned by Chiltern if not used.

Total Quantity or Scope​

Chiltern is seeking to carry out some heavy maintenance work on its MarkIII fleet. Chiltern is beginning the process of conducting a procurement for the heavy maintenance work on its existing 25 MarkIII and 6 DVT units.

Other Information​

The heavy maintenance work is required to commence in early February 2025 and it is anticipated it may take between 2 and 5 years to complete. The contract will permit Chiltern to place work orders as and when required (on a vehicle-by-vehicle basis). Chiltern will require flexibility as part of this program and must have the right to terminate the contract without liability. Interested Bidders should be UK-based, must have performed heavy maintenance services and corrosion repair work on MKIII and DVT units or (similar rolling stock) in the last 8 years, and should have available capacity and resources to commence and complete the Heavy Maintenance by February 2025 Interested Bidders should register their interest in taking part by emailing procurement@arrivatrains.co.uk to receive further information. A supplier selection stage will be used to evaluate applicants' suitability to proceed to the tendering stages.

Heavy Maintenance/C4 Work Rolling for Chiltern Railways MKIII and DVT Units [Notice]

Chiltern operates passenger rail services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford, ... A Tender Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 6M.

bidstats.uk

 

[Anonymous10]

I think we can now officially rule out Chiltern taking the mk5s

Yesterday they published a tender for heavy overhaul and corrosion work to extend life of mk3s and DVTs by 8 years

Heavy Maintenance/C4 Work Rolling for Chiltern Railways MKIII and DVT Units [Notice]

Chiltern operates passenger rail services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford, ... A Tender Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 6M.

bidstats.uk

They could be getting quotes for this work though? Surely both options have to be costed before a decision is reached.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They could be getting quotes for this work though? Surely both options have to be costed before a decision is reached.

Exactly. I would suspect this only indicates that a decision on future stock is possibly getting closer. It does mean Chiltern are considering continuing with Mk3s but until that quote is accepted then Mk5s cannot be ruled out - unless of course Mk5s are ruled out by another means. There must be plenty of scope for alternatives, no matter how tenuous, to still be a possibility until an alternative is actually proceeded with.

Just to blow it wide open - how likely/unlikely is it that Chiltern might even replace other stock with BOTH Mk3s and Mk5s ?.
I mean a cascade of 168s to replace tired 165s leading to 168s being replaced by LHCS !.
A lot of crayon use but all totally not impossible !.

 

[skyhigh]

I think we can now officially rule out Chiltern taking the mk5s

Yesterday they published a tender for heavy overhaul and corrosion work to extend life of mk3s and DVTs by 8 years

Heavy Maintenance/C4 Work Rolling for Chiltern Railways MKIII and DVT Units [Notice]

Chiltern operates passenger rail services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford, ... A Tender Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 6M.

bidstats.uk

The key quote being:

Chiltern is not in a position to guarantee the number of vehicles that will be processed as part of this heavy maintenance work

Surely if it had been decided Mk3s were staying then they would know how many vehicles they would need to retain. That quote essentially says the number processed may actually be 0.

 

[Meerkat]

They could be getting quotes for this work though? Surely both options have to be costed before a decision is reached.

Or the lessors of the Mk5s and 68s want too much, so asking for these quotes is making a point that there is more than one game in town.

 

[gingertom]

Or the lessors of the Mk5s and 68s want too much, so asking for these quotes is making a point that there is more than one game in town.

that was my thought too.

 

[Anonymous10]

Or the lessors of the Mk5s and 68s want too much, so asking for these quotes is making a point that there is more than one game in town.

That is also a possibility, my post was more that businesses will explore all options.

 

[172007]

68012 seems quieter all the sudden. Certanly when power is demaned if not when idling the exhaust sound sounds less basey and lacks the aircraft afterburner soort of thrash sound. May be me though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2024 ==

I think we can now officially rule out Chiltern taking the mk5s

Yesterday they published a tender for heavy overhaul and corrosion work to extend life of mk3s and DVTs by 8 years

Heavy Maintenance/C4 Work Rolling for Chiltern Railways MKIII and DVT Units [Notice]

Chiltern operates passenger rail services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford, ... A Tender Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 6M.

bidstats.uk

Reading the quoted details it seem more like a case that the existing maintenance contract expires year end, it's August so we won't be able to get Mk5's up and running by year end so the Mk3's will need to used until mid 2025 and clearly maintenance will be requires to keep them in service.

Let's be honest that contract invite has an awfull let of ifs and no guarantees to anything.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think we can now officially rule out Chiltern taking the mk5s

Yesterday they published a tender for heavy overhaul and corrosion work to extend life of mk3s and DVTs by 8 years

Heavy Maintenance/C4 Work Rolling for Chiltern Railways MKIII and DVT Units [Notice]

Chiltern operates passenger rail services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford, ... A Tender Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value 6M.

bidstats.uk

Nothing can be ruled out. If no work is carried out on the Mk3s in the very near future, they simply won't last until any replacement comes along.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Just to blow it wide open - how likely/unlikely is it that Chiltern might even replace other stock with BOTH Mk3s and Mk5s ?.
I mean a cascade of 168s to replace tired 165s leading to 168s being replaced by LHCS !.
A lot of crayon use but all totally not impossible !.

Unlikely, as 168s are not very good substitutes for 165s and anyway the tender to replace the 165s has already been issued, not to mention the current ongoing refurb program for the 168s.

 

[Snow1964]

Nothing can be ruled out. If no work is carried out on the Mk3s in the very near future, they simply won't last until any replacement comes along.

Unless I misread it, the tender for heavy work on mk3s appears to be from February 2025.

I therefore assume they already have maintenance provision for next 7 months. That's more than long enough to get replacements that are parked in sidings.

Unless Chiltern are just just wasting everyone's time getting a formal bids for cost comparisons. And every bidder (if any) is going to be very cautious about bidding because some of the vehicles are over 45 years old and might be full of expensive to fix horrors, especially with no guaranteed minimum quantity. Thus my gut feeling is the option of keeping mk3s might be too expensive and they are trying to formally rule them out.

That basically leaves the mk5s or some mystery secondhand DMU for its longer distance services.

 

[Nym]

Never underestimate the ability of a ToC to issue tenders or quotes for work only for cost comparison. Happens far too much.

 

[JonathanH]

Never underestimate the ability of a ToC to issue tenders or quotes for work only for cost comparison. Happens far too much.

In any industry there is a need to keep supplier costs keen otherwise the supplier can simply rip off the person tendering the work. Putting work out to tender does this. Any cost for the supplier is just part of the 'cost of sale'.

 

[warwickshire]

Unless I misread it, the tender for heavy work on mk3s appears to be from February 2025.

I therefore assume they already have maintenance provision for next 7 months. That's more than long enough to get replacements that are parked in sidings.

Unless Chiltern are just just wasting everyone's time getting a formal bids for cost comparisons. And every bidder (if any) is going to be very cautious about bidding because some of the vehicles are over 45 years old and might be full of expensive to fix horrors, especially with no guaranteed minimum quantity. Thus my gut feeling is the option of keeping mk3s might be too expensive and they are trying to formally rule them out.

That basically leaves the mk5s or some mystery secondhand DMU for its longer distance services.

Only possible option is Meridens for dmus, it's possible the mk3s might have to remain in place longer than expected, due to issues with getting either the mk5 or Meridens into service, if that is happening,
Also Dvt 82303, hasn't ran for around 3 years, that itself is a parts honour.
Another coach is out of use, due to a incident at Wembley depot, of where it caught fire due to air conditioning fault.
So in reality for those two vehicles alone, costs are going to be quite high.
Probably the mk3s, might have to stay in service, for example around a year or so longer than planned??.

 

[12LDA28C]

Unless I misread it, the tender for heavy work on mk3s appears to be from February 2025.

I therefore assume they already have maintenance provision for next 7 months. That's more than long enough to get replacements that are parked in sidings.

How long does a tender/procurement process take to get a cascaded fleet of trains into service then, including the necessary approval from the DfT and so on? And where did you find this information?

 

[zwk500]

I therefore assume they already have maintenance provision for next 7 months. That's more than long enough to get replacements that are parked in sidings.

7 Months to arrange

- Finance
- Leasing contracts
- Maintenance contracts
- Maintenance training & refits
- Maintenance cycles
- Stabling locations
- Crew training
- Stock refresh (carpets and cushions, Info screens, etc)
- Infrastructure compatibility checks (and any works required)
- Crew diagrams
- Stock diagrams
- the ad-hoc moves to get the stock from storage to refresh location and then service stabling, and withdraw old stock being withdrawn (incl. Drivers, TOC, Paths, Clearance, funding etc).
(I've probably missed some)

And DfT/Treasury approval as needed for all of the above.

Good Luck. Some of this is probably quite simple (e.g. Crew/Stock diagrams may just copy across), and some might only be temporary issues (e.g. Stabling space while the fleets are crossing over), but there's still a lot to sort out and there's the question of who'll actually be sorting it out - consultants, people who'd be planning Chiltern's day-to-day services otherwise, new Chiltern Staff?

 

[Nym]

In any industry there is a need to keep supplier costs keen otherwise the supplier can simply rip off the person tendering the work. Putting work out to tender does this. Any cost for the supplier is just part of the 'cost of sale'.

On the flip side, the more cost excersies go out to industry for this, the more the costs are artificially increased as these “costs of sale” go into overheads of the supply chain of all suppliers and the conversion ratios go down.
And suppliers do talk to eachother on job conversion, so one will know what “they” failed to convert and what “never converted”.
By the by though on that, just getting costs doesn’t mean that one will be buying that service from anyone.

 

[12LDA28C]

Never underestimate the ability of a ToC to issue tenders or quotes for work only for cost comparison. Happens far too much.

One might assume that the DfT themselves have requested a costing estimate of refurbing the Mk3s to compare against the funding required for any alternative fleet provision? Would seem the most likely explanation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This reminds me very much of the GWR tender a couple of years ago that had everyone excited about the 379s only for it to turn out it was a way of getting a better price on the 387/1s they already had.

Therefore... I think those suggesting it's just to compare the pricing of the existing fleet versus the various new stock ideas are on the right track.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Is there any progress or updates on the TPE 68 + Mk5 sets and their future?