Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[brad465]

Will this allow an overall fleet capacity increase (as in more capacity than they decide to bin off)? While Chiltern are getting 196s for EWR, I would not be surprised if this fleet turned out to be insufficient, given Oxford-Bletchley/MKC is connecting some major settlements with only 2-car units, such that Chiltern found themselves putting 165s/168s on some of these services too for longer formations at the expense of mainline operations.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Will this allow an overall fleet capacity increase (as in more capacity than they decide to bin off)? While Chiltern are getting 196s for EWR, I would not be surprised if this fleet turned out to be insufficient, given Oxford-Bletchley/MKC is connecting some major settlements with only 2-car units, such that Chiltern found themselves putting 165s/168s on some of these services too for longer formations at the expense of mainline operations.

Running only 2 car services for EWR is a MASSIVE oversight by Chiltern.
I think it’s going to be an extremely loud wake up call when they see how successful it’s going to be.

Unless of course having extra 68 & Mk5 sets displaces 168s to increase capacity if and when the 196s go back to West Mids.

 

[800001]

Running only 2 car services for EWR is a MASSIVE oversight by Chiltern.
I think it’s going to be an extremely loud wake up call when they see how successful it’s going to be.

Unless of course having extra 68 & Mk5 sets displaces 168s to increase capacity if and when the 196s go back to West Mids.

Chiltern had no choice, it's what they were allocated to run the service by dft.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Children had no choice

To be fair, you usually have to be 18+ to get a decision making job on the railway, perhaps ageist but they tend to prioritise candidates based on prior experience.

 

[craigybagel]

12 years, but seemingly only direct replacement of the Mark 3 sets at first (as I think was already suggested). It will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to run more frequently than the current Mark 3 sets.

The clues might be if Chiltern start recruiting for more guards....

and to displace the six Class 196/0s back to WMT.

Will this allow an overall fleet capacity increase (as in more capacity than they decide to bin off)? While Chiltern are getting 196s for EWR, I would not be surprised if this fleet turned out to be insufficient, given Oxford-Bletchley/MKC is connecting some major settlements with only 2-car units, such that Chiltern found themselves putting 165s/168s on some of these services too for longer formations at the expense of mainline operations.

Running only 2 car services for EWR is a MASSIVE oversight by Chiltern.
I think it’s going to be an extremely loud wake up call when they see how successful it’s going to be.

Unless of course having extra 68 & Mk5 sets displaces 168s to increase capacity if and when the 196s go back to West Mids.

165s/168s to EWR is of course subject to a method of work that is suitable for their use. Unless they go for DGO, supplementing or replacing 196s with older units on a DOO line is going to be challenging.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Children had no choice

I’m sure it feels like dealing with said demographic from time to time for various industry partners and stakeholders.
They’ve got 3 units as I understand it. Running a singular 2 car as the first train through is still a wild call in my opinion.

The clues might be if Chiltern start recruiting for more guards....


165s/168s to EWR is of course subject to a method of work that is suitable for their use. Unless they go for DGO, supplementing or replacing 196s with older units on a DOO line is going to be challenging.

Agreed.
Let’s hope they can come to the table with an open mind to making this line a success… it would be terrible optics for the company to mismanage the start of a brand new railway line by not listening to frontline staff, or burying their heads in the sand.

 

[D365]

"the supplier's full fleet of Mark5A coaches and Class 68 locomotives,"

Except it's not the 'supplier's full fleet of ... Class 68 locomotives". It's 14 of them - the other 18 being leased to DRS.

Perhaps the word ’associated’ could be of benefit to this tender description.

Running only 2 car services for EWR is a MASSIVE oversight by Chiltern.

A good job, then, that more / longer Class 196 units exist

 

[JonathanH]

The clues might be if Chiltern start recruiting for more guards....

It sounds from the contract notice that they have some 68+Mk5 sets just for driver training. Nothing about guards. If there were to be a way of fitting cameras / DOO equipment, perhaps a non safety critical / on board supervisor type solution could be used in due course.

A good job, then, that more / longer Class 196 units exist

Are they going to be made available for short term use on EWR to deal with the early days?

 

[London Trains]

Running only 2 car services for EWR is a MASSIVE oversight by Chiltern.
I think it’s going to be an extremely loud wake up call when they see how successful it’s going to be.

Unless of course having extra 68 & Mk5 sets displaces 168s to increase capacity if and when the 196s go back to West Mids.

I can see the headlines rolling in after a few days about the new service consistently leaving crowds behind, 2 coaches is woefully inadequate and just shows the utter incompetence of the D(a)fT...

 

[Snow1964]

The clues might be if Chiltern start recruiting for more guards....

165s/168s to EWR is of course subject to a method of work that is suitable for their use. Unless they go for DGO, supplementing or replacing 196s with older units on a DOO line is going to be challenging.

Weren't the mk5s equipped for DOO (even if Transpennine didn't actually use it except on empty workings).

Of course even if DOO is fitted, they might retain guards on some sections, or have some other combination of passenger assisting and ticket checking train manager etc. Quite a lot could happen by 2036.

If the mk5s can go over to DOO then presumably some of the guards in Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire area could move to East-West line if required.

 

[PLY2AYS]

A good job, then, that more / longer Class 196 units exist

And which units are being whipped up out of thin air?
Not to mention the fact that no lease/loan deal exists, drivers don’t sign them and, I’m not even sure West Mids have the stock to spare.

Weren't the mk5s equipped for DOO (even if Transpennine didn't actually use it except on empty workings).

Of course even if DOO is fitted, they might retain guards on some sections, or have some other combination of passenger assisting and ticket checking train manager etc. Quite a lot could happen by 2036.

I know that they have SDO, however the track infrastructure doesn’t exist on Chiltern (yet).
That being said, through the grape vine, rumours of early talks with Network Rail were interesting, saying they’d install balaise, but only south of Banbury… and if you know platform lengths, you’ll know this is entirely useless, as SDO is only necessary north of Banbury.

 

[D365]

And which units are being whipped up out of thin air?
Not to mention the fact that no lease/loan deal exists, drivers don’t sign them and, I’m not even sure West Mids have the stock to spare.

I was being facetious by implying that Chiltern could ’borrow’ some 4 car Class 196/1s [instead of the currently planned 6 x 2 car Class 196/0s] to operate EWR until alternative diesel stock is available.

 

[172007]

And which units are being whipped up out of thin air?
Not to mention the fact that no lease/loan deal exists, drivers don’t sign them and, I’m not even sure West Mids have the stock to spare.

I know that they have SDO, however the track infrastructure doesn’t exist on Chiltern (yet).
That being said, through the grape vine, rumours of early talks with Network Rail were interesting, saying they’d install balaise, but only south of Banbury… and if you know platform lengths, you’ll know this is entirely useless, as SDO is only necessary north of Banbury.

Probably as Balaise are already installed from Leamington Spa through to Stourbridge and beyond for class 196 and 172's. Assuming tje same system is on or retrofitted to the MK5's

 

[Cowley]

I think we may be straying somewhat from the topic of where 68s and Mk5s could go.

Is there much more to add now?

 

[craigybagel]

Agreed.
Let’s hope they can come to the table with an open mind to making this line a success… it would be terrible optics for the company to mismanage the start of a brand new railway line by not listening to frontline staff, or burying their heads in the sand.

Given it's effectively a brand new railway, exclusively using stock that is theoretically DOO capable, and worked out of a brand new depot that has only recruited drivers and not guards, I think the writing is very much on the wall. That topic is probably best left on the EWR thread though - I only mention it here to say I don't personally believe MKVs are likely to free up 165/8s for EWR

It sounds from the contract notice that they have some 68+Mk5 sets just for driver training. Nothing about guards. If there were to be a way of fitting cameras / DOO equipment, perhaps a non safety critical / on board supervisor type solution could be used in due course.


Are they going to be made available for short term use on EWR to deal with the early days?

Weren't the mk5s equipped for DOO (even if Transpennine didn't actually use it except on empty workings).

Of course even if DOO is fitted, they might retain guards on some sections, or have some other combination of passenger assisting and ticket checking train manager etc. Quite a lot could happen by 2036.

If the mk5s can go over to DOO then presumably some of the guards in Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire area could move to East-West line if required.

MK5s & 68s are not DOO capable. They may well have the buttons - I think TPE were aiming for driver open guard close on all of their fleet - but they have no body side cameras and they're almost certainly not compatible with Chilterns existing DOO equipment on platforms.

 

[Harpo]

The next big questions are, how many sets will be in traffic each day and in what formation as I assume that their original formation might not cope with some peak loadings?

 

[D365]

I think we may be straying somewhat from the topic of where 68s and Mk5s could go.

Apologies. I had read recently that Chiltern’s use of six 196/0s on EWR is only a short term measure, therefore I was wondering whether the Mk5A sets (not Mk5 coaches - very different beasts!) could facilitate a cascade of Class 16x units onto EWR.

Is there much more to add now?

I don’t think there’s any doubt that Chiltern is where the Mk5A sets are bound.

 

[172007]

Given it's effectively a brand new railway, exclusively using stock that is theoretically DOO capable, and worked out of a brand new depot that has only recruited drivers and not guards, I think the writing is very much on the wall. That topic is probably best left on the EWR thread though - I only mention it here to say I don't personally believe MKVs are likely to free up 165/8s for EWR



MK5s & 68s are not DOO capable. They may well have the buttons - I think TPE were aiming for driver open guard close on all of their fleet - but they have no body side cameras and they're almost certainly not compatible with Chilterns existing DOO equipment on platforms.

The future use of 68's & MK5's would in my opinion be with DOO Marylebone to Banbury then 10 Bell despatch from thereon to Stourbridge; as now.

The reasoning is:

DfT will not want to increase staffing costs with extra conductors.

Chiltern already work no gangway sets DOO sunset procedures are in place for Driver's going between units in the formation via external means.

Class 350's except going off lease /2's & 172's have all been retro fitted with full DCO / DOO do it's not only possible but has been done in the last 5 years. I can't see why a Mk5a would be out of gauge with cameras.

To back up the last comment, has there not been a mk5 set at Wolverton for and 5 or 6 68's at Loughborough for quite sometime. It may well be that camera fitting etc is being done or has been done and ready for rollout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think there’s any doubt that Chiltern is where the Mk5A sets are bound.

Perhaps it's now time for a non speculative thread on their introduction to replace this one?

 

[D365]

Excellent news.

Time to move this thread out of 'Speculative Discussion'?

Perhaps it's now time for a non speculative thread on their introduction to replace this one?

New non-speculative thread now available here.

 

[JamesT]

Apologies. I had read recently that Chiltern’s use of six 196/0s on EWR is only a short term measure, therefore I was wondering whether the Mk5A sets (not Mk5 coaches - very different beasts!) could facilitate a cascade of Class 16x units onto EWR.

It's short-term inasmuch as a future rolling stock order that replaces other old stock might include EWR, not that older stock would be cascaded onto it.