Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[JonathanH]

Is there any progress or updates on the TPE 68 + Mk5 sets and their future?

No there isn't, otherwise it would have been reported here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/potential-future-uses-for-class-68-mk5-sets.250239/page-35 or here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...awal-from-service.190693/page-84#post-6849696. The second thread does summarise observed movements for the class. The first just speculates.

Are the TPE 68s and the TPE Mark 5s still regarded as a combination?

 

[CAF397]

If an operator wishes to use the Mk5s then the only locomotive capable of working with them are the 68s, so they should be considered a combination. TPE have handed back several to DRS now, but kept the lease on a handful for use moving the Mk5s around for maintenance (pending return to lessor).

 

[geoffk]

There's an item in November's Rail Magazine saying "ex TransPennine Express Mark 5As move to Chiltern edges closer". Sorry the attachment not very legible as it came via Whats-app.

 

[JonathanH]

There's an item in November's Rail Magazine saying "ex TransPennine Express Mark 5As move to Chiltern edges closer". Sorry the attachment not very legible as it came via Whats-app.

While that is interesting, it does appear to suggest that 68+Mk5 isn't the only option being considered.

 

[Energy]

While that is interesting, it does appear to suggest that 68+Mk5 isn't the only option being considered.

Indeed. It pretty much just says that options are being considered, while 68+Mk5s being considered is likely there isn’t confirmation that they are even an option.

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed. It pretty much just says that options are being considered, while 68+Mk5s being considered is likely there isn’t confirmation that they are even an option.

so what else might be available in the next 5 years or so?

 

[Energy]

so what else might be available in the next 5 years or so?

In the next 5 years? Newbuild is an option.

There are enough MK5s to run Birmingham services currently but it’s unlikely Chiltern will be able to order any more for growth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the next 5 years? Newbuild is an option.

As is "nothing, put up with what you've got, if it's too busy stick your fares up", as per XC at HST withdrawal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

There are enough MK5s to run Birmingham services currently but it’s unlikely Chiltern will be able to order any more for growth.

That would be growth compared to the limited use the Mk3s get, of course. The next opportunity for further growth would then be 165 replacement which can't be that far off (parts are supposedly more difficult than the all-mechanical 15x where if you need a piece of metal in a specific shape you can just fabricate it).

 

[AndrewE]

In the next 5 years? Newbuild is an option.

There are enough MK5s to run Birmingham services currently but it’s unlikely Chiltern will be able to order any more for growth.

deleted

 

[Lurcheroo]

There are enough MK5s to run Birmingham services currently but it’s unlikely Chiltern will be able to order any more for growth.

There are 25 MK3 carriages (making 5 sets) in chilterns fleet and 66 of the ex-TPE MK5’s (making 13 sets) if they took them all, then surely that would be a good amount more to provide some growth ? Or am I missing something (I’m not that familiar with the chiltern operation)

 

[JonathanH]

Or am I missing something (I’m not that familiar with the chiltern operation)

Two issues spring to mind
* 68s are not neighbour friendly and there is the suggestion that their use has to be limited as a result
* it has to be imagined that running 68+Mk5 instead of 168s on more services would be somewhat more expensive

The existing 68 and Mark 3 sets are used where the capacity is needed, with 168s sufficient at other times.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Chiltern is also DOO south of Banbury for DMUs but requires guards on the Mk3 sets.
Therefore if you used the Mk5s on more diagrams (rather than a like-for-like replacement) you'd either need more guards or a DOO agreement (if that is even possible on the Mk5s).

 

[JonathanH]

Chiltern is also DOO south of Banbury but requires guards on the Mk3 sets.
Therefore if you used the Mk5s on more diagrams (rather than a like-for-like replacement) you'd either need more guards or a DOO agreement (if that is even possible on the Mk5s).

It has previously been indicated by informed posters that the 68+Mk5 sets could be set up for DOO.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

It has previously been indicated by informed posters that the 68+Mk5 sets could be set up for DOO.

Just because it's technically possible, doesn't mean that the unions won't make an issue of it.
I can imagine the drivers being unhappy about being unable to access the coaches in emergency without going trackside (A position I'd have some sympathy with even though they currently run DOO with non-gangwayed units).

 

[Energy]

As is "nothing, put up with what you've got, if it's too busy stick your fares up", as per XC at HST withdrawal.

There are 25 MK3 carriages (making 5 sets) in chilterns fleet and 66 of the ex-TPE MK5’s (making 13 sets) if they took them all

Mk5As just for Mk3 replacement makes no sense to me so I'd always assumed they'd be at least cascading 168s.

The Mk3s operate a very limited number of peak services, it seems like a lot of staff training for stock with relatively little use. The Mk3s are soldiering on for now but doing Mk3+165 replacement makes far more sense.

 

[Olivine]

170s to Chiltern and LHCS to GWR makes much more sense. Or sufficient MK5s to Chiltern to replace the Mk3s and GWR have the rest. Makes much more sense for GWR to be replacing the Cardiff to Penzance with LHCS than 170s.

 

[Nym]

Where would these 170s for Chiltern come from?

 

[Whistler40145]

How about sending the 68s+Mk 5s to ScotRail to replace the HSTs?

 

[JonathanH]

Where would these 170s for Chiltern come from?

I think the previous poster means 175s, not 170s, with 68+Mk5 going to GWR instead.

 

[43102EMR]

I think the previous poster means 175s, not 170s, with 68+Mk5 going to GWR instead.

Highly doubt that’s what it meant - remember that quite a few SR 170s will soon be displaced once the partial Fife Circle Line electrification is complete and BEMUs start running the line, so that’s probably what it was referring to.

 

[507020]

I think the previous poster means 175s, not 170s.

Previously the 175s were cited as being a possibility for Chiltern, but they are now confirmed to have been leased by GWR and either way, it would have meant a lot of training for Chiltern on an unrelated type, when they are reported to unfortunately be getting 196s for EWR services as well.

The issue with Mk5as at TPE was the training requirement for the Class 68 locomotive on top of unrelated 185s and 802s. Chiltern and no other passenger operator already sign the 68 and would only have to learn the Mk5a DVT.

They would also like a net increase in stock with the withdrawal of the Mk3s. Provided they are better utilised by Chiltern than they were at TPE, then it is the logical option for best use of the fleet. There are no spare 170s for Chiltern to take anyway.

 

[43096]

How about sending the 68s+Mk 5s to ScotRail to replace the HSTs?

The ScotRail HSTs are on lease until 2030. Given the Scottish government is broke, how would you suggest funding more trains that aren’t needed. In any case, there aren’t enough Mark 5 sets to replace the HSTs.

 

[43096]

Highly doubt that’s what it meant - remember that quite a few SR 170s will soon be displaced once the partial Fife Circle Line electrification is complete and BEMUs start running the line, so that’s probably what it was referring to.

Define “soon”. ScotRail have not ordered any BEMUs, so that is years away.

 

[Peter Sarf]

170s to Chiltern and LHCS to GWR makes much more sense. Or sufficient MK5s to Chiltern to replace the Mk3s and GWR have the rest. Makes much more sense for GWR to be replacing the Cardiff to Penzance with LHCS than 170s.

Microfleet alert. Not good splitting an already small fleet between two operators. More to learn and maintain spares for.

 

[172007]

This weeks Green Sognals Podcast / YouTube has the Chiltern Boss talking about the fleet and future activities. Main bit is 168's refurbished and the 165's having a light refresh which I take as a deep clean and mew upholstery. Between the lines he seems to suggest nothing changing fleet for sometime.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This weeks Green Sognals Podcast / YouTube has the Chiltern Boss talking about the fleet and future activities. Main bit is 168's refurbished and the 165's having a light refresh which I take as a deep clean and mew upholstery. Between the lines he seems to suggest nothing changing fleet for sometime.

I also got from the pod cast that they are looking at a solution allowing them to avoid using diesels. With electrification of Marylebone, Oxford and other parts I cannot recall. So I assume Battery Electric Multiple Units. They have a deadline for end of next year for tenders / ideas. I can only imagine the Mk5s would be part of this solution if a Bimode, or battery replacement, is possible for the 68s which seems a long shot if its battery.

 

[dgl]

I suppose something will have to happen as I understand the Mk. 3 Carriages are properly life expired and the government won't sanction any work to rebuild them as it wouldn't be cost effective.
So if they can't get any more stock they'll somehow have to deal with less stock being available, which given they probably don't have enough now is probably near impossible.

 

[TheGrew]

I am not sure what it was doing but on Tuesday morning around 11 I passed a Mk5a set parked in the unused platform at Eccles. I didn't see what it may have been attached to my unfortunately but the mk5a driving end is quite distinctive.

Could the Mk5a be modified for 110/125mph operation? I imagine then coupled to an 93 Grand Central might be interested.

 

[JamesT]

I am not sure what it was doing but on Tuesday morning around 11 I passed a Mk5a set parked in the unused platform at Eccles. I didn't see what it may have been attached to my unfortunately but the mk5a driving end is quite distinctive.

Could the Mk5a be modified for 110/125mph operation? I imagine then coupled to an 93 Grand Central might be interested.

The Mk5a carriages are already capable of 125mph, it’s the locomotive that has limited them so far.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Rail 1023 in the post today suggests the move to Chiltern will involve nine rakes strengthened to 6 carriages each and that one set ( presumably still in the 5 car format ) will be sent over for testing purposes and crew familiarisation shortly.