Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[12LDA28C]

Send them off to Chiltern for the Oxford services, they can then bin off the 165's.
Just need to install veg oil fuelling points at both Banbury and Wembley Depots like they have done at Stourbridge.

No chance of that. Chiltern are already severely restricted with the number of loco-hauled trains they can run each day and can't run any more.

 

[68011]

No chance of that. Chiltern are already severely restricted with the number of loco-hauled trains they can run each day and can't run any more.

Restricted by what exactly?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

Chiltern LHCS is 6-car (23m), these would be a bit short to be useful. Though I suppose with some work re-forming would be possible, but they're effectively unpowered MUs so it isn't just a depot shunt job.

Yes i agree they are too short to replace the Mk3 formations but certainly not too short to replace 2, 3, 4, 5 car 165's on Oxford services, they would fit in the bays at Oxford and would require around 7 sets to cover the 30 minute service, the 165's could go off to GWR if they require more units or in the bin, I've heard (although i don't know how accurate it is) that emissions have reduced by up to 80% since the introduction of veg oil on the 68's which makes them a lot more environmentally friendly to our friends living around Marylebone than 165's & 168's.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes i agree they are too short to replace the Mk3 formations but certainly not too short to replace 2, 3, 4, 5 car 165's on Oxford services, they would fit in the bays at Oxford and would require around 7 sets to cover the 30 minute service, the 165's could go off to GWR if they require more units or in the bin, I've heard (although i don't know how accurate it is) that emissions have reduced by up to 80% since the introduction of veg oil on the 68's which makes them a lot more environmentally friendly to our friends living around Marylebone than 165's & 168's.

The main cause of concern to Marylebone residents is noise, not air pollution so I'm afraid this is irrelevant.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Restricted by what exactly?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==


Yes i agree they are too short to replace the Mk3 formations but certainly not too short to replace 2, 3, 4, 5 car 165's on Oxford services, they would fit in the bays at Oxford and would require around 7 sets to cover the 30 minute service, the 165's could go off to GWR if they require more units or in the bin, I've heard (although i don't know how accurate it is) that emissions have reduced by up to 80% since the introduction of veg oil on the 68's which makes them a lot more environmentally friendly to our friends living around Marylebone than 165's & 168's.

Complaints about noise from big efficient locomotives.

More likely a way would be found to give Chiltern more 165s & 166s from GWR.....

 

[12LDA28C]

Restricted by what exactly?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

Due to noise complaints from local residents / MPs in the vicinity of Marylebone, Chiltern are prohibited from running any more loco-hauled trains than they do already.

 

[68011]

The main cause of concern to Marylebone residents is noise, not air pollution so I'm afraid this is irrelevant.

Fair enough but they shut the 68's down on arrival at Marylebone and the racket from 165's & 168's idling then departing too is ridiculous so i doubt there is much in it and there's a lot more of them.

Is there actually something official in Black & White stating the reason is just noise then or is it just what platform enders have decided will be the reason for lack of paths now? They ran more than they do now in the past and they will be running more (8 departures) this coming Saturday including an ecs move than they do on a normal day (6 departures including 2 ecs departures) of the week so they can't be prohibited from running anymore so that's nonsense for starters.

 

[12LDA28C]

Fair enough but they shut the 68's down on arrival at Marylebone and the racket from 165's & 168's idling then departing too is ridiculous so i doubt there is much in it and there's a lot more of them.

The 68s are certainly louder than Class 165/168s, especially when departing so that is why the restrictions only apply to 68s. Running any additional 68-hauled trains is simply not going to happen.

 

[68011]

The 68s are certainly louder than Class 165/168s, especially when departing so that is why the restrictions only apply to 68s. Running any additional 68-hauled trains is simply not going to happen.

There are 2 extra departures from Marylebone compared to normal this coming Saturday so saying running any additional 68 hauled trains is simply not going to happen is incorrect. They're have been more 68 hauled departures in the past than there is now and there will be more in the future so is there something official in Black & White about these restrictions or is is just talk amongst enthusiasts and the like and one person has come up with this reason and the rest have jumped on the bandwagon which is what usually happens?

 

[RobShipway]

There are 2 extra departures from Marylebone compared to normal this coming Saturday so saying running any additional 68 hauled trains is simply not going to happen is incorrect. They're have been more 68 hauled services in the past and will be more in the future so is there something official in Black & White about these restrictions or is is just talk amongst enthusiasts and the like and one person has come up with this reason and the rest have jumped on the bandwagon which is what usually happens?

Well, if you do a Google search on Marylebone Noise Restrictions, you will get the following articles:

Evening Standard from 3rd November 2021: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...ic-train-fuels-government-london-b964118.html This article states that there has been complaints about the diesel fumes at the station.

Cities of London & Westminster from 30th July 2019: https://www.twocitiesconservatives.org.uk/news/update-marylebone-station This article states the following:

"
Regular meetings of your Councillors and local residents with Chiltern Railways have been ongoing since November 2015, with a view to reducing the environmental impact of the station. By involving the Council’s Noise Abatement Officer, we’ve recently obtained a reduction in the loudness of announcements made by hand-held microphones. Volumes had been set by Network Rail and obediently applied by Chiltern Railways. It has taken far too long, but we have finally obtained a reduction in prescribed noise levels. This was made possible by your Councillors’ regular attendance at every liaison meeting, insisting that the concerns of our residents are real and important.

Another battle-ground has been the level of diesel pollution from the station. Chiltern Railways announced plans in September 2018 to pilot the conversion of diesel trains to hybrids, using rechargeable batteries. The diesel engines could be turned off as the trains come into the station, without creating any emissions. We are disappointed that the Chiltern Railways pilot has been put on hold until May 2020. This decision follows the draft publication of a Central-Government-commissioned report, the Williams Review, into the long-term strategy of the national railways. We shall continue to push for the introduction of hybrid trains to Marylebone Station. Somewhat better news is that Chiltern Railways are now looking at how they can reduce the time for which train engines idle at the platform before they leave the station. By deconstructing and retiming start-up procedures, Chiltern hope to fire up the engine for departure as late as possible, so as to reduce noise and particulate pollution. We consider this work as an important step in improving air quality and noise levels in the surrounding area.

Residents are advised that Transport for London will be installing a third escalator at Marylebone Station, with disruptive works scheduled to start in mid-August.

An Air Quality Action Day at Marylebone Station has been scheduled for Tuesday 13th August at 10am.

If you would like any more information, or know anyone who would like to get involved and volunteer, do let us know. You can also find more information and other scheduled Action Days by clicking here."

Plus the thread in these forums from 3rd November 2021:https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tion-into-marylebone-due-to-pollution.224355/ which I am sure ha many other articles from outside these forums that applies to the complaints made about fume or noise from diesel engines.

So having the MK5 carriages go to Chiltern is a none starter, unless you can find a powerful enough battery/electric/diesel locomotive that can work on battery long enough to bring the Mk5 carriages into Marylebone station and out again without needing to be recharged.

The only possible answers is to move the MK5 carriages to GWR for the Cardiff/Bristol Temple Meads - Portsmouth services, such that the class 165/166 units used can be moved to be used on other GWR services or moved to Chiltern Railways. The class 158 units on these services could then be moved to possible replace the class 150 units with GWR. But again, I believe that has been discussed before and was found to be a no, so the only other options is for them to work abroad or be scrapped. Maybe they could be used within either the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?

 

[12LDA28C]

There are 2 extra departures from Marylebone compared to normal this coming Saturday so saying running any additional 68 hauled trains is simply not going to happen is incorrect. They're have been more 68 hauled departures in the past than there is now and there will be more in the future so is there something official in Black & White about these restrictions or is is just talk amongst enthusiasts and the like and one person has come up with this reason and the rest have jumped on the bandwagon which is what usually happens?

Chiltern are allowed 6 Class 68 arrivals and 6 departures into/out of Marylebone station per day. 2 extra departures on a Saturday still remains within that limit. This is not 'talk amongst enthusiasts'.

 

[68011]

Chiltern are allowed 6 Class 68 arrivals and 6 departures into/out of Marylebone station per day. 2 extra departures on a Saturday still remains within that limit. This is not 'talk amongst enthusiasts'.

6 in 6 out per day = 12 in my book but then you say 2 extra departures remains within that limit? How?

On Saturday there are planned to be 8 departures & 8 arrivals which by my calculation is 16 not 12 so you stating that running any additional services isn't going to happen is simply incorrect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

Well, if you do a Google search on Marylebone Noise Restrictions, you will get the following articles:

Evening Standard from 3rd November 2021: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...ic-train-fuels-government-london-b964118.html This article states that there has been complaints about the diesel fumes at the station.

Cities of London & Westminster from 30th July 2019: https://www.twocitiesconservatives.org.uk/news/update-marylebone-station This article states the following:

"
Regular meetings of your Councillors and local residents with Chiltern Railways have been ongoing since November 2015, with a view to reducing the environmental impact of the station. By involving the Council’s Noise Abatement Officer, we’ve recently obtained a reduction in the loudness of announcements made by hand-held microphones. Volumes had been set by Network Rail and obediently applied by Chiltern Railways. It has taken far too long, but we have finally obtained a reduction in prescribed noise levels. This was made possible by your Councillors’ regular attendance at every liaison meeting, insisting that the concerns of our residents are real and important.

Another battle-ground has been the level of diesel pollution from the station. Chiltern Railways announced plans in September 2018 to pilot the conversion of diesel trains to hybrids, using rechargeable batteries. The diesel engines could be turned off as the trains come into the station, without creating any emissions. We are disappointed that the Chiltern Railways pilot has been put on hold until May 2020. This decision follows the draft publication of a Central-Government-commissioned report, the Williams Review, into the long-term strategy of the national railways. We shall continue to push for the introduction of hybrid trains to Marylebone Station. Somewhat better news is that Chiltern Railways are now looking at how they can reduce the time for which train engines idle at the platform before they leave the station. By deconstructing and retiming start-up procedures, Chiltern hope to fire up the engine for departure as late as possible, so as to reduce noise and particulate pollution. We consider this work as an important step in improving air quality and noise levels in the surrounding area.

Residents are advised that Transport for London will be installing a third escalator at Marylebone Station, with disruptive works scheduled to start in mid-August.

An Air Quality Action Day at Marylebone Station has been scheduled for Tuesday 13th August at 10am.

If you would like any more information, or know anyone who would like to get involved and volunteer, do let us know. You can also find more information and other scheduled Action Days by clicking here."

Plus the thread in these forums from 3rd November 2021:https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tion-into-marylebone-due-to-pollution.224355/ which I am sure ha many other articles from outside these forums that applies to the complaints made about fume or noise from diesel engines.

So having the MK5 carriages go to Chiltern is a none starter, unless you can find a powerful enough battery/electric/diesel locomotive that can work on battery long enough to bring the Mk5 carriages into Marylebone station and out again without needing to be recharged.

The only possible answers is to move the MK5 carriages to GWR for the Cardiff/Bristol Temple Meads - Portsmouth services, such that the class 165/166 units used can be moved to be used on other GWR services or moved to Chiltern Railways. The class 158 units on these services could then be moved to possible replace the class 150 units with GWR. But again, I believe that has been discussed before and was found to be a no, so the only other options is for them to work abroad or be scrapped. Maybe they could be used within either the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?

Thanks for those links, Unless i've read them wrongly one of the clear reasons for the complaints is the air quality around the station not just the noise from the 68's. Chiltern have quite clearly the made effort to reduce the noise since these complaints were first made by shutting the locos down on arrival and starting them up for departure as late as possible and now with veg oil the 68's impact on the air quality is far less than that of the Class 165's & 168's.

 

[12LDA28C]

6 in 6 out per day = 12 in my book but then you say 2 extra departures remains within that limit? How?

Because on a normal Saturday there are only booked to be 2 Class 68 diagrams featuring 4 arrivals and 4 departures. You claimed there were going to be 2 extra departures which makes 6...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

Thanks for those links, Unless i've read them wrongly one of the clear reasons for the complaints is the air quality around the station not just the noise from the 68's. Chiltern have quite clearly the made effort to reduce the noise since these complaints were first made by shutting the locos down on arrival and starting them up for departure as late as possible and now with veg oil the 68's impact on the air quality is far less than that of the Class 165's & 168's.

It's clear you're some kind of Class 68 enthusiast who doesn't like to hear any negative comments about 68s but the fact is that local residents at Marylebone have made repeated complaints about noise from Class 68s specifically and as soon as a suitable replacement is found they will be gone from the Chilterns. They were due to finish in May this year but an extension was granted only due to no suitable replacement stock being available. Diesel pollution is a separate concern but nobody has called for an immediate removal of Class 165s and 168s from the route although a tender to replace the 30+ year-old 165s has now gone out for expressions of interest although the 168s will be around for a few years yet.

 

[RobShipway]

6 in 6 out per day = 12 in my book but then you say 2 extra departures remains within that limit? How?

On Saturday there are planned to be 8 departures & 8 arrivals which by my calculation is 16 not 12 so you stating that running any additional services isn't going to happen is simply incorrect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==


Thanks for those links, Unless i've read them wrongly one of the clear reasons for the complaints is the air quality around the station not just the noise from the 68's. Chiltern have quite clearly the made effort to reduce the noise since these complaints were first made by shutting the locos down on arrival and starting them up for departure as late as possible and now with veg oil the 68's impact on the air quality is far less than that of the Class 165's & 168's.

The paths though are marked as 158/168/170/175 DMU within RealTimeTrains.

 

[68011]

Because on a normal Saturday there are only booked to be 2 Class 68 diagrams featuring 4 arrivals and 4 departures. You claimed there were going to be 2 extra departures which makes 6...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

Look whichever way you want to dress it up you quite clearly stated they are allowed 6 departures & 6 arrivals per day, It's irrelevant that there are only 4 departures on a normal Saturday, It's quite clear the point i'm making is that you clearly state that they a prohibited to run anymore than 6 departures per day which is clearly nonsense when there will be 8 on Saturday but we will leave that now as your statement was clearly wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

The paths though are marked as 158/168/170/175 DMU within RealTimeTrains.

Again it's irrelevant what RTT says the path are timed as, the fact is there are planned to be extra workings with the Silver sets due to engineering works on WCML, this has happened on many occasions in the past and will no doubt happen again after this weekend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

Because on a normal Saturday there are only booked to be 2 Class 68 diagrams featuring 4 arrivals and 4 departures. You claimed there were going to be 2 extra departures which makes 6...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==



It's clear you're some kind of Class 68 enthusiast who doesn't like to hear any negative comments about 68s but the fact is that local residents at Marylebone have made repeated complaints about noise from Class 68s specifically and as soon as a suitable replacement is found they will be gone from the Chilterns. They were due to finish in May this year but an extension was granted only due to no suitable replacement stock being available. Diesel pollution is a separate concern but nobody has called for an immediate removal of Class 165s and 168s from the route although a tender to replace the 30+ year-old 165s has now gone out for expressions of interest although the 168s will be around for a few years yet.

Yes i do rate the 68's and i'm more than happy to hear negative comments. What i do not accept is people making statements saying that they can only run x amount of services with them when quite clearly in the past they have run more and they are doing so again this weekend and will no doubt do again in the future.

They were due to finish in May but there's obviously been a change of plan, there was an article in late July with the Managing Director of Chiltern see https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/h...-railways-decarbonisation-drive/64605.article.

here's a snippet -

Having made initial market soundings last year, Chiltern has obtained agreement from the Department for Transport to invite proposals from potential suppliers. It expects responses by the end of this year, helping to inform the preparation of a formal business case, and hopes to be able to award a contract within the next 12 months. This could see the new trains in service around 2027-28.

Allan said the next step would be to look at options for replacing the Class 168s, which were the first post-privatisation DMUs with the oldest sets dating to 1998. These are used on longer-distance services to Oxford and the West Midlands, which is beyond the range of a pure battery trainset. The operator would aim to keep its HVO-fuelled push-pull sets in operation during the transition to provide the necessary capacity, he added.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Children would like to keep the LHCS but the previous minister made a promise to the leader of Westminster Council that they would be withdrawn and that promise still stands.

The problem has been obtaining the replacement DMU stock in the short term to allow it to happen.

The fundamental problem is the noise that comes from a cl.68. Everywhere they operate on passenger services, there have been noise issues. The noise is very different to a cl.67 (which also caused issues at ME) but it seems to adversely penetrate to a greater extent.

 

[12LDA28C]

Look whichever way you want to dress it up you quite clearly stated they are allowed 6 departures & 6 arrivals per day, It's irrelevant that there are only 4 departures on a normal Saturday, It's quite clear the point i'm making is that you clearly state that they a prohibited to run anymore than 6 departures per day which is clearly nonsense when there will be 8 on Saturday but we will leave that now as your statement was clearly wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

It was you who claimed there are two additional departures this coming Saturday on top of the scheduled 4. 2 plus 4 equalled 6 when I went to school but maybe simple arithmetic has changed in the intervening years. Or are you now claiming there are more than 2 additional Class 68 departures on Saturday, so you were incorrect with your original statement? If more than six arrivals and departures are required for a specific reason such as closure of the WCML then that would have had to be agreed beforehand and can't just be done at the drop of a hat because Chiltern feel like it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2023 ==

They were due to finish in May but there's obviously been a change of plan, there was an article in late July with the Managing Director of Chiltern see https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/h...-railways-decarbonisation-drive/64605.article.

I've already explained that there was no 'change of plan' as such - an extension of Class 68 operation was granted by the DfT for one year until May 2024 due to no suitable replacement stock being available. If no stock is on the horizon next year then it's likely another extension will be sought by Chiltern but there is no guarantee it will be approved. As we have recently seen with AXC, the DfT is quite happy to withdraw stock to save money with no replacement provided.

 

[northwichcat]

I haven't read the whole thread but I think there's a few things to consider:
1. Would the reliability of the sets be improved if the loco type was changed?
2. TPE are advertising a reduced timetable from Dec 2023 to May 2024, will they need the sets again if they reinstate missing services in May 2024?
3. If it's decided TPE have surplus stock, should they be forced to release 185s to another operator to replace Sprinters, rather than putting modern carriages into storage, while Northern attempt to keep unreliable old trains in service? (Such as the ex-Anglia 156s and the 769s)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If it's decided TPE have surplus stock, should they be forced to release 185s to another operator to replace Sprinters, rather than putting modern carriages into storage, while Northern attempt to keep unreliable old trains in service? (Such as the ex-Anglia 156s and the 769s)

You’ve completely missed the point that the reason the mk5 sets go in December is TPE has a huge backlog of training and the loco hauled sets are the most intensive of all their stock for training.

The current cycle of not enough crew has to be broken and that will only be achieved by reducing the amount of outstanding training.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

while Northern attempt to keep unreliable old trains in service? (Such as the ex-Anglia 156s and the 769s)

They are relatively likely to be gone by the end of the decade. For more info see this thread:

Northern Tender for up to 450 units

Yes, 2028 suggests that they're expecting to make the award probably in 2024 maybe early 2025. So I think the only news we're likely to get the next twelve months or so is a shortlist. If you click on the link in the first post, it says 26th October

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Peter Sarf]

@68011

The noise issue with 68s is well known - it crops up in the TPE thread, particularly Scarborough. I remember reading the explanation is that in an effort to meet the latest emissions standards there was no room left within the locomotive body for a better exhaust silencer. Chiltern are lucky to get away with the level of noise they have. Every now and then extras run for special reasons - but that is the exception that proves the rule.

Marylebone is particularly closely overlooked by flats compared to other termini - especially at the station throat where BRB sold the old Marylebone depot site for flats. Someone shot themselves in the foot there but then back in those (pre-Chiltern) days things were in such decline that there was even talk of closing Marylebone and turning the route into a bus way.

The Mk5s would require more training wherever they go - why would Chiltern bother when their goal is to manage without the 68s.

Damn fine throbbing beasts lacking the annoying whine the 68s are.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The selling of the MPD was after the closure plan for Marylebone had been throughly trashed but it wouldn’t have made too much difference as the noise complaints from the flats on the other side were being received even in the days of the Albion engined DMU’s.

Some of the residents even objected to noise and smoke from the then steam specials!

 

[0x6019]

Send the Mk5s to Mexico with the HSTs, pair them up with up with some North American traction and possibly some Amfleets to create a train lives in infamy across multiple continents.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Send the Mk5s to Mexico with the HSTs, pair them up with up with some North American traction and possibly some Amfleets to create a train lives in infamy across multiple continents.

Yer, an' welcome to the forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just received this month's Modern Railways, and Tony Miles on an article on Page 8 says that Chiltern have commissioned noise reduction work on the 68s which "could pave the way for the Mk5 sets to move to Chiltern". It also says a solution for the cracking issue has been developed.

I think appearing in Modern Railways takes a rumour at least to the level of "credible", though obviously no guarantees.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've just received this month's Modern Railways, and Tony Miles on an article on Page 8 says that Chiltern have commissioned noise reduction work on the 68s which "could pave the way for the Mk5 sets to move to Chiltern". It also says a solution for the cracking issue has been developed.

I think appearing in Modern Railways takes a rumour at least to the level of "credible", though obviously no guarantees.

I agree - Appearing in Modern Railways would make me think its more likely than not.

I wonder if a better silencer on the 68s might strangle their performance ?.

 

[12LDA28C]

I wonder if a better silencer on the 68s might strangle their performance ?.

As I understand it when adapting the EuroLight design to the UK loading gauge there was no space within the body to fit a bigger / more effective silencer so I'm not sure how this would even be possible. It will be interesting to see what method of 'noise reduction' is being investigated.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As I understand it when adapting the EuroLight design to the UK loading gauge there was no space within the body to fit a bigger / more effective silencer so I'm not sure how this would even be possible. It will be interesting to see what method of 'noise reduction' is being investigated.

That is what I understood - smaller loading gauge meant less space for a silencer. I can only imagine a new design of internals to the silencer to mitigate the deep beat. Or maybe moving things round inside might help. Here is hoping the original design for the UK gauge was more of a speedy compromise than was possible with more time (and money ?).

 

[68011]

I've just received this month's Modern Railways, and Tony Miles on an article on Page 8 says that Chiltern have commissioned noise reduction work on the 68s which "could pave the way for the Mk5 sets to move to Chiltern". It also says a solution for the cracking issue has been developed.

I think appearing in Modern Railways takes a rumour at least to the level of "credible", though obviously no guarantees.

No not going to happen

 

[12LDA28C]

No not going to happen

Mark 5s on the Chilterns? Wouldn't be so sure about that. Anything's possible.

 

[68011]

Mark 5s on the Chilterns? Wouldn't be so sure about that. Anything's possible.

not according to your post 7 days ago...''No chance of that. Chiltern are already severely restricted with the number of loco-hauled trains they can run each day and can't run any more''