Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[Iskra]

They didn't have to go with the First bid and the DfT authorised the 442s scrapping.

The 68s get joined complaints where ever they run regular passenger services and the mk5a sets are so far not particularly reliable (in push pull at least). They make no sense for any of the DfT operations, so far this thread is finding routes the stock would be least worst at.

The 68s are hardly popular, you can easily hide the news with the new Northern order or ordering a few more 802s from Newton Aycliffe.

Burnham is more interested in running the local rail himself, like TfL.

I guess? But the 68s will be on a long lease and Beacon wouldn't want to jeopardise future DRS deals if they lease the mk5as overseas instead.


Companies accept a certain amount of risk, the mk5as being returned has increased the risk so leases will likely go up. I suspect we will see the return to longer leases.

A lot of that is very true.

In terms of the bit in bold, you'd think that shorter leases would naturally be priced higher as they inherently carry greater risk, so perhaps there may not be repercussions after all as that risk should have been factored in from the start. If Beacon Rail didn't take that into account, then that sounds like an internal Beacon Rail problem.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The consequences are that the DFT pays more for leasing future rolling stock to essentially cover the cost of the Mk5’s. Thus, the leasing company is going to be compensated either way, so it probably just wants to offload the problem as quickly as possible to any taker with the price being fairly irrelevant.

That’s assuming @Clarence Yard ’s statement is fact of course, as the statement is unverified.

There’s not going to be any compensation as the mk5s had a lease and of early next year which is what’s being adhered to.

 

[Iskra]

There’s not going to be any compensation as the mk5s had a lease and of early next year which is what’s being adhered to.

Not direct compensation, but through increased prices on future leases.

 

[yorkie]

There’s not going to be any compensation as the mk5s had a lease and of early next year which is what’s being adhered to.

I don't think you understood the point @Iskra was making; while it's not technically going to be 'compensation' there is no way leasing companies are going to allow such losses to continue to be made without recompense.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I don't think you understood the point @Iskra was making; while it's not technically going to be 'compensation' there is no way leasing companies are going to allow such losses to continue to be made without recompense.

From my professional experience with ROSCOs this is unlikely to make very little difference in the grand scheme of things as it’s such a small fleet. You only have to look at Akiem’s intransigence when it comes to the class 379s.

I do get your point as the railway currently is pursuing lots of short leases which do work out more expensive due to the risky nature from the ROSCOs but this is based on appetite for risk for long leases which at the moment is low.

 

[HOOVER29]

What’s rancid about an IET?

If referring to the seats the IETs and mk5s pretty much have the same seats.

It referring to the rise quality the mk5s ride just as hard.

God damn awful things for starters
Build quality too a tad iffy

 

[Bletchleyite]

Build quality too a tad iffy

I'm not sure I'd hold up anything made by "Cheap As F" against that. Least of all something that shares the cracking problem.

 

[yorkie]

God damn awful things for starters
Build quality too a tad iffy

Similar to CAF stock then, but can we get back to the matter at hand; anyone got anything to add regarding potential uses for these trains, or are we done here?

 

[Snow1964]

A lot of that is very true.

In terms of the bit in bold, you'd think that shorter leases would naturally be priced higher as they inherently carry greater risk, so perhaps there may not be repercussions after all as that risk should have been factored in from the start. If Beacon Rail didn't take that into account, then that sounds like an internal Beacon Rail problem.

If mess the LeaseCos around, and cause them to book a big loss, then it will become all Operators problem, and thus problem for DfT.

There is a risk they might say no more short leases, which becomes big problem if Operator gets a 2 or 3 year contract and LeaseCo all say something like minimum 5 or 7 years or not having it.

Imagine if you were XC where your lease for 220s and 221s runs out in 5 weeks, and Beacon Rail says sign up for at least 10 years or we want them all returned on 16th October. Or they could say can only have extensio on voyagers if you take all the mk 5s too.

Basically Beacon Rail can act in its own interest, and if it wants, it doesn't have to consider long term consequences either.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

One of the new ones on South Wales-London or Stirling-London routes that will need rolling stock quickly, or even GC if they can't get anything better than their current 180's.

It does seem like the sort of solution you can imagine appealing to Ian Yeowart’s Grand Union Trains as an easier alternative to procuring new 80Xs for the Carmarthen services. But presumably the GWML paths would be shot to bits even if 125mph 67s replaced the 68s.

 

[anthony263]

It does seem like the sort of solution you can imagine appealing to Ian Yeowart’s Grand Union Trains as an easier alternative to procuring new 80Xs for the Carmarthen services. But presumably the GWML paths would be shot to bits even if 125mph 67s replaced the 68s.

Question is could the mk5a rakes be hauled by a 93 and would it have enough power to haul the trains west of Cardiff ?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Question is could the mk5a rakes be hauled by a 93 and would it have enough power to haul the trains west of Cardiff ?

Given the 93s have only 1,205hp on diesel, I wouldn't think so?

 

[D6130]

Given the 93s have only 1,205hp on diesel, I wouldn't think so?

....but given that the trains have only five carriages - and the line speed West of Cardiff is nowhere greater than 90 mph - they might just work.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

....but given that the trains have only five carriages - and the line speed West of Cardiff is nowhere greater than 90 mph - they might just work.

The 110mph speed limit of 93s east of Cardiff probably also brings challenges.

 

[43096]

....but given that the trains have only five carriages - and the line speed West of Cardiff is nowhere greater than 90 mph - they might just work.

Staggering around with less power than a Class 25, even on five coaches, is not a 21st century solution. In fact, it would be even worse than that as train supply comes out of that power as well.

 

[Iskra]

Some hints from the transport committee as shared in this post:

TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

Exactly my sentiments, they seem to be simply throwing in the towel somewhat. Yet I'm sure many of us will still not be surprised if/when the reduced timetable starts to fall apart as punters shoehorn onto the remaining TPE capacity and timings are lost. As I've said over on the December 2023...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[xotGD]

So how's this for a mad idea:

Reinstate trains every 15 minutes across the Pennines, with the Mark 5 sets being used on Scarborough and Saltburn services. Hauled by 68s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So how's this for a mad idea:

Reinstate trains every 15 minutes across the Pennines, with the Mark 5 sets being used on Scarborough and Saltburn services. Hauled by 68s.

And cancelled half the time.

The staffing situation needs resolving first.

 

[Bantamzen]

So how's this for a mad idea:

Reinstate trains every 15 minutes across the Pennines, with the Mark 5 sets being used on Scarborough and Saltburn services. Hauled by 68s.

Wait!! Hold on here!! Are you suggesting a proper timetable using the stock that was procured for it? No, no, no!! This will never do!! Its not how the railways work, and definatley not how RUK works. If they end up running on TPE services, what will happen to threads like this? Won't someone think of the threads...

And cancelled half the time.

The staffing situation needs resolving first.

You are right, it absolutely does, although it should have been sorted a long time ago. If they are heading off for storage, at least a couple of sets should stay hanging around for training, with a view to recovering the timetable. Sadly I suspect this will not happen, and will just be another excuse to add to the railway's long list of "why we can't" excuses.

 

[AndrewE]

So how's this for a mad idea:

Reinstate trains every 15 minutes across the Pennines, with the Mark 5 sets being used on Scarborough and Saltburn services. Hauled by 68s.

And cancelled half the time. The staffing situation needs resolving first.

Of course the staffing needs sorting, but it is the best thing to do with the trains (in due course.)

Stock built for our loading gauge to work inter-regional expreses is obviously exactly what we need.

On top of that it should be a massive mark of shame that UK management just shrug their shoulders and propose dumping it when there is all that embodied energy tied up in it. Who cares about the planet, anyway?

 

[RobShipway]

There is a few places that use withdrawn rolling stock for purpose of overnight and hotel accommodation. Most of them using anything from Mk1 - Mk3 and older carriages. I wonder if there is any people or companies that are looking for coaching stock to convert into hotel accommodation?

I say the above tongue in cheek of course, but I do think we have gone round the block in this thread as to where the MK5A stock can be used. The only things left I believe suggestions that will take the carriages either to work on the rails abroad or to be doing work away from the national rail network, such as possibly being used for accident or fire training.

 

[N1]

There is a few places that use withdrawn rolling stock for purpose of overnight and hotel accommodation. Most of them using anything from Mk1 - Mk3 and older carriages. I wonder if there is any people or companies that are looking for coaching stock to convert into hotel accommodation?

I say the above tongue in cheek of course, but I do think we have gone round the block in this thread as to where the MK5A stock can be used. The only things left I believe suggestions that will take the carriages either to work on the rails abroad or to be doing work away from the national rail network, such as possibly being used for accident or fire training.

Or temporary classrooms perhaps?

 

[Energy]

Or temporary classrooms perhaps?

To be fair they do have a good proportion of tables

 

[Killingworth]

Whatever is proposed for these units any potential user will want proof that they are more reliable than their current levels of operation in service seem to suggest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair they do have a good proportion of tables

And are laid out so most students couldn't get distracted by looking out of the window

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2023 ==

Whatever is proposed for these units any potential user will want proof that they are more reliable than their current levels of operation in service seem to suggest.

I'd personally make taking them on conditional on the cracks being repaired first.

 

[Killingworth]

I'd personally make taking them on conditional on the cracks being repaired first.

If Beacon aren't already insisting on this under warranty they're suely going for scrap

 

[D365]

There is a few places that use withdrawn rolling stock for purpose of overnight and hotel accommodation. Most of them using anything from Mk1 - Mk3 and older carriages. I wonder if there is any people or companies that are looking for coaching stock to convert into hotel accommodation?

Notwithstanding that this thread seems to be telling a private rolling stock owning company how to do their job. Surely if there was any such interest, the Mk3 sleepers would be a better bet?

 

[RobShipway]

Notwithstanding that this thread seems to be telling a private rolling stock owning company how to do their job. Surely if there was any such interest, the Mk3 sleepers would be a better bet?

True, probably would be but most of those other than the ones still used by GWR seem to have gone to the preservation lines.

 

[68011]

Send them off to Chiltern for the Oxford services, they can then bin off the 165's.
Just need to install veg oil fuelling points at both Banbury and Wembley Depots like they have done at Stourbridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Send them off to Chiltern for the Oxford services, they can then bin off the 165's.
Just need to install veg oil fuelling points at both Banbury and Wembley Depots like they have done at Stourbridge.

Chiltern LHCS is 6-car (23m), these would be a bit short to be useful. Though I suppose with some work re-forming would be possible, but they're effectively unpowered MUs so it isn't just a depot shunt job.