Potential fix for Ordsall Chord?

[8A Rail]

Ultimately Manchester Victoria has way poorer connectivity options than Piccadilly, there is a reason that services have historically been concentrated at the latter station.

The only reason Manchester Victoria has received increased prominance in recent years was because it allowed the Government to claim a marginal journey time improvement without spending any money. As someone who has lived in Manchester for fifteen years, Victoria is a far inferior station and little can be done at this point to change that.

EDIT:

In my unlimited money utopia, I would probably put everything possible through a four track Castlefield corridor and close the connections between Victoria and the lines running west out of Manchester.

You referring to 'connectivity' with other trains? Interesting as not everyone who goes to Manchester, to change trains to other destinations (some do)! Manchester Victoria has good tram connections (with buses too) and also importantly closer to the shopping centre than either Oxford Road or Piccadilly. Yes Victoria as it stands is not the best station in the world but like all stations, just there to get on and off and get out of it asap. I live on the L&M line and I will not entertain the train to Manchester, as no guarantee it will not get delayed or get cancelled because it goes to through the Castlefield corridor. However, if it went to Victoria, then more chance of operating and not getting delayed either, than I would use it.

 

[HSTEd]

You referring to 'connectivity' with other trains? Interesting as not everyone who goes to Manchester, to change trains to other destinations (some do)! Manchester Victoria has good tram connections (with buses too) and also importantly closer to the shopping centre than either Oxford Road or Piccadilly.

The connectivity out of the Oxford Road/Piccadilly complex is far superior to that offered from Victoria.
The bus routes at Piccadilly Gardens and Oxford Road far exceed those available at Shudehill or the broader Victoria area in variety of destinations and frequency.

The tram is more or less a dead heat between the two stations.

About the only thing Victoria wins on is long distance coaches.

I'd argue that the shopping centre is only a small part of the reason people travel thorugh the railway stations in central Manchester, which often involve journeys from the broader city area that make superior connectivity far more important than the walk to the Arndale being longer.

 

[JonathanH]

About the only thing Victoria wins on is long distance coaches.

The actual coach station is between Piccadilly and Oxford Road, although perhaps its importance is slightly diminished with Megabus and Flixbus using Shudehill.

 

[HSTEd]

The actual coach station is between Piccadilly and Oxford Road, although perhaps its importance is slightly diminished with Megabus and Flixbus using Shudehill.

Yeah, I know a lot of the coaches have shifted.

Simplifying the buses down to Piccadilly Gardens and Shudehill Interchange only, and ignoring the 18 (4 per hour) because it goes to both Oxford Road and Shudehill:
In the middle of a weekday you are looking at 42(46) buses per our at Shudehill vs 88 buses per hour at Piccadilly Gardens.

obviously there are other buses that stop near Piccadilly/Oxford Road and Victoria stations, but I am skeptical they are skewed enough in Victoria's favour to overcome that imbalance!
Oxford Road has the Leigh busway buses after all.

 

[daodao]

The connectivity out of the Oxford Road/Piccadilly complex is far superior to that offered from Victoria.

There is no such thing as the "Oxford Road/Piccadilly complex". These stations are distinct. In addition, the ex-MSJ&A (Manchester, South Junction & Altrincham) Piccadilly platforms 13/14 are by far the worst platforms to use of all the platforms at central Manchester stations and also the most distant from the centre of Manchester. Their use should not be enhanced, if anything it should be reduced, and other than the Sheffield-Liverpool services that have no alternative, should not be served by long distance trains originating outside Greater Manchester/Lancashire/Merseyside.

 

[AndrewE]

There is no such thing as the "Oxford Road/Piccadilly complex". These stations are distinct. In addition, the ex MSJ&A Piccadilly platforms 13/14 are by far the worst platforms to use of all the platforms at central Manchester stations and also the most distant from the centre of Manchester. Their use should not be enhanced, if anything it should be reduced, and other than the Sheffield-Liverpool services that have no alternative, should not be served by long distance trains originating outside Greater Manchester/Lancashire/Merseyside.

That would be bad for people from the north west of the region going to their local airport... Why cut Cumbria off?

 

[Topological]

There is another option. There used to be a chord just east of Piccadilly (Ardwick junction I think) It swung north over Ashton old road and joined up with the line at midland junction the line diverges at Philips Park junction and from there you can get to Victoria station. If this chord was restored it could take some pressure off the Castlefield corridor. A portion of the viaduct is still there.

This would work reasonably well. Liverpool to Sheffield can come in that way then go out on the East side of Piccadilly without crossing the throat (whether via Stockport or Marple)

There is space for more platforms over there.

Of course the land was supposed to be for HS2, but if they are not going to build HS2 then it comes back onto the table again.

Solutions for Warrington are well discussed in this thread. Having a more regular stopping service on the CLC would be much better. Terminating these at a Cornbrook* station can then be tied in with Metrolinks own aspirations for a tunnel/extra capacity between Cornbrook and the centre.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course the land was supposed to be for HS2, but if they are not going to build HS2 then it comes back onto the table again.

Yes, now that any aspiration of taking HS2 north of Birmingham has been abandoned the land earmarked for the HS2 station could be used for some East Side extension of Piccadilly.

A proposal that could get effective would be to have a dive under somewhere near Longsight, then running lines on the East Side into a dedicated long distance station on the former HS2 site.

That would leave the main shed for local services.

 

[Topological]

Yes, now that any aspiration of taking HS2 north of Birmingham has been abandoned the land earmarked for the HS2 station could be used for some East Side extension of Piccadilly.

A proposal that could get effective would be to have a dive under somewhere near Longsight, then running lines on the East Side into a dedicated long distance station on the former HS2 site.

That would leave the main shed for local services.

Possibly, though how many platforms would be used for long distance? At times there can be 3 Avanti and 2 Cross Country in at one time (admittedly rare but I have seen it) so a 5 platform station would be a minimum.

Then there is the question of what extra trains would use the main shed. A better shuttle to the airport would be one obvious case, as would additional services from East Manchester. However, I dont think anything extra can come from Stockport as the fasts would still need to use Stockport viaduct.

The advantage of locals getting extra platforms on the East is that the curve can pull in trains from the West side too. Possibly even route Bolton trains through Victoria and round a chord into the East side of Piccadilly too.

One thing that would become confusing is the fact that you could leave Victoria for Piccadilly in both directions.

 

[JonathanH]

Possibly even route Bolton trains through Victoria and round a chord into the East side of Piccadilly too.

Anything that creates a crossing movement is going to need grade separation somewhere. The issue Manchester has whatever is done is identifying suitable places for that grade separation.

Bolton to Piccadilly via Manchester removes flows from the west side, and enters Victoria on the northernmost tracks, but somehow you do then have to cross over to run round the east side, and that needs grade separation.

 

[Topological]

Anything that creates a crossing movement is going to need grade separation somewhere. The issue Manchester has whatever is done is identifying suitable places for that grade separation.

My logic with this is that such trains would be terminating at Piccadilly. Certainly if the intention was that they went to the airport then they would need to cross.

There would be some new crossing movements at Victoria if anything coming from Salford Crescent needed to get across. However, that should be easier than trying to go across the whole throat at Piccadilly.

Trains like Liverpool to Sheffield would cross Piccadilly by virtue of arriving via the chord and then can go out on the East side without needing to cross again.

Another interesting fantasy option is like a Circle Line Edgware Road solution with a metro type service leaving from the East to go through East Manchester using the chord to get to Victoria then come back through Salford Central, Deansgate, Oxford Road and then stations to Manchester Airport. That would need other trains taking off the Castlefield corridor though so is pushing it a bit far. It would also mean fewer long distance trains going to Manchester Airport.

 

[AlbertBeale]

What are CLC services?

 

[Krokodil]

CLC = Cheshire Lines Committee. An amalgamation of lines run jointly by the Great Northern, the Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire (later the Great Central) and the Midland. It's what allowed the GCR to spread its tentacles from Manchester Central to Warrington Central, Liverpool Central and Wrexham Central (their names are no mere coincidence). In this case we're talking about the services through Warrington Central.

 

[daodao]

@Topological

Both the Ordsall curve and the Philips Park line should be used solely for empty stock movements, plus freight that has no alternative route, although the latter should ideally be routed another way if possible. The Philips Park line no longer has a direct connection to Piccadilly.

 

[Topological]

@Topological

Both the Ordsall curve and the Philips Park line should be used solely for empty stock movements, plus freight that has no alternative route, although the latter should ideally be routed another way if possible. The Philips Park line no longer has a direct connection to Piccadilly.

I think the whole point of the discussion was that the route of the chord is there (albeit very much in need of structural work) and that HS2 is no longer being built on top of it.

I suspect any view that the Ordsall Chord or Philips Park lines are solely for empty stock movements is just opinion rather than fact.

Since this is speculative discussion, there is little wrong with hypothesising that services could be routed through Victoria and round into the East side of Piccadilly.

 

[daodao]

Since this is speculative discussion, there is little wrong with hypothesising that services could be routed through Victoria and round into the East side of Piccadilly.

You can speculate, but it is profligate use of limited platform capacity at central Manchester stations for passenger trains to call at both Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[Topological]

You can speculate, but it is profligate use of limited platform capacity at central Manchester stations for passenger trains to call at both Piccadilly and Victoria.

I will not profess to being an expert in the timings of turnarounds at Victoria, but in the event that the extension of a service via the chord reduces the dwell time there it would free sufficient time for the service which presently runs via the Castlefield corridor to also run through Victoria to access the hypothetical chord.

Likewise, freeing the service from the West to come through to the East side of Piccadilly instead of Castlefield means that there are potentially paths to use the Ordsall Chord to bring trains from the East round.

Having services operate via both stations has obvious advantages for passengers who then do not need to think about which station the next train to X goes from (thinking particularly of Wigan and Bolton corridors here)

I doubt there will be any such ambitious plans for Manchester though, more likely the status quo will continue.

 

[Acfb]

The problem is that Castlefield corridor does seem pretty much optimised now with the 2tph from Blackpool N both going to Manchester Airport to remove conflicts at the throat of Piccadilly. I think the only trains through Castlefield you can remove are the Barrow-Manchester Airport trains (which could even be cut back to Preston) There is also the separate issue of lack of space for passengers on 13/14 which is in someways the biggest problem. You wouldn't want to remove 2tph from Leeds from the Ordsall Chord and then have those same passengers having to go to 13/14 anyway.

I take the point that the main train shed at Piccadilly or even Victoria are better for people coming from Leeds though as destinations than p13/14.

I've read all the threads on this on detail from a few years ago but I agree with people here who say this will need a lot more investment to solve.

I'm also not opposed to closing Deansgate and finding someway to link it with an improved Oxford Road.

 

[Greybeard33]

The problem is that Castlefield corridor does seem pretty much optimised now with the 2tph from Blackpool N both going to Manchester Airport to remove conflicts at the throat of Piccadilly. I think the only trains through Castlefield you can remove are the Barrow-Manchester Airport trains (which could even be cut back to Preston) There is also the separate issue of lack of space for passengers on 13/14 which is in someways the biggest problem. You wouldn't want to remove 2tph from Leeds from the Ordsall Chord and then have those same passengers having to go to 13/14 anyway.

I take the point that the main train shed at Piccadilly or even Victoria are better for people coming from Leeds though as destinations than p13/14.

I've read all the threads on this on detail from a few years ago but I agree with people here who say this will need a lot more investment to solve.

I'm also not opposed to closing Deansgate and finding someway to link it with an improved Oxford Road.

What is your reason for suggesting that residents of, and visitors to, Barrow in Furness should be deprived of the direct service to/from Manchester Airport? This service has operated for many years and I believe it is well patronised.

There is only 1tph over the Ordsall Chord (Saltburn to Manchester Airport).

 

[aavm]

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordsall_Chord) quotes Chief Executive of Network Rail, Andrew Haines:

"The Ordsall Chord is a classic example of a fantastic piece of infrastructure which has unlocked great new journey opportunities ... but where the new infrastructure was not supported by a sufficiently rigorous operating plan. Nobody really looked at how we would reliably operate 15 trains an hour, across six flat junctions in the space of a few miles, with disparate rolling stock, much of which will have travelled for several hours picking up potential delay on the way"

6 flyovers

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is your reason for suggesting that residents of, and visitors to, Barrow in Furness should be deprived of the direct service to/from Manchester Airport? This service has operated for many years and I believe it is well patronised.

It's also now a key part of the Chorley corridor, particularly now it's mostly 5/6 coaches and some of the Blackpools will be shorter (at least until the 323s arrive).

 

[Philip]

I think there are two big and realistic projects which could sort out Castlefield.

Firstly, the Oxford Road rebuild; build a lift or replace steps with a ramp on platform 1 and start pathing regular regional/local trains through it. Get rid of the current platform 5 and move the concourse/toilets/ticket office/cafes northwards so that they occupy the space where platform 5 is now.

The current site of the ticket office can then be a new through-line platform 5 with a new stretch of track looping back onto the current up line just before it crosses Oxford Road. So 4 through-line platforms in regular use, allowing faster trains to overtake slower ones. I would extend platforms 2 and 4 at the western end of both of them, to allow longer intercity trains to stop there.

Platform 3 can remain but be used as a looping terminating platform from either end with bi-directional running, with connections to the up and down lines at both ends. This would be better than the existing platform 5 as there would be much less crossing conflicts.



Secondly, get rid of platform 13 at Piccadilly and build over the taxi-rank to connect the existing platforms 12 & 14 by means of a big island platform, and knock through part of the southern train shed wall to allow platform 12 to become a through platform. This would make the two through-platforms at Piccadilly suitable for intercity use, with much more platform space. Oxford Road could then be used to hold regional/local trains to allow long distance intercity expresses to get ahead (whether or not they stop at Oxford Road themselves).

 

[Krokodil]

Isn't the building listed?

 

[8A Rail]

The connectivity out of the Oxford Road/Piccadilly complex is far superior to that offered from Victoria.
The bus routes at Piccadilly Gardens and Oxford Road far exceed those available at Shudehill or the broader Victoria area in variety of destinations and frequency.

The tram is more or less a dead heat between the two stations.

About the only thing Victoria wins on is long distance coaches.

I'd argue that the shopping centre is only a small part of the reason people travel thorugh the railway stations in central Manchester, which often involve journeys from the broader city area that make superior connectivity far more important than the walk to the Arndale being longer.

In other words, you just want to close Manchester Victoria station and have all traffic via the Castlefield corridor even with a a couple of extra new lines, with net result even more people in area's were it is already heavily congested - it makes no sense what so ever!

Manchester needs TWO mainline stations (not including Oxford Road) and both need to be used in a sensible way to serve the lines to / from / across the city. As things stand the 'Ordsall Chord' is a disaster and has just caused further problems especially there is no longer joined up thinking to increase rail lines in the Castlefield corridor. In the light of that, Manchester has no choice to maximise Manchester Victoria with its through routes and even out the trains using both mainline stations (especially Platform 13 /14 at Piccadilly). As things stand and we can all agree, the Castlefield corridor is one big disaster zone!

 

[Topological]

In other words, you just want to close Manchester Victoria station and have all traffic via the Castlefield corridor even with a a couple of extra new lines, with net result even more people in area's were it is already heavily congested - it makes no sense what so ever!

Manchester needs TWO mainline stations (not including Oxford Road) and both need to be used in a sensible way to serve the lines to / from / across the city. As things stand the 'Ordsall Chord' is a disaster and has just caused further problems especially there is no longer joined up thinking to increase rail lines in the Castlefield corridor. In the light of that, Manchester has no choice to maximise Manchester Victoria with its through routes and even out the trains using both mainline stations (especially Platform 13 /14 at Piccadilly). As things stand and we can all agree, the Castlefield corridor is one big disaster zone!

Agreed

Also, Manchester Victoria is a very useful station now. It is only really connectivity where Piccadilly wins.

Manchester needs to look at ways to make connectivity between the two big stations easier, rather than having routes fighting over which one they serve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed

Also, Manchester Victoria is a very useful station now. It is only really connectivity where Piccadilly wins.

Manchester needs to look at ways to make connectivity between the two big stations easier, rather than having routes fighting over which one they serve.

I don't see how it could get much better than a direct tram service every few minutes. Though it would be good for the tram to be included in all applicable through tickets.

Vic does need a major improvement project, though, it's a horrid station with very poor facilities.

 

[Topological]

I don't see how it could get much better than a direct tram service every few minutes. Though it would be good for the tram to be included in all applicable through tickets.

Vic does need a major improvement project, though, it's a horrid station with very poor facilities.

My understanding was that the number of trams had reduced, but the tram times change a lot so I do not know where it is up to now. Including the tram in train tickets would be good. The challenge for the trams is that street running limits capacity and quite rightly the trams focus on providing a solution for the suburbs of Manchester rather than just connecting Piccadilly and Victoria. From the local perspective full trams arriving at Victoria would be the desire, then there would be no capacity as a between station service (hence not being free for Piccadilly to Victoria I guess).

Certainly the most recent round of upgrades at Victoria made a huge difference to the station when I first started using it. The concourse always seems bright enough and there is actually a choice of shops now. The location being so close to the shopping centre means that there are plenty of options around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Full and standing trams aren't desirable. And they mostly aren't full and standing.

There is plenty of capacity for the required interchange.

 

[The Planner]

Secondly, get rid of platform 13 at Piccadilly and build over the taxi-rank to connect the existing platforms 12 & 14 by means of a big island platform, and knock through part of the southern train shed wall to allow platform 12 to become a through platform. This would make the two through-platforms at Piccadilly suitable for intercity use, with much more platform space. Oxford Road could then be used to hold regional/local trains to allow long distance intercity expresses to get ahead (whether or not they stop at Oxford Road themselves).

Seriously, take a look at Googlemaps before proposing this sort of thing, how are you going to get the curvature for the up line into 12 and still not end up with a seriously curved platform? You would be building over Fairfield St and London Road. 15 and 16 would be easier than that.

 

[Topological]

Full and standing trams aren't desirable. And they mostly aren't full and standing.

There is plenty of capacity for the required interchange.

I dont know, I would have thought that the point of TfGM (if they are still Transport for Greater Manchester) introducing trams is to maximise the modal shift from car to tram around Greater Manchester. By definition, that target means more people coming in from Oldham and Bury through Victoria rather than the tram arriving in Victoria with plenty of space on board. I do not think the aim would be spare capacity running on the majority of the network just to have capacity between Victoria and Piccadilly.

Whether TfGM are achieving their objective on the corridors that serve both Piccadilly and Victoria is an off-topic discussion.

If not at the point already, better connectivity between Victoria and Piccadilly for rail passengers will need looking at. The Ordsall Chord was supposed to be a part of that connectivity.