Potential fix for Ordsall Chord?

[matacaster]

What would be the effect of closing one or both of Oxford road and Deansgate?

Three heavy rail stations including Piccadilly seems a tad generous in such a short distance. More like tram network.

 

[RAPC]

Three stations are needed, especially around peak periods. Deansgate takes quite a bit of passenger capacity, which couldn't be comfortably accommodated at Oxford Road at busiest times. (It is often uncomfortably difficult to get on / off of platforms 2 and 3.)

Oxford Road is needed, as a number of services start there from platform 5. It also offers the opportunity to regulate services and for faster services to get ahead of slower trains.

Deansgate has a strong catchment area, which has increased with a lot of development at the bottom end of Deansgate, Castlefield and beyond.

Closing one, would be difficult, closing two would be ridiculous. The Ordsall curve was designed to be part of the scheme along with additional platforms at Piccadilly and 4 tracks between there and Deansgate. Without those, it is the white elephant that we see today. The solution is the needed development to facilitate the capacity, not closing stations.

 

[Rail Quest]

Can't see that working tbh. Shutting Oxford Rd would mean the 2tph CLC services would have to terminate at Piccadilly instead, making P13/P14 busier. Additionally - given guard/driver swaps for Northern services happen at Occy Rd would need to happen at Pic instead, again making P13/14 busier especially if a guard/driver is late and a train gets stuck at Pic (as what happens at Oxford Rd currently). Deansgate is also really popular for commuters - particularly thanks to easy metrolink connections.

I do wish the three stations got a propper rethink and the section needs investment such as desperately needed additional capacity. I just doubt closing the two stations would help as such.

Personally - I don't see why its too much to ask for Manchester to get four tracks on the entirety of the Castlefield corridor. If we were London - the section would be given an additional six tracks by now and Piccadilly would be 30 platforms

 

[The Planner]

What would be the effect of closing one or both of Oxford road and Deansgate?

Three heavy rail stations including Piccadilly seems a tad generous in such a short distance. More like tram network.

Oxford Road is getting re-modelled and rebuilt in about 4-5 years time, that won't be closing (apart from temporarily whilst they do works)

 

[Bantamzen]

Oxford Road is getting re-modelled and rebuilt in about 4-5 years time, that won't be closing (apart from temporarily whilst they do works)

Interesting, it would help a lot if all 4 through platforms could be used.

 

[snowball]

The Ordsall curve was designed to be part of the scheme along with additional platforms at Piccadilly and 4 tracks between there and Deansgate.

Would still have been two tracks at the narrowest point between Picc and OR, and two tracks through Deansgate.

 

[richard_S]

There is another option. There used to be a chord just east of Piccadilly (Ardwick junction I think) It swung north over Ashton old road and joined up with the line at midland junction the line diverges at Philips Park junction and from there you can get to Victoria station. If this chord was restored it could take some pressure off the Castlefield corridor. A portion of the viaduct is still there.

 

[The Planner]

There is another option. There used to be a chord just east of Piccadilly (Ardwick junction I think) It swung north over Ashton old road and joined up with the line at midland junction the line diverges at Philips Park junction and from there you can get to Victoria station. If this chord was restored it could take some pressure off the Castlefield corridor. A portion of the viaduct is still there.

What would use it? You could only serve Victoria and Piccadilly with a reversal.

 

[richard_S]

What would use it? You could only serve Victoria and Piccadilly with a reversal.

Liverpool Manchester Piccadilly service for one. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W32772/2023-12-11/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[The Planner]

Liverpool Manchester Piccadilly service for one. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W32772/2023-12-11/detailed#allox_id=0

So extending the journey time from the CLC for everyone? That service is an outlier, most go to Oxford Road and terminate.

 

[biggerisbetter]

I think closure of Deansgate would be positive but only as part of a wider package of measures to improve the corridor including:

• Rebuild of Oxford Road with 4 longer, accessible through platforms;
• South-western entrance to Oxford Road adjacent to First Street;
• Pedestrian bridge from western end of Oxford Road platforms along edge of viaduct and across the Whitworth Street West / A5103 junction to Deansgate Castlefield Metrolink;
• Platforms 15-16 at Piccadilly;
• Platforms 3-5 at Salford Central; and,
• Platform 3 at Salford Crescent.

All services to stop at all stations through central Manchester. I would also like to see rail platforms at Cornbrook and Central Park too.

Obviously very expensive but think this would improve capacity, connectivity and reliability of services through the Castlefield corridor.

 

[richard_S]

Biggerisbetter your ideas do not create any more paths along the Castlefield corridor. Its more paths that is needed. One way that might help is another line starting from the east of Piccadilly station and running to the southern side of platform 12 and rejoining the line further down Altrincham street. This could enable a goods train to pass a passenger train in the station and get out of its way before it starts. This might enable a few extra paths.

 

[cle]

Biggerisbetter your ideas do not create any more paths along the Castlefield corridor. Its more paths that is needed. One way that might help is another line starting from the east of Piccadilly station and running to the southern side of platform 12 and rejoining the line further down Altrincham street. This could enable a goods train to pass a passenger train in the station and get out of its way before it starts. This might enable a few extra paths.

CLC goes to Metrolink and Merseyrail - with Warrington Central as a Merseyrail style double-terminus. Manc side stations get the obligatory 5tph all stations - slower for Warrington itself and Birchwood - but way better for western Manchester/Trafford users, which have huge potential. And per Alty line, far better and more predictable as a turn up and go electric metro - this concept is proven every time, vs diesel 2tph chuggers.

Another option is building out Cornbrook into a NR station (ideally free Met transfers) with 3-4 platforms - and terminate the Oxford Road stoppers there, at a higher tph.

 

[Senex]

What would use it? You could only serve Victoria and Piccadilly with a reversal.

But surely we all know now that reversals to serve Manchester are fine. After all, wasn't that what was planned and promised when we once thought we were going to get a nice new high-speed line between Liverpool and Leeds?

 

[HSTEd]

The only solution that is likely to work long term is to get four tracks through the corridor, but that would require a significant quantity of demolition, even if the University Campus buildings are all going to be demolished anyway.

Otherwise, my next best suggestion is to convert Warrington Central to Metrolink and Merseyrail, paying for whatever Metrolink upgrades are required. That reduces CLC traffic through Castlefield to just the occasional freight trains and is likely to significantly reduced the pathing issues in the rat's nest of junctions.

 

[Arkeeos]

but that would require a significant quantity of demolition.

You could always double stack the railway, although I imagine that would get alot of opposition.

 

[HSTEd]

You could always double stack the railway, although I imagine that would get alot of opposition.

Whilst the New York subway has done things like that, it might not go down well with all the people who have bought fancy flats near the line when it suddenly gets several metres taller!
Also not sure that could be squared with the building listing at Oxford Road, since the high level platforms would likely force the demolition of the existing station building, although there might be room to get them in without wrecking the roof.

 

[richard_S]

The only solution that is likely to work long term is to get four tracks through the corridor, but that would require a significant quantity of demolition, even if the University Campus buildings are all going to be demolished anyway.

Otherwise, my next best suggestion is to convert Warrington Central to Metrolink and Merseyrail, paying for whatever Metrolink upgrades are required. That reduces CLC traffic through Castlefield to just the occasional freight trains and is likely to significantly reduced the pathing issues in the rat's nest of junctions.

If they are going to demolish the campus buildings. There needs to be in place an order to prevent them building next to the line leaving enough room for the tracks to be quadrupled.

 

[8A Rail]

For starters, Liverpool LS to Manchester (Oxford Road / Piccadilly / Beyond) should revert back to Manchester Victoria. Those people that wish to go beyond Manchester Oxford Road to / from Liverpool, should use CLC route whether that means increase frequency or length of trains or both. Likewise 'Trans Pennine' trains not using the CLC route, revert back via Manchester Victoria again. That should assist with present capacity issue.

 

[Krokodil]

Would still have been two tracks at the narrowest point between Picc and OR, and two tracks through Deansgate.

The current bottleneck is Oxford Road which may as well be a two-platform through station at the moment, with the odd service coming out of platform 5 and blocking the whole throat. Rebuilding Oxford Road with four full-length through platforms would make it flow much better.

 

[HSTEd]

For starters, Liverpool LS to Manchester (Oxford Road / Piccadilly / Beyond) should revert back to Manchester Victoria. Those people that wish to go beyond Manchester Oxford Road to / from Liverpool, should use CLC route whether that means increase frequency or length of trains or both. Likewise 'Trans Pennine' trains not using the CLC route, revert back via Manchester Victoria again. That should assist with present capacity issue.

Ultimately Manchester Victoria has way poorer connectivity options than Piccadilly, there is a reason that services have historically been concentrated at the latter station.

The only reason Manchester Victoria has received increased prominance in recent years was because it allowed the Government to claim a marginal journey time improvement without spending any money. As someone who has lived in Manchester for fifteen years, Victoria is a far inferior station and little can be done at this point to change that.

EDIT:

In my unlimited money utopia, I would probably put everything possible through a four track Castlefield corridor and close the connections between Victoria and the lines running west out of Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

But surely we all know now that reversals to serve Manchester are fine. After all, wasn't that what was planned and promised when we once thought we were going to get a nice new high-speed line between Liverpool and Leeds?

That isnt quite the same as looking for a solution to justify reopening a piece of track.

 

[Arkeeos]

Whilst the New York subway has done things like that, it might not go down well with all the people who have bought fancy flats near the line when it suddenly gets several metres taller!
Also not sure that could be squared with the building listing at Oxford Road, since the high level platforms would likely force the demolition of the existing station building, although there might be room to get them in without wrecking the roof.

Yes I imagine that "it looks ugly" would be the principle opposition.

But I don't think you would need another station it would just bypass and dump everyone at more platforms at Piccadilly.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Biggerisbetter your ideas do not create any more paths along the Castlefield corridor. Its more paths that is needed. One way that might help is another line starting from the east of Piccadilly station and running to the southern side of platform 12 and rejoining the line further down Altrincham street. This could enable a goods train to pass a passenger train in the station and get out of its way before it starts. This might enable a few extra paths.

Pretty sure it does though. The 4 through platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly have a greater throughput of services than the existing 2 platforms. Coupled with consistent calling patterns for all trains and removal of crossing moves to get in and out of the Oxford Road terminating platforms I don’t see how this doesn’t create additional paths?

This is suggested in the post below too:

Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

The best way of stimulating demand is to increase frequency. The railway has significant fixed costs which apply regardless of the level of traffic, so in the long term the best thing to do is to take a short term hit on profitability/subsidy levels to stimulate traffic growth. Making...

www.railforums.co.uk

Granted it wouldn’t create as many new paths as 4-tracking but that would be eye-wateringly expensive, result in a lot of impact on heritage assets and would result in a lot of disruption due to construction. Admittedly what I am proposing would be costly and result in construction and heritage impacts but of a much lower scale.

Can you also fully utilise the capacity of the four track viaduct without grade separating Castlefield junction or having a new grade separated junction to the east of Piccadilly? This would drive up costs even more.

 

[daodao]

What would be the effect of closing one or both of Oxford road and Deansgate?

Both Oxford Road and Deansgate stations are very useful and have significant catchments, so neither should be closed.

Train services into Manchester from the west need to be split 2:1 in favour of Victoria compared to the Castlefield line, as there are 4 tracks through Victoria and only 2 along the Castlefield line, which would extremely expensive and structurally challenging to widen to 4 tracks throughout. The Castlefield line also needs to take all services (passenger and freight) coming off the ex-CLC (Cheshire Lines Committee) line, so that leaves only limited capacity for trains coming off the Windsor curve and the Chat Moss line.

The best fix for the Ordsall curve is to mothball it; using it is a profligate waste of the limited station capacity in central Manchester.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Both Oxford Road and Deansgate stations are very useful and have significant catchments, so neither should be closed.

Train services into Manchester from the west need to be split 2:1 in favour of Victoria compared to the Castlefield line, as there are 4 tracks through Victoria and only 2 along the Castlefield line, which would extremely expensive and structurally challenging to widen to 4 tracks throughout. The Castlefield line also needs to take all services (passenger and freight) coming off the CLC line, so that leaves only limited capacity for trains coming off the Windsor curve and the Chat Moss line.

If Oxford Road is redeveloped as was planned, the western ends of the platforms will be very close to Deansgate anyway. Given the service patterns and proximity they don’t have discreet catchments as there will be plenty of people who walk past Deansgate to get a train at Oxford Road. If you closed Deansgate, the number of people who would no longer use the train as a result would be minuscule but the number who would benefit from reduced journey times and improved reliability would be significantly more.

Whilst there is obviously a compromise to be made, it doesn’t make sense to provide services as dictated purely by the balance of infrastructure if this doesn’t reflect where people want to go. If you simply divert more services to Victoria you will just make the remaining services through the corridor even busier and less reliable.

Based on the delays and performance of the Castlefield corridor today, it is clear that something needs to be done anyway. Trains were taking as long to get from Bolton and St Helens to Deansgate as they then were to get from there to Piccadilly. If passenger numbers and in particular leisure travel continues to grow, there needs to be a plan in place soon as I dread to think what it could be like in a decade’s time.

 

[Meole]

Closing platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly would reduce train journey time, passengers using Oxford Road instead, very few would be transferring inside Piccadily from a terminating service and its close walk similar to Moor st in Brum.

 

[43096]

Closing platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly would reduce train journey time, passengers using Oxford Road instead, very few would be transferring inside Piccadily from a terminating service and its close walk similar to Moor st in Brum.

So why not close Oxford Road instead?

 

[Krokodil]

And the prize for the daftest idea goes to...

Closing platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly would reduce train journey time, passengers using Oxford Road instead, very few would be transferring inside Piccadily from a terminating service and its close walk similar to Moor st in Brum.

Oxford Road isn't even connected to the tram network.

 

[AndrewE]

And the prize for the daftest idea goes to...

Closing platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly

Oxford Road isn't even connected to the tram network.

It would be if its platforms were rebuilt so long that you either walked west along a new walkway to (closed) Deansgate for a tram, or east to (closed Piccadilly pfm 12 and 13) - to change onto the thousands of trains people want to take forward from there!