Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Best tools for that job would be some big gas bottles and a cutting torch.
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
- Thread starter northwichcat
- Start date
Best tools for that job would be some big gas bottles and a cutting torch.
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RailUK Forums
Southport’s longest station ornament is a lost property toy dog wearing a face mask which can be found on top of the staff cabin next to the ticket barriers.
There haven’t been many out for a while have there. 458 was running ok when I went on it yesterday. When did a 769 last reach Stalybridge?
thealexweb
Member
- Joined
- 5 Jan 2014
- Messages
- 1,106
I wonder if Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge being wired in the coming years will improve the reliability. Fewer opportunities for the Diesel engines to fail to start perhaps?
424 was on stalybridge diagram last Thursday
I did 424 yesterday evening. It fair shot through to Bolton on electric and I was pleasantly surprised it kept time on diesel At least through to Hindley where it arrived early.
Got to admit, I’m more impressed than I had expected to be.
Got to admit, I’m more impressed than I had expected to be.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I don't think anyone is complaining about actual timekeeping, rather the fact they sit down more often than a 15 year old labrador?
Evening service completely wrecked on the Southport line tonight, 769450 sat down between Gathurst and Wigan after one engine went caput at Meols Cop and the other went after leaving Gathurst. Lucky it didn't fail where all the level crossings are or it would've been even more of a headache to assist. As it was it needed assistance from the front (by another 769 obviously) - the only things behind it were 150/156 units.
This evening Southport also happened be holding the British Musical Fireworks Championships, with hundreds of visitors from Wigan and beyond stranded after the last train to Wigan was cancelled at a moments notice and the last, a 2 car 156, left at 22:18, without a single spare seat and with passengers standing in the aisles for the full length of the train, with an empty 150 sat in the adjacent platform! Running 2 carriages to Southport should be outright banned as dangerous and so should cancelling the last train of the night!
ic31420
Member
It's stuff like this people who don't use rail much will try the train for the remember how they was abandoned and vow never use or rely on public transport again.
Running a two car train (presumably instead of a 4-car in this case) might not be comfortable but it is not "dangerous". If it was 'banned', (by whom I don't know), you could have had no train running, would most passengers prefer that? There are often cases of trains in the south-east scheduled as 8 or even 12-car where a shortage of a suitable unit reduces it to four-car, and this happens on lines where crush loading is the norm with the programmed stock. Cancelling the last train is more problematic, however the TOCs have defined responsibilities when that happens in terms of assisting passengers to complete their journeys and should be held to account if they don't.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Presumably 769450 was rescued by 769458. Fortuitously 458 was working the 1750 Alderley Edge to Southport and was terminated short at Wigan Wallgate at 1859, shortly after the failure of 769450 (which was last recorded on RTT departing Parbold eastbound at 1849, 14L).
If a rescue 769 had had to be sent from further afield, the disruption would likely have been even more severe.
769s seem to be suffering an excessive number of engine failures, at TfW as well as with Northern. Does anyone know if Porterbrook/Wabtec has identified the cause(s) and is developing modifications to address this issue?
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
769's are not fit for purpose. If there was a fleet of 500 or even 100 it would be bad enough with the quantity if failures, but they are nothing but a pile of junk.
Just stick a 37 the front permanently and be done.
Just stick a 37 the front permanently and be done.
warwickshire
On Moderation
Fully agree.
Then followed by December 2019.
No 769.
142 sent to store way to early.
And no 769 even to replace them with.
Another fiasco which lasted till March 2020.
However despite 769 training in progress by then .
And even then 769 failures and issues on and in training was clearly evident not ready for may 2020.
Even then Pacers was dismissed to the peak x2 only Atherton line before return short while after lockdown one.
However even then march 2020.
769 issues and failures and causes for concern to may 2020 timetable occurred.
Then covid. And now still ongoing.
And yes since may 2018. And carried on from the other fiasco in December 2019.
Staff not signed up on units and units made ready scrap and withdrawal on the stroke off midnight on the new Sunday off the December 2019 timetable change.
Even half a month early before they needed the dispensation.
Which could have been used.
And then December 2019. First Monday off the timetable change a repeat off may 2018.
And not even a class 769 in sight or available for service.
Late late again.
Class360/1
Member
Adding to that the 37 at rhymney is probably having the time of their life
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
About once a fortnight
Jamesrob637
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 6,083
More than I go dancing in clubs so the point stands
The 16:15 Southport to Alderley Edge appears to have been 2-car the past two weeks so glad I've not been on it!
Pinus contorta
Member
Apparently the Blackpool fireworks last train suffered a similar problem.
Kids crying, station rammed as last train out of Blackpool cancelled
Blackpool Council warned that the popular event was likely to lead to increased congestion
www.lancs.live
I would hope that those crying kids were accompanied by responsible adults at the sort of times last traisn are run.Apparently the Blackpool fireworks last train suffered a similar problem.
Kids crying, station rammed as last train out of Blackpool cancelled
Blackpool Council warned that the popular event was likely to lead to increased congestionwww.lancs.live
Killingworth
Established Member
But have we yet established the specific reasons why 769s are having such a bad time? Many of us support the bi-mode concept.
The failures of the service must be down to multiple factors, not all attributable to any particular type of train. None are deliberate and some involve combinations of incidents far away from Southport or Alderley Edge.
Significantly altering a 30 year old train was bound to bring challenges. To travellers who aren't as immersed in all things railway as members of this forum the trains are little different from any other 150 or 319, but they are all getting old.
Parts fail, spares may be hard to get, small classes mean fewer with experience and skills to fix them. It all builds up.
The concern seems to be greatest around the change from electric to diesel. If that's so why hasn't it been fixed? The diesel engines are new, so why are they breaking down? It won't be simple and will be commercially sensitive.
Having travelled the line on a unit that was working just fine I'm saddened to hear of the problems. I'm also saddened by the tone of glee that each failure seems to raise among some of the sceptics. Let's concentrate on getting the problems analysed and addressed, as I'm sure those responsible are desperately trying to do.
For me they've proved the bi-mode's worth. But we need to be ordering new stock that's proven in service and can't be ready for at least 2 years Maybe like 755s? They should have shaken out any introductory issues by now.
The failures of the service must be down to multiple factors, not all attributable to any particular type of train. None are deliberate and some involve combinations of incidents far away from Southport or Alderley Edge.
Significantly altering a 30 year old train was bound to bring challenges. To travellers who aren't as immersed in all things railway as members of this forum the trains are little different from any other 150 or 319, but they are all getting old.
Parts fail, spares may be hard to get, small classes mean fewer with experience and skills to fix them. It all builds up.
The concern seems to be greatest around the change from electric to diesel. If that's so why hasn't it been fixed? The diesel engines are new, so why are they breaking down? It won't be simple and will be commercially sensitive.
Having travelled the line on a unit that was working just fine I'm saddened to hear of the problems. I'm also saddened by the tone of glee that each failure seems to raise among some of the sceptics. Let's concentrate on getting the problems analysed and addressed, as I'm sure those responsible are desperately trying to do.
For me they've proved the bi-mode's worth. But we need to be ordering new stock that's proven in service and can't be ready for at least 2 years Maybe like 755s? They should have shaken out any introductory issues by now.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I'm one of the 769's biggest critics, but I take no pleasure whatsoever in their unreliability. I'm simply putting myself in the shoes of anyone who relies on them to commute.
There must come a point where the customer says to the vendor enough is enough?
There must come a point where the customer says to the vendor enough is enough?
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Whilst I acknowledge that this thread is about the Northern 769s, the TfW fleet are apparently in a similar failure prone condition. TfW have nine units for five or six diagrams and these are pure DEMUs with no traction changeover. Yesterday TfW managed to produce three out of the nine and employed four single 2 car 150s on the other diagrams / part diagrams.
Theoretically, as TfW 769 has "less moving parts" in as much as there is no 25kV involvement at all, but ironically, from what I read these things seem to fail in a similar sort of area which I think is around Llanbradach. One suggestion is that very high powered power lines are causing some kind of interaction with the unit electronics, but I find that very hard to believe.
Overall the problem seems to me to be marrying a lot of brand new equipment into a 30 odd year old design built with "Commodore 64" era electronics.
Killingworth
Established Member
Totally understand where you're coming from, and they should have established what's wrong and got it fixed by now. Ordering new trains is the real answer. These are too old to be more than a stopgap, but it shouldn't be so difficult to establish exactly why they keep failing.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
You could have put wires up from Wigan to Southport for the cost of these scrapheaps.
Killingworth
Established Member
Still a good idea, as well as Oxenholme - Windermere.
Agreed, some of the 'failures' have been attributed to freight delays between Castlefields and Slade Lane, others are defects that are shared with 319s and 150s (e.g. sticky brakes, doors failing, etc.). The 319s and 150s on other Northern diagrams have similar issues so they are not anything to do with the uniqueness of 769s traction.
Yup, same as for 150s, 156s and even MKIII coaches.
The concern seems to be greatest around the change from electric to diesel. If that's so why hasn't it been fixed? The diesel engines are new, so why are they breaking down? It won't be simple and will be commercially sensitive.[/QUOTE]
That's what I think is the crux of the genuine 769 failures, the 319 kit is 30+ years old but has been in continuous service since the late '80s with far heavier use and loads with Thameslink. The engine and generator are new (but proven in their own right) so the failures would seem to be system integration related. That was the essence of the design and development programme and the in-service shakedown programme has been frustrated by COVID-19 impacts on staff.
Me too, I went on one line last week and given their age and slighty compromised acceleration, they are still and significant upgrade on the nearly 40 year old short formed 150s for passengers.
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Do you know how much they have cost Northern?
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I always thought that, after all the trains are a technology demonstrator (waits for barrage of quips about demonstrating faults etc.) information gained from running will guide the railway when it has to break the current mad rush to buy cheap 'polluting only' DMUs from CAF.
Also, wiring Wigan to Southport would probably not be cheaper than the difference between DMU and EMU track access costs in the lifetime of the Northern franchise.