Penalty Fared on the Underground - Need advice

[jon0844]

I've taken to taking a photo of any machine(s) that are out of service, or not accepting cash/cards. It isn't a guaranteed method of convincing revenue staff, but something to back you up. It might just swing things in your favour, especially if you try and seek out a member of staff at the earliest opportunity (but as Yorkie says, you don't have to - and I wouldn't if it meant losing my seat or missing a connection).

Of course, you could be accused of having taken the photo at a totally different time, although that then means you would have redated the file and adjusted all the file header/EXIF data. It would seem unlikely that you'd go around with a phone full of photos of out of service machines and closed ticket offices, but I am sure some revenue staff would think that!

 

[bengley]

Why were you tying to find anywhere to top up if you always wanted a paper Travelcard? Why did you ever mention your Oyster, let alone produce it when stopped?

Call me cynical, but I think you could potentially have come up with the story about wanting a paper Travelcard as a way of hoping an appeal will be more successful. If that had been the intention all along, I really don't see why you would have shown it to the revenue staff.

What yorkie said, I just showed them my oyster because I:

a) didn't think twice, it's a natural reaction to present something I normally would present, but just not in this case

b) after I'd started getting my oyster out of my wallet I realised I messed up by producing it, but I couldn't just withdraw it from the RPI, especially as she put it (and my driving license) in her pocket while she took my details.

 

[jon0844]

Why were you going to seek out somewhere to top up the Oyster when you wanted a paper Travelcard? If you don't like using your Oyster, why bother about getting that topped up with enough credit when you are still on a mission to get a valid ticket and without much money?

Couldn't the Oyster top-up wait until another day?

 

[Daniel]

I'm slightly confused as to whether the OP wanted to use an oyster on a paper travelcard.

Initially you said you were:

I hadn't tapped in at Chesham because I did not have enough money on my Oyster card to complete my journey and the ticket issuing facility was not accepting bank notes (my only means of payment at the time).

I attempted to top up at Chalfont however I was in a hurry and a Baker Street train came in straight away before I had the chance to walk to the ticket machine.

This has happened before, so I decided I'd go to the ticket office at Victoria and top up there and ask the clerk to charge me the £3.40 for the journey there (which I have done before with no problem after explaining the rather annoying situation).

They didn't ask me if I intended to avoid payment, I just told her that I didn't tap in because of lack of ticket issuing facilities.

I've highlighted in the quotes above, sections which show you were attempting to use an oyster card.

However in post number 8 you then change to saying you weren't using oyster:

I had enough for an entry to be charged, but as I was going to be travelling around London a lot for the day I was going to buy a paper travelcard as I've had problems with the oyster cap before.

The only reason I produced my oyster card to the RPI on the train in this case was because it was all I had at the time (I later went on to buy a travelcard).

If you were in fact using oyster, then the fact that you:

had enough for an entry to be charged

And still didn't touch in, does make you liable for a penalty fare, and I don't see a way out of that.


Please remember, I'm not trying to say you're not telling the truth, I'm simply quoting your earlier posts, which have caused me to be confused.

 

[bengley]

I can understand why you're confused and I have confused the situation a bit:

The reason I mentioned topping up here is because this PF involves oyster and I didn't think the travelcard had any relevance to my case.

 

[jon0844]

You got the PF for not using your Oyster, despite insisting you were trying to buy a paper Travelcard as you have problems with Oyster capping?

How did Oyster get involved at any point? I'd have made it VERY clear to the RPI that you didn't have enough money on your Oyster and never intended to use it. That is unless the idea of the paper Travelcard came after as a possible defence, which seems likely from what you've written (not my own assumption) as you talk of wishing to top up your Oyster at the outset.

No wonder we're confused. No wonder the revenue staff were too, given you're going to appeal on the basis of something you feel has no relevance to the case and possibly didn't mention it at the time of getting the PF?

 

[yorkie]

I am also confused.

How much money did you have on your Oyster card when you were at Chesham?

I take it that there was no way to top up additional money at Chesham, so it all depends on how much money you had on your card at Chesham?

If there was enough to allow you to 'touch in' then your case is probably to weak to try to appeal this PF. If there is enough to touch in then you can touch out anywhere, that's my understanding.

 

[bengley]

I am also confused.

How much money did you have on your Oyster card when you were at Chesham?

I take it that there was no way to top up additional money at Chesham, so it all depends on how much money you had on your card at Chesham?

If there was enough to allow you to 'touch in' then your case is probably to weak to try to appeal this PF. If there is enough to touch in then you can touch out anywhere, that's my understanding.

I had £3.10 on the oyster. Yes I could have tapped in at Chesham but I wanted a travelcard and this was the reason I did not tap in.

My main reason is for the time limits as mentioned in this thread - I have often had trouble with being on a train for longer than the limit and being overcharged.

I just hate oyster if I'm honest!

 

[Greenback]

In that case, why did you try and top up at Chalfont as stated in the original post?

 

[jon0844]

If you hate Oyster, why not get rid of it? If I hate Ryanair, it's a bit hypocritical to then fly with them (although, my wife did just that recently but only because every other airline was sold out and it was an emergency).

Keeping the card but not using it is naturally going to open you up to problems like this. It simply looks like you didn't touch in to avoid paying the fare. See it from their point of view, isn't that what you'd think too?

 

[bengley]

If you hate Oyster, why not get rid of it? If I hate Ryanair, it's a bit hypocritical to then fly with them (although, my wife did just that recently but only because every other airline was sold out and it was an emergency).

Keeping the card but not using it is naturally going to open you up to problems like this. It simply looks like you didn't touch in to avoid paying the fare. See it from their point of view, isn't that what you'd think too?

I'd have trouble getting out at Victoria without a validated oyster card, I dunno what they expect, for me to walk along the tracks and jump over a fence?

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand that last post.

If you presented an un-validated Oyster at Victoria that had enough credit for you to have touched in at Chesham, I'd expect a PF to be issued (if they are authorised to do that, if not for the appropriate fare to be charged).

If you arrived at Victoria, not showing a Oyster and saying you had wanted a Travelcard and that facilities did not exist for it at Chesham, I'd expect them to issue a Travelcard.

 

[bengley]

I don't understand that last post.

If you presented an un-validated Oyster at Victoria that had enough credit for you to have touched in at Chesham, I'd expect a PF to be issued (if they are authorised to do that, if not for the appropriate fare to be charged).

If you arrived at Victoria, not showing a Oyster and saying you had wanted a Travelcard and that facilities did not exist for it at Chesham, I'd expect them to issue a Travelcard.

The latter being what I wanted to do.

 

[A60K]

Given the most recent post and video on the corresponding District Dave thread I doubt that I was wise to give Bengley the benefit of the doubt.

I'd have trouble getting out at Victoria without a validated oyster card, I dunno what they expect, for me to walk along the tracks and jump over a fence?

Anyone streetwise (or just a regular traveller) knows how easy it is to tailgate someone through the automatic barriers and exit without a ticket without being challenged.

 

[RJ]

So quite clearly there are inconsistencies within the OP's story. Either they should tell the truth about the situation or stop wasting everybody's time.

 

[cuccir]

Maybe I'm being generous but I don't think he's actively lieing. It strikes me that when he got to the station he probably didn't know whether he was going to use oyster or travelcard, then made the decision to pick up a travelcard when oyster started proving awkward? However I think on producing the oyster he must have little defence for pf regardless of intentions!

 

[bengley]

Maybe I'm being generous but I don't think he's actively lieing. It strikes me that when he got to the station he probably didn't know whether he was going to use oyster or travelcard, then made the decision to pick up a travelcard when oyster started proving awkward? However I think on producing the oyster he must have little defence for pf regardless of intentions!

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head, I hadn't planned to get a travelcard at the very first thing, but after I'd got to Chalfont and walked to the ticket machine I thought it would just be easier if I did get one.
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Given the most recent post and video on the corresponding District Dave thread I doubt that I was wise to give Bengley the benefit of the doubt.

Anyone streetwise (or just a regular traveller) knows how easy it is to tailgate someone through the automatic barriers and exit without a ticket without being challenged.

1) I have never and never plan to jump the barriers. I have never fare evaded when it was possible to get a ticket - the worst I have ever done in that sense is bought a child ticket after reaching 16 because I was strapped for cash, but I haven't done that for well over a year now.

2) That video was a bit of fun between me and a few friends and it's actually completely innocent. Nobody fare evaded in that video and I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Mojo]

You don't need to jump the barriers on the Tube if you have a UTS key...

There is a bit of a change of story here as it seemed you might have wanted to use Oyster but decided not to touch in and then deciding later it would be more favourable to have a Travelcard. Whilst my advice, and the advice of others above still stands, I would like to ask you to consider what you said to the RCI when you send in your appeal as it will all be noted down in their notebook, and if you had told them you had intended to Oyster, shown an Oyster which showed a positive credit then that will probably be noted down and referred to at a later date.

 

[Nick W]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head, I hadn't planned to get a travelcard at the very first thing, but after I'd got to Chalfont and walked to the ticket machine I thought it would just be easier if I did get one.

So your only remaining defence rests on either convincing the judge that you didn't touch in at the start of the journey, even though you had enough money, because you didn't have enough to pay for a whole day's worth of travel and that this is a sufficient defence to justify not touching in?

 

[jon0844]

This story changes far too much, but seems to confirm my theory that you thought of the paper ticket idea afterwards - quite possibly as a 'line of defence' to use because you were 'busted' for not using your Oyster.

And you might find it does work, although I'd have expected you to argue that at the time - not in a subsequent appeal where it seems all anyone talked about was the failure to use your Oyster.

 

[A60K]

1) I have never and never plan to jump the barriers. I have never fare evaded when it was possible to get a ticket - the worst I have ever done in that sense is bought a child ticket after reaching 16 because I was strapped for cash, but I haven't done that for well over a year now.

2) That video was a bit of fun between me and a few friends and it's actually completely innocent. Nobody fare evaded in that video and I don't see what the problem is.

If I accept that you didn't evade your fare in that video, you've just admitted that you previously did. What you are very obviously guilty of in that video is breaking several other bylaws - most stupidly using the doors between carriages to lark around filming yourselves. I don't expect you've seen the result of someone falling between a pair of carriages, but for goodness sake just grow up and stop behaving like an ignorant child. You've also revealed your full name and where you live which, given a possible prosecution for fare evasion, won't help your case if these get connected with you by someone.

Take this as a bit of genuine advice: you've not terribly mature for your age, and think twice before posting something like this again.

 

[bengley]

If I accept that you didn't evade your fare in that video, you've just admitted that you previously did. What you are very obviously guilty of in that video is breaking several other bylaws - most stupidly using the doors between carriages to lark around filming yourselves. I don't expect you've seen the result of someone falling between a pair of carriages, but for goodness sake just grow up and stop behaving like an ignorant child. You've also revealed your full name and where you live which, given a possible prosecution for fare evasion, won't help your case if these get connected with you by someone.

Take this as a bit of genuine advice: you've not terribly mature for your age, and think twice before posting something like this again.

Ugh, you'll never listen.

I didn't use the doors between the carriage, I filmed through the openable window.

I'm not the one acting immaturely in that video, I'm the one filming just to confirm. Besides, it was A VIDEO for ENTERTAINMENT for a specific target audience, that is not how either of us actually act in real life. And again if any bylaws were broken, I didn't do them - you can't see me in the video at any point, so unless you can list any bylaw I MYSELF have broken in that video, please refrain from making such comments again.

 

[jon0844]

People can go to jail for murder even if they didn't touch the victim, just by being there and not walking away or doing anything to stop the crime. I don't think you filming people breaking the law will do you many favours.

I haven't seen or heard of any video, so can't comment further.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ugh, you'll never listen.

I didn't use the doors between the carriage, I filmed through the openable window.

I'm not the one acting immaturely in that video, I'm the one filming just to confirm. Besides, it was A VIDEO for ENTERTAINMENT for a specific target audience, that is not how either of us actually act in real life. And again if any bylaws were broken, I didn't do them - you can't see me in the video at any point, so unless you can list any bylaw I MYSELF have broken in that video, please refrain from making such comments again.

It could be seen as an accomplice to ticket fraud to attempt to manually open a ticket gate for someone without a valid means of travel, even if it wasn't the right key.

 

[RJ]

I think it's in the best interests of the OP just to pay the £25 and learn from it.

If the OP tells the truth in his appeal (whatever the truth actually is), the appeal is more than likely to be thrown out, by which point the fine will probably have gone up to £50. I don't he should be encouraged to lie either, unless the forum advocates travelling fraudulently and trying to get away with it. The OP quite clearly stated in the original post that he intended to use Oyster for this journey, but didn't touch in as he felt he didn't have enough to cover for the whole day. He then later goes on to admit that he knew that he did have enough for a successful validation at Chesham. Then suddenly the story changes to the OP wanted a paper TC at Chesham but couldn't get one there. Then it changes to he only decided he wanted a paper TC upon arrival at Chalfont. In other words, the OP has admitted that they wilfully travelled without a valid ticket between Chesham and Chalfont at least so I don't see any moral gratuity in providing help to get the PF cancelled.

I'm sure somebody will be along with the "but the Travelcard from Chesham costs the same as the Travelcard from Chalfont so it's not fare evasion" argument soon but I think it's well documented that you need to hold a valid ticket or validated Oyster Card prior to commencing your journey. Given that the Oyster Card was given to the RPIs as the supposed ticket the OP held, any argument about the facilities at Chesham, whether true or false goes out of the window. As far as I can see, the OP made no effort to validate at Chesham or Chalfont and made no effort to purchase a ticket at Chalfont, despite apparently having been through the gateline at Chalfont twice.

I hadn't planned to get a travelcard at the very first thing, but after I'd got to Chalfont and walked to the ticket machine I thought it would just be easier if I did get one.

I had £3.10 on the oyster. Yes I could have tapped in at Chesham but I wanted a travelcard and this was the reason I did not tap in.

These two quotes directly contradict each other.

I hadn't tapped in at Chesham because I did not have enough money on my Oyster card to complete my journey and the ticket issuing facility was not accepting bank notes (my only means of payment at the time).

I decided I'd go to the ticket office at Victoria and top up there and ask the clerk to charge me the £3.40 for the journey there

Quite clearly shows intent to use Oyster for the journey.

I just told her that I didn't tap in because of lack of ticket issuing facilities.

I had enough for an entry to be charged, but as I was going to be travelling around London a lot for the day I was going to buy a paper travelcard as I've had problems with the oyster cap before.

Tapping in has nothing to do with lack of ticket issuing facilities so that makes no sense whatsoever, sounds like a poorly concocted fib to the RPI. Clearly you knew that you had enough to validate at Chesham/Chalfont so I can't see how you're intending to get out of this.

Sounds like a load of BS to me.

This wins the award for the most stupid advice I have EVER seen on here. The RPI breaks just about every rule going, as others have explained, and you say pay it! Not an RPI on commission by any chance?

What is stupid is when people who have no idea of how the PF, appeals or ticketing system works come on here to provide advice on those matters to other people!

 

[the sniper]

And again if any bylaws were broken, I didn't do them - you can't see me in the video at any point, so unless you can list any bylaw I MYSELF have broken in that video, please refrain from making such comments again.

Seeing as you asked...

6. Unacceptable behaviour
(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.

And you could be done for attempting to:

11. General safety
(1) No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except:
(i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which there is a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency; or
(ii) any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances.

(5) Attempts
Any person who attempts to breach any of the Byelaws numbered 9, 10, 11, 13(1), 20(2) and 21 shall be liable to the same penalty as given above for breach of that Byelaw.

...at Waterloo, when you appear to try to open the barrier for your friend using that key, or whatever it was.

If you were being picky, you could also have befallen this one at Marylebone, when you ran to the train, especially as you even acknowledge in the video that there was a notice telling people not to run:

12. Safety instructions
(1) An Operator may issue reasonable instructions relating to safety on any part of the railway by means of a notice on or near that part of the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such notice.

FYI, your friend broke 6.1 and 12.1 above too, and additionally:

6. Unacceptable behaviour
(5) No person shall damage or detach any part of the railway.

Or did that 'Please keep our trains tidy' sticker magic its way on to his belt buckle?

And I believe from MerseyRail prosecutions that feet on seats falls under:

(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

Quite a charge sheet.

At least you've learnt from this that you should be careful about what you say, do or post (videos, personal details, ect) on the internet, as it can come back to bite you on the ass.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm really confused. What videos are everyone talking about??

 

[bengley]

Most people are guilty of swearing on the train, I hear it all the time. Fair enough, it may be against railway rules, but it's hardly a serious breach of the rules.

Again, I didn't attempt to open the gate, it was for the video. If I did actually have a real gate key I wouldn't put a video on the internet of me using it, that's pretty stupid.

We weren't running for the train, again I just said this for the video. We were walking very briskly, but we literally just witnessed a man slip over just before we started filming that clip so we were cautious. Surely you can see from the video that we were hardly going at high speed?!

Yep - he peeled the sticker off. I didn't. I asked what byelaws I broke.

I never put my feet on seats because I respect this and I often tell friends to take their feet down. In this case I told him after I stopped filming.
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I'm really confused. What videos are everyone talking about??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtmCObvEPkA

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Again, I didn't attempt to open the gate, it was for the video. If I did actually have a real gate key I wouldn't put a video on the internet of me using it, that's pretty stupid.

You put a key in the UTX lock, and tried to turn it. Whether or not it is the right key it is still interfering with Railway equipment.
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Most people are guilty of swearing on the train, I hear it all the time. Fair enough, it may be against railway rules, but it's hardly a serious breach of the rules.

So you admit now you broke the byelaws, when earlier you said you hadn't? How many more parts of the story are going to change?

 

[bengley]

You put a key in the UTX lock, and tried to turn it. Whether or not it is the right key it is still interfering with Railway equipment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So you admit now you broke the byelaws, when earlier you said you hadn't? How many more parts of the story are going to change?

Yep, I admit that I broke one bylaw - swearing. So what? Everyone does it and I didn't even know it was a bylaw offence, so perhaps if I had known I wouldn't have sworn!