Penalty Fared on the Underground - Need advice

[bengley]

I was penalty fared yesterday on a Met train between Wembley Park and Finchley Road.

I had come from Chesham and was going to Victoria.

I hadn't tapped in at Chesham because I did not have enough money on my Oyster card to complete my journey and the ticket issuing facility was not accepting bank notes (my only means of payment at the time).

The station was also unstaffed at the time (about 1pm).

I attempted to top up at Chalfont however I was in a hurry and a Baker Street train came in straight away before I had the chance to walk to the ticket machine.

This has happened before, so I decided I'd go to the ticket office at Victoria and top up there and ask the clerk to charge me the £3.40 for the journey there (which I have done before with no problem after explaining the rather annoying situation).

I'm broke right now - I'm 17 years old, currently unemployed (although I am starting a job in January) and I do not have any way of paying this penalty before the 21 days is up and it goes up to £50.

Do I have any chance at an appeal considering the situation? (I didn't hand over any cash to the RPI on the train, who might I add, was very stubborn and I would have expected better behaviour from a front line member of staff. (Her colleague was much nicer and more reasonable))

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

Are bank notes a valid payment method? If so, and if the ticket office was closed and there was no way to pay in bank notes, the PF should not have been issued, and an appeal should be successful.

LU may be different (I would hope not) but certainly on NR there is no obligation to delay your journey to obtain a ticket en-route. If you do have sufficient interchange time then you should get a ticket at "the first opportunity" but the connection at Chesham is tight and this would not be such an opportunity.

It is disappointing that RPIs are acting in such a way, but does it surprise me? Nope. While there are of course good RPIs out there (including some on this forum!) there is very little done by the industry to combat the problem of rogue RPIs (see posts by jonmorris0844 regarding PFs for journeys from Old Street to Welwyn GC, for example).

 

[scrapy]

Can they issue a penalty fare to someone under 18?
A penalty fare is a civil debt which is unenforcable if you are under 18.

Under the TFL revenue enforcement and prosecutions policy you are also unlikely to be prosecuted for a first offence.

5. Young Offenders
5.1 TfL will not normally prosecute any person under the age of 18 on the day of the relevant offence. This is in line with the Home Office guidelines of diverting youths away where possible, from the criminal justice system.
However where the offence is of a serious nature, TfL may prosecute or in appropriate cases refer such an offence to the BTP.
TfL considers the following offences to be of a serious nature:
(a) Assaults on staff or other Public Order offences
(b) Criminal damage to TfL property
(c) Forgery and counterfeiting of TfL travel tickets and passes
(d) Illegal production or sale of TfL travel tickets and passes
(e) Repeat offences of any nature or offences committed after a previous warning.
(f) Breach of an Anti-Social Behaviour Order.
(f) Any other offence(s) where it is in the public interest to prosecute.
5.2 TfL will consider all offences objectively in deciding whether or not to prosecute. Youth offenders will be prosecuted in accordance with the TfL prosecution criteria contained in this policy after taking all surrounding factors into consideration including necessary Home Office guidelines.
5.3 Where TfL has established proper restorative process liaisons with local Youth Offending Teams (YOT) centres, youth offenders may be diverted accordingly. TfL will participate in the YOT scheme aimed at preventing future youth offences. Repeat young offenders will be prosecuted in accordance with this policy and the Home Office Final Warning Scheme.
5.4 Young passengers in receipt of free travel from TfL will be subject to the agreed Behaviour Code associated with the free travel scheme. A breach of the Behaviour Code could lead to enforcement action taken against the holder of the free travel pass ranging from temporary to a permanent withdrawal of the card depending on severity. For full details of the Behaviour Code and consequences of breach, please refer to the TfL website at www.tfl.gov.uk.

 

[Mojo]

I'll see if I can get an answer for you tomorrow, unless Daniel or some other LU employee is at work right now and can find out!

I'd like to ask though, was the ticket office scheduled to be closed at the time you visited? And did you admit intent to avoid payment to the Revenue Control Inspector when stopped on the train? Was the Pom not accepting bank notes, or was it not accepting your bank note? And was there anything else you said to the Revenue Control Inspector?

 

[bengley]

I'll see if I can get an answer for you tomorrow, unless Daniel or some other LU employee is at work right now and can find out!

I'd like to ask though, was the ticket office scheduled to be closed at the time you visited? And did you admit intent to avoid payment to the Revenue Control Inspector when stopped on the train? Was the Pom not accepting bank notes, or was it not accepting your bank note? And was there anything else you said to the Revenue Control Inspector?

The ticket office would have been closed at that time, but there would usually be a member of staff at the station for information purposes. This was not the case and the ticket barriers were left open.

They didn't ask me if I intended to avoid payment, I just told her that I didn't tap in because of lack of ticket issuing facilities.

The main machine which would normally accept bank notes, coins and cards was completely closed and the other one which takes cards and coins only was no use to me because I only had £25 in cash.

I attempted to argue my point to the stubborn inspector but she wouldn't give in so I got fed up with her nonsense and gave her my details.

 

[yorkie]

I attempted to argue my point to the stubborn inspector but she wouldn't give in so I got fed up with her nonsense and gave her my details.

My advice would be to put forward questions such as:

I believe notes are a valid payment type, is that not the case?
If not, where is this documented?

Do you accept that suitable ticket issuing facilities were not available to me where I started my journey?
If not, I will not be accepting a Penalty Fare until you make a reasonable attempt to establish that fact. If you do accept this fact, I have to ask if you are familiar with Penalty Fare Rule 7, can you confirm you are familiar with these rule?
If you are familiar with the rules, I trust you will realise you can not issue a Penalty Fare as if you do, your company will be in breach of the Penalty Fare rules, this is a serious matter that will be reported.

If I find myself in this situation in future, what do you suggest I do differently?
Where is this documented?

Can I have contact details for your line manager please, as I will be putting in a complaint. And can I take your name please?

Say it politely but firmly. Some of them appear to be bullies and know that if you react badly e.g. by swearing or being abusive, they can then use it as an excuse to get you done for byelaw offences, so don't let them wind you up.

Good luck!

I hope the RPI receives 'suitable advice'.

I found these rules here, I am not certain that the same rules apply to LU as it refers to NR, but I would have thought so (can someone confirm?)

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfaresrules.pdf

 

[Mojo]

Penalty fares on the Underground do not fall under the rules linked to above.

Another question; did you have enough money on your Oyster card for the entry charge to be deducted (ie. you would have gotten a green light), or did you have no credit at all?

 

[bengley]

Penalty fares on the Underground do not fall under the rules linked to above.

Another question; did you have enough money on your Oyster card for the entry charge to be deducted (ie. you would have gotten a green light), or did you have no credit at all?

I had enough for an entry to be charged, but as I was going to be travelling around London a lot for the day I was going to buy a paper travelcard as I've had problems with the oyster cap before.

The only reason I produced my oyster card to the RPI on the train in this case was because it was all I had at the time (I later went on to buy a travelcard).

I didn't mention this in the OP because it didn't seem relevant at the time, but obviously now it has occurred to me that if I wanted to buy a paper travelcard, I would have physically needed to get to a ticket machine or office to get this which I could not have done at the time.

 

[yorkie]

Penalty fares on the Underground do not fall under the rules linked to above.

Where are the rules and are they not governed by the DfT?

I had enough for an entry to be charged, but as I was going to be travelling around London a lot for the day I was going to buy a paper travelcard as I've had problems with the oyster cap before.

The only reason I produced my oyster card to the RPI on the train in this case was because it was all I had at the time (I later went on to buy a travelcard).

I didn't mention this in the OP because it didn't seem relevant at the time, but obviously now it has occurred to me that if I wanted to buy a paper travelcard, I would have physically needed to get to a ticket machine or office to get this which I could not have done at the time.

This muddies the waters. I would not have brought the Oyster card into it. The fact is you wanted to buy a paper ticket and had no means to do so therefore you should have been able to buy at the first opportunity, which would be wherever you were going to e.g. Baker St etc.

Showing the Oyster has no relevance at all and does not help your case. The question is whether or not it can hinder it. I do not know the answer to that.

 

[A60K]

As Yorkie says mentioning the Oyster when you actually wanted a paper ticket has complicated your case a bit, but you do still have a legitimate reason for not having a ticket - bank notes are legal tender and if LU cannot provide the means to accept them as payment for a journey then you should not be PFd.

Write to the address provided with a clear statement of the facts and the questions posed by Yorkie, along with a scan of the Z1-9 Travelcard you purchased later, and the PF should be cancelled without any further action. LU will have records of the precise state of the machines not accepting particular payments and window opening at Chesham.

Incidentally if it had been a through service rather than a shuttle you wouldn't have had the possibility of getting a ticket at Chalfont anyway!

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[FGWman]

Personally I think you should pay this. You were asked for a ticket showed an Oyster with enough money to touch in but you had not done so.

Pay now while you still can at the lower rate. Otherwise you will have to pay the full £50. I cant see any reason why they will cancel it from the story you have given. They will just say the travelcard is something you have purchased after the penalty fare has been issued.

 

[OwlMan]

The penalty fare should not have been issued if there were not ticket facilities available at the originating station. The inspector should have checked the OP s story and not issued a ticket.
Challenge the Penalty Fare and also make a complaint to TFL about the inspector issuing you a penalty fare illegally (see quote below).

GLA Act 1999 Section 245 paragraph 4
2)Subject to sub-paragraph (3) below, a person shall not be liable to pay a penalty fare under this paragraph if at the time when and the station where he started to travel on the train service there were no facilities available for the sale of the necessary fare ticket for his journey.

Peter

 

[Mojo]

What?! No way; the ticket office was closed so he couldn't have possibly bought a ticket. I've had a look through some documents and confusingly it shows that the issue of a Penalty fare was correct; which I'm sure is a mistake.

I have also read the training notes for RCIs; it is policy not to complete irregular travel documents for under 18s. In order for a PFN to be issued, the customer must be in the compulsory ticket area (yes) and liability must be established. The training notes say that the RCI must attempt to verify the information provided by the customer to establish liability and that the PF should not be issued unless it can.

You have every grounds to write to the address on the PF and submit an appeal, stating:
- The RCI failed to check your story
- There was no ticket office open
- The Pom was not in full working order
- You intended to purchase a ticket at your destination
- Schedule 17 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 which provides the authority for issuing Penalty Fares states ''... a person shall not be liable to pay a penalty fare under this paragraph if at the time when and the station where he started to travel on the train service there were no facilities available for the sale of the necessary fare ticket for his journey.''

 

[yorkie]

Personally I think you should pay this. You were asked for a ticket showed an Oyster with enough money to touch in but you had not done so.

Are you saying that if you want a paper ticket, and are in posession of an Oyster card with some credit on it, that you should use the Oyster card instead? If so, is this your opinion based on any particular rule or documentation? I'd be very interested in reading it. Do you have access to instructions to RPIs on this matter?

If I have some credit on my Oyster, but not enough for a Travelcard, and enough cash for a Travelcard, would I be able to 'trade in' the credit I used, toward the cost of a Travelcard, at a ticket office? Or would I be forced, once I had started using Oyster, to put the money on that instead?

Is an Oyster PAYG with the daily cap the same product as a Travelcard?

Can someone be denied the opportunity to buy a paper Travelcard when ticket issuing facilities do not exist, purely on the basis that they happen to be in possession of an Oyster card? ie, can they be forced to use Oyster in those circumstances?

 

[RJ]

This is what happens when there are no barriers in operation at stations, some people see being valid as a lesser priority, which isn't the case at all. The Oyster Card caps at the same price as a Travelcard so there's no real reason why the OP elected to be invalid for that part of the journey other than the near (but not quite) zero chance of meeting an RPI. In this case, the OP decided to admit that they had valid means to travel which they took the decision not to validate (and it's no secret that this qualifies one for a PF).

Not going to get into ifs and buts regarding connections at Chalfont, whether it was a through service or the OP not mentioning the Oyster Card. With the circumstances as they are, I'd say there's little chance of a successful appeal, that's just my opinion. For future reference though if you have no intention of using an Oyster Card for a journey where you couldn't get a ticket then it's a bad idea to show it to RPIs as the Oyster is fairly unlikely to magically validate itself.

 

[Wolfie]

Personally I think you should pay this. You were asked for a ticket showed an Oyster with enough money to touch in but you had not done so.

Pay now while you still can at the lower rate. Otherwise you will have to pay the full £50. I cant see any reason why they will cancel it from the story you have given. They will just say the travelcard is something you have purchased after the penalty fare has been issued.

This wins the award for the most stupid advice I have EVER seen on here. The RPI breaks just about every rule going, as others have explained, and you say pay it! Not an RPI on commission by any chance?

 

[RJ]

Are you saying that if you want a paper ticket, and are in posession of an Oyster card with some credit on it, that you should use the Oyster card instead? If so, is this your opinion based on any particular rule or documentation? I'd be very interested in reading it. Do you have access to instructions to RPIs on this matter?

If I have some credit on my Oyster, but not enough for a Travelcard, and enough cash for a Travelcard, would I be able to 'trade in' the credit I used, toward the cost of a Travelcard, at a ticket office? Or would I be forced, once I had started using Oyster, to put the money on that instead?

Is an Oyster PAYG with the daily cap the same product as a Travelcard?

Can someone be denied the opportunity to buy a paper Travelcard when ticket issuing facilities do not exist, purely on the basis that they happen to be in possession of an Oyster card? ie, can they be forced to use Oyster in those circumstances?

This is why I say that it shouldn't have been mentioned at all as it had zero relevance to the situation regarding the problems getting a paper ticket. All it's done is make the OP look like they were trying to avoid validating.

If I was in the same situation I'd have validated at Chesham to cover myself then made an effort to buy a TC and void journey at Chalfont. If it was not possible at Chalfont then I'd have had the journey voided at Victoria on the basis that it was genuinely impossible to get a ticket using legal tender. If I had no credit/no Oyster Card then I'd have told the RPIs exactly what happened without any irrelevant waffle. How likely would either of those courses of action led to a PF or any charge exceeding £9 (or whatever the price of a TC is) for the day?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This wins the award for the most stupid advice I have EVER seen on here. The RPI breaks just about every rule going, as others have explained, and you say pay it! Not an RPI on commission by any chance?

If the Oyster Card hadn't been presented to the RPI then I would agree.

 

[Mojo]

This is what happens when there are no barriers in operation at stations, some people see being valid as a lesser priority, which isn't the case at all. The Oyster Card caps at the same price as a Travelcard so there's no real reason why the OP elected to be invalid for that part of the journey other than the near (but not quite) zero chance of meeting an RPI. In this case, the OP decided to admit that they had valid means to travel which they took the decision not to validate (and it's no secret that this qualifies one for a PF).

I completely disagree; a capped Oyster card is a different product to a Travelcard. If I wanted to go outside of the zones on rail services by purchasing a boundary zone X ticket this would not be valid with Oyster PAYG but would be with a Travelcard, similarly you have to touch in/out on Oyster but not with a Travelcard.

The training notes for a RCI (admittedly this does not mean it's the law) also state that liability should be established, which is plainly not the case in this case.

 

[RJ]

I completely disagree; a capped Oyster card is a different product to a Travelcard. If I wanted to go outside of the zones on rail services by purchasing a boundary zone X ticket this would not be valid with Oyster PAYG but would be with a Travelcard, similarly you have to touch in/out on Oyster but not with a Travelcard.

The training notes for a RCI (admittedly this does not mean it's the law) also state that liability should be established, which is plainly not the case in this case.

It is a different product but still could have been used to keep the OP valid without having to buy anything other than a paper TC at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Daniel]

The oyster card being presented does muddle the waters as you did have means to pay. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, I'm just saying it makes things more difficult.

I'm leaning towards saying that the POM (MFM) was being serviced by the Supervisor... where you say it was 'closed' completely. If it was a note jam, the machine would be in service, just not taking notes. Only if it's being updated by the OCC or serviced would it be 'closed'. So when appealing, be careful to state that the machine was displaying a black screen with 'closed' on it, rather than just saying "it wasn't taking notes", (although mention that that's what you were trying to pay with).

I think Mojo has covered most things earlier on in the thread, with referencing RCI documents... if theres anything I can help with, leave a post and pop me a PM. I'm at work 1630-0130 today, so will try and help out if I can during my meal break.

---

If I have some credit on my Oyster, but not enough for a Travelcard, and enough cash for a Travelcard, would I be able to 'trade in' the credit I used, toward the cost of a Travelcard, at a ticket office? Or would I be forced, once I had started using Oyster, to put the money on that instead?

I'd void the last pre-pay journey and, in the same transaction, issue the travelcard. So yes, it's possible - although it's not something I remember being taught to me, just something I've picked up that I'm able to do. Anyway...

 

[bengley]

The oyster card being presented does muddle the waters as you did have means to pay. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, I'm just saying it makes things more difficult.

I'm leaning towards saying that the POM (MFM) was being serviced by the Supervisor... where you say it was 'closed' completely. If it was a note jam, the machine would be in service, just not taking notes. Only if it's being updated by the OCC or serviced would it be 'closed'. So when appealing, be careful to state that the machine was displaying a black screen with 'closed' on it, rather than just saying "it wasn't taking notes", (although mention that that's what you were trying to pay with).

I think Mojo has covered most things earlier on in the thread, with referencing RCI documents... if theres anything I can help with, leave a post and pop me a PM. I'm at work 1630-0130 today, so will try and help out if I can during my meal break.

---




I'd void the last pre-pay journey and, in the same transaction, issue the travelcard. So yes, it's possible - although it's not something I remember being taught to me, just something I've picked up that I'm able to do. Anyway...

The station was completely unstaffed at the time - the blind was down, gates all open and lights off in the ticket office.

The machine was closed with a back background and was also closed the day before this incident.

I've already appealed once and if it's unsuccessful I will appeal again.

 

[Daniel]

I am personally disappointed at seeing this, but here we go, from one of our ticket office handbooks.

/\/\/\

Type of ticket held
No ticket

Reason ticket not valid
or authority to travel

TIF of journey information
Ticket office at start of journey closed and POMs closed / reduced operation

Additional information
Customer offers payment for fare

Action to be taken REVENUE CONTROL
Penalty fare procedure

 

[Mojo]

I am personally disappointed at seeing this, but here we go, from one of our ticket office handbooks.

That's the thing I also mentioned in post #3 above. It surely has to be a mistake though, as all related documentation says that a PF does not apply if you boarded at a station where the ticket office was closed or the Poms aren't working (how else are you meant to buy a ticket?!)

The same document also says that in the event of an unvalidated Oyster card, the correct procedure is to set it so the correct fare will be charged (or something like that), not go for irregular travel or a PF!

 

[Nick W]

If I were you, I'd appeal to TfL as quickly as possible, if that fails, appeal to the IPFAS at the latest time possible for which you can still pay at the £25 rate. Make sure you publish what you intend to submit online here first with sufficient time for us to examine it and comment upon it.

If the appeal fails and you intend to take it to court, let me know as I'd be willing to assist!

Could I also ask for you for clarification on the following:
1. Did you at every point wish to buy a paper travelcard (the start, Chalfont, and later before you were caught by the RPI)?
2. Did you volunteer your oyster or did you wait until asked if you had one on you (if so, what was said by both you and the RPI before and after this point)?
3. I'm a little confused about the state of the machine. It was definitely closed as well as not taking notes, rather than just the latter, right?

 

[yorkie]

Could I also ask for you for clarification on the following:
1. Did you at every point wish to buy a paper travelcard (the start, Chalfont, and later before you were caught by the RPI)?

Just to clarify, the connection at Chalfont is insufficient to do it there, and the PF rules (at least the NR ones; I can only assume TfL is the same?) state that you should buy at the first 'opportunity' however there is no requirement to miss a train to create an opportunity. ie, if you had 20 mins to spare before your onward train, that would be an opportunity, if you had 2 mins that wouldn't. Somewhere in between would be a grey area and may depend on the station layout, the queues, etc... But the point is that he was not under any obligation to sort it out at Chalfont if that meant missing his onward connection.

 

[jon0844]

I attempted to top up at Chalfont however I was in a hurry and a Baker Street train came in straight away before I had the chance to walk to the ticket machine.

This has happened before, so I decided I'd go to the ticket office at Victoria and top up there and ask the clerk to charge me the £3.40 for the journey there (which I have done before with no problem after explaining the rather annoying situation).

Why were you tying to find anywhere to top up if you always wanted a paper Travelcard? Why did you ever mention your Oyster, let alone produce it when stopped?

Call me cynical, but I think you could potentially have come up with the story about wanting a paper Travelcard as a way of hoping an appeal will be more successful. If that had been the intention all along, I really don't see why you would have shown it to the revenue staff.

 

[yorkie]

No-one would plan that and then show the Oyster, as that would be stupid! Bengley made a mistake in showing the Oyster, I guess he panicked. He realises that was a mistake, we all make mistakes. The question is whether or not the fact he was in possession of an alternative means of validating the journey is relevant or not. I do not know the answer to that. Has this ever cropped up before? In the days of paper tickets and when the PF rules were drawn up this concept was unheard of and un-imaginable!

This really is quite a complex issue.

here's another example.

Say you come across a machine that only accepts card, there is no way to pay in cash and the ticket office is closed. If you then board the train, and present a card, you can't use the excuse that you had wanted to pay in cash! The question is whether or not this similar concept applies with Oyster PAYG and paper tickets, ie if there is no way to obtain a paper ticket, yet you have the ability to use PAYG, but you do not want a PAYG product, do you have to use PAYG and then faff about with getting a refund when you get a Travelcard?

I do not know the answer to this.

 

[Daniel]

I believe penalty fares on LUL come under the following act:

London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Act 1992 and the Greater London Authority

Which states:

A person (other than one falling within paragraph (b) below) shall not be liable to pay a penalty fare under this section if at the time when and the station where he started to travel on the train service there were no facilities available for the sale of the necessary fare ticket for his journey

Now the question is, does the fact you wanted a paper travelcard, not an Oyster cap, make the paper ticket necessary?

Either way I think it should back up your appeal.

 

[yorkie]

Good question. Thanks for your insight, it's most helpful

Another way of wording it is:

If you wish to purchase a Travelcard, does the possession of an Oyster PAYG (that you do not wish to use at that time) mean that such a purchase can be refused?

(e.g. say you asked for the ticket, got your wallet out, and the ticket sellers machine packed in, the seller then said they can't sell the ticket, spotted the Oyster PAYG, and said to use that instead and if you refused they would not open the barrier. Could they say that?)

There are times when I've had an Oyster PAYG on me, and yet I have purchased a paper Travelcard to avoid touching in/out hassles. It never occured to me that simply carrying the Oyster with me could lead to me being forced to use it.

I am not convinced we will find an answer within the act & rules that exist, as this concept was unheard of. The answer may be found by interpreting the act, but I am unsure that everyone is going to have the same interpretation.

Given that the issue is highly complex, is it fair that IPFAS get to decide? Is there a way to take the appeal to a higher level if IPFAS don't uphold the appeal?

 

[MikeWh]

I would say that the very fact that in some circumstances Oyster PAYG doesn't cap properly is reason enough to insist on a paper travelcard. Specifically, it is quite lawful to spend all day riding around without leaving the system, but if you do that you will be overcharged by the Oyster system.