Passengers 'help clear tree from line'

[Smethwickian]

According to this report, passengers helped clear a fallen tree from the Shakespeare Line in Warwickshire when it halted their train 'because Network Rail was busy'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-16422955

I would love to know how true this is. if so, a victory for common sense and getting things moving again, or a safety nightmare to keep trained rail staff awake in a cold sweat?

 

[Harlesden]

So what would happen if a gung ho middle aged or elderly passenger suffered a fatal stroke or heart attack while helping to move said tree.
Passengers should not involve themselves in any way in such a situation.
Perhaps doubters should watch footage of Tommy Cooper's almost instantaneous demise after collapsing on stage with a heart attack

 

[ainsworth74]

The report says 'some' passengers, to my mind that means it is quite possible that the passengers that were helping out actually are railway staff but they just weren't on duty. Otherwise it does seem like quite a risk for the train crew to authorise non-railway people to go line side to help move a tree.

 

[SS4]

Seems like it was largely a crew effort since surely their jobs would be too valuable to let passengers on the line

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So what would happen if a gung ho middle aged or elderly passenger suffered a fatal stroke or heart attack while helping to move said tree.
Passengers should not involve themselves in any way in such a situation.
Perhaps doubters should watch footage of Tommy Cooper's almost instantaneous demise after collapsing on stage with a heart attack

Provided the line is safely blocked by the signalbox, and common sense applies for strong , fit and able bodied persons to assist - what is the issue ? - apart from having cleared such matters many tmes as a railwayman - I have also seen and assisted other members of the public clear debris off roads - noteably after the 1987 storm in the SE , when self and a good number of passengers cleared advertising hoardings , debris and so on off main roads in the Wimbledon area - on a very late running N87 bus for the record.

I dont follow the Tommy Cooper comment at all. Are we not supposed to be part of a community ....?

 

[90019]

So what would happen if a gung ho middle aged or elderly passenger suffered a fatal stroke or heart attack while helping to move said tree.

Bad luck for them.
They would have made their own choice, no one forced them to help. It's called 'personal responsibility' - something that is sadly lacking nowadays.
It seems that everyone knows their rights, but few are prepared to accept the responsibilities that go with them.


Or do you believe that there is no such thing as an accident anymore? That there must be someone culpable, someone to blame, for absolutely anything that happens?

Passengers should not involve themselves in any way in such a situation.
Perhaps doubters should watch footage of Tommy Cooper's almost instantaneous demise after collapsing on stage with a heart attack

Do you genuinely believe that no one in the audience should have gone to help when he collapsed? :?

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps doubters should watch footage of Tommy Cooper's almost instantaneous demise after collapsing on stage with a heart attack

How can you even draw parallels between people shifting a tree, and a fez-wearing comedian suffering a heart attack?

 

[Clip]

Provided the line is safely blocked by the signalbox, and common sense applies for strong , fit and able bodied persons to assist - what is the issue ? - apart from having cleared such matters many tmes as a railwayman - I have also seen and assisted other members of the public clear debris off roads - noteably after the 1987 storm in the SE , when self and a good number of passengers cleared advertising hoardings , debris and so on off main roads in the Wimbledon area - on a very late running N87 bus for the record.

I dont follow the Tommy Cooper comment at all. Are we not supposed to be part of a community ....?

I dont think you can compare the two really. One is a public highway where members of the public are allowed to roam freely at their own will and the other isnt and has all sorts of policies and procedures before you can even get near a line to work on it.

Whilst we are all part of a community there are still some places where that community spirit must follow what is laid about before them or else anarchy would erupt.


No Idea about Tommy Cooper though? How did he die? Jus' like that.

 

[ChrisCooper]

So what would happen if a gung ho middle aged or elderly passenger suffered a fatal stroke or heart attack while helping to move said tree.
Passengers should not involve themselves in any way in such a situation.

Then again what happens if the same happens moving a tree in the road? It's not like anyone forced them to do it.
Of cource though the same thing could be said for the crew, afterall moving trees is not part of their job and they are not trained or equipped to do it, so had they been injured it could have been complicated too, and I suppose it does come back to cases like that station staff who got sacked for removing a trolley from the line.

 

[Flamingo]

Then again what happens if the same happens moving a tree in the road? It's not like anyone forced them to do it.
Of cource though the same thing could be said for the crew, afterall moving trees is not part of their job and they are not trained or equipped to do it, so had they been injured it could have been complicated too, and I suppose it does come back to cases like that station staff who got sacked for removing a trolley from the line.

Just to clarify, I believe he got sacked for going onto a running line, whilst off duty, to pick up litter - there was no trolley.

 

[DXMachina]

Not an electrified route, I assume the train driver called the signaller and got his train protected by red lights in both directions..

If so I don't see any safety problem with a handful of volunteers climbing out of a train, moving a tree, and getting back in again, and it's commonsense that the regulations should be bent this way rather than waiting hours for someone in a hi-viz to turn up in a jeep to do the same thing.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Just to clarify, I believe he got sacked for going onto a running line, whilst off duty, to pick up litter - there was no trolley.

Oh right. I remember the story from the time but then lost track of it.

 

[Marvin]

So what would happen if a gung ho middle aged or elderly passenger suffered a fatal stroke or heart attack while helping to move said tree.

What would happen if a diabetic died because they were trapped inside the stranded train, the crew wouldn't let them get out under any circumstances whatsoever, and it took NR hours and hours to get there (as it usually does)?

There has to be a bit of leeway for common sense in every rule and regulation. This incident (if true) strikes me as a perfect example.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some good , common sense replies coming through ......

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So what would happen if a gung ho middle aged or elderly passenger suffered a fatal stroke or heart attack while helping to move said tree.
Passengers should not involve themselves in any way in such a situation.
Perhaps doubters should watch footage of Tommy Cooper's almost instantaneous demise after collapsing on stage with a heart attack

Dear oh dear :roll:

As for Tommy Cooper, what about all the people in their 70s and 80s now who do football and other quite serious exercise regularly? Just becuase one relatively busy man had a heart atack years ago doesn't mean everyone who does work is going to die...

 

[NSEFAN]

I suspect there's more to this story than has been written. The media isn't exactly famed for its understanding of railway practices. :roll:

I doubt the traincrew would have asked normal passengers to help. It could well be the passengers who helped shift the tree were actually PTS trained staff travelling as passengers.

 

[Schnellzug]

Oh no, they probably don't have Track Safety Certificates and High vis Jackets. Health and Safety should prosecute every single one of them!!

Otherwise it does seem like quite a risk for the train crew to authorise non-railway people to go line side to help move a tree.

Erm.. wouldn't the trains be stopped, on account of the aforementioned Tree?

 

[O L Leigh]

Storm. Teacup.

Would I ask passengers to help me clear the line? No. Would I agree to them offering their assistance to clear the line? Possibly. However, it would depend massively on the situation, the location and the apparent suitability of the people offering to help. It would also be run past the controller too just to cover my own backside.

But then I would NEVER attempt to clear a fallen tree on the lines I work over, as any such obstruction is likely to be in contact with the OLE or will have brought them down. Consequently NO-ONE is getting outside of the train, not even me.

O L Leigh

 

[Smethwickian]

I suspect there's more to this story than has been written. The media isn't exactly famed for its understanding of railway practices.

Precisely why I said in my opening post: "I would love to know how true this is," hoping someone may have heard something more concrete during the course of today.

I'd be delighted if someone with London Midland contacts came up with some more reliable information, as we can speculate 'til the cows come home otherwise and will undoubtedly go round in circles quoting both incidents now familiar to this forum (let's not mention Lym*****n again, shall we?) and irrelevant matters such as Tommy Cooper's demise which only give some people an excuse for tastelessness.

 

[Flamingo]

Storm. Teacup.

Would I ask passengers to help me clear the line? No. Would I agree to them offering their assistance to clear the line? Possibly. However, it would depend massively on the situation, the location and the apparent suitability of the people offering to help. It would also be run past the controller too just to cover my own backside.

But then I would NEVER attempt to clear a fallen tree on the lines I work over, as any such obstruction is likely to be in contact with the OLE or will have brought them down. Consequently NO-ONE is getting outside of the train, not even me.

O L Leigh

You Elf and safety jobsworth Nazi you!

(Just thought I'd be the first to say it! )

Lets face it, I don't know any traincrew who would let ordinary passengers on or near the line to shift anything, unless there were lives at stake.

If they did, they would not remain traincrew for long afterwards.

Sorry if that offends any posters who thinks they are competent to do so as they know all about trains but just don't work for the railway, but that's how it is.

 

[O L Leigh]

You Elf and safety jobsworth Nazi you!

(Just thought I'd be the first to say it! )

Ta.

O L Leigh

 

[tsr]

What would happen if a diabetic died because they were trapped inside the stranded train, the crew wouldn't let them get out under any circumstances whatsoever, and it took NR hours and hours to get there (as it usually does)?

It's almost inevitable someone would have called an ambulance before they died, and 999 controllers are specifically trained to assess diabetic emergencies as much as any other, in order to send the most appropriate vehicle for evacuation - whether this is a helicopter, a 4x4 or a "standard" ambulance. In extreme circumstances, there's not much the RAF can't do to get someone away, either. It wouldn't be too hard for OHLE or 3rd rail to be isolated before a Class 4 (life-threatening call) evacuation took place.

 

[O L Leigh]

Where are all these fragile diabetic passengers coming from all of a sudden? What if a train was stranded and all the passengers sat quietly and waited patiently for the situation to be resolved? Wouldn't that be lovely...!!

I don't know a single member of railstaff who wouldn't place an emergency call in the event of a medical problem on their train. Short of being stuck halfway along the Severn Tunnel there aren't many places on the railway that are totally inaccessible. The emergency services can be directed to an access point if there really is no prospect of getting the train moved to a more suitable location quickly.

Quite why this line gets trotted out every time there is mention of strandings baffles me. Do you think the railway authorities haven't already considered these things or that we're naive about them? Please, can we keep these sorts of discussions away from the realms of fantasy?

O L Leigh

 

[tsr]

Where are all these fragile diabetic passengers coming from all of a sudden? What if a train was stranded and all the passengers sat quietly and waited patiently for the situation to be resolved? Wouldn't that be lovely...!!

I don't know a single member of railstaff who wouldn't place an emergency call in the event of a medical problem on their train. Short of being stuck halfway along the Severn Tunnel there aren't many places on the railway that are totally inaccessible. The emergency services can be directed to an access point if there really is no prospect of getting the train moved to a more suitable location quickly.

Quite why this line gets trotted out every time there is mention of strandings baffles me. Do you think the railway authorities haven't already considered these things or that we're naive about them? Please, can we keep these sorts of discussions away from the realms of fantasy?

O L Leigh

I was merely explaining a possible course of action which I could see being used in the event of an emergency. Of course risk assessments will have been done to ensure the vulnerable do not get stranded in dangerous situations. It has happened occasionally before, though, so it is understandable that people may be concerned.

 

[Flamingo]

Please, can we keep these sorts of discussions away from the realms of fantasy?

O L Leigh

Once upon a time, there was beautiful princess who was a fragile diabetic blind wheelchair user with asthma and a heart condition.

She decided one day to take a train journey to meet her prince charming, but an evil ogre of a Train Guard accosted her. "You do not have a disabled rail card, you are on the wrong train with your advanced ticket, and also I have pulled the pascom while I wait for Network Rail to come and remove a leaf from the track that we cannot drive over because the train might derail if we do" he told her. "While we are sitting here I am going to issue you a penalty fare, and a UPFN, and do an MG11, and I might even do a TIR, whilst preparing to have you put off the train at Guide Bridge, despite the ramp not fitting that platform, because to do otherwise is against 'Elf and Safety." he continued, with an evil laugh!

However, a brave Prince Charming was listening, and donning his magic Hi-Vis vest which rendered him invincible, took out his iPhone, and switching the video on, instantly uploaded it to YouTube, where it was seen by a brave Daily Mail journalist and attracted 500 comments and 4000000 views in five minutes. As soon as he saw the camera, the evil Guard vanished in a puff of smoke (or into his back cab for a smoke), and brave Prince Charming opened the emergency egress, pushing the beautiful princess up the 4foot as if they had stayed on the train he would have collapsed with dehydration and claustrophobia, and also had a panic attack.

And Prince Charming and the princess lived happily ever after.

The End

 

[O L Leigh]

Genius...!!

O L Leigh

 

[tsr]

Once upon a time, there was beautiful princess who was a fragile diabetic blind wheelchair user with asthma and a heart condition.

She decided one day to take a train journey to meet her prince charming, but an evil ogre of a Train Guard accosted her. "You do not have a disabled rail card, you are on the wrong train with your advanced ticket, and also I have pulled the pascom while I wait for Network Rail to come and remove a leaf from the track that we cannot drive over because the train might derail if we do" he told her. "While we are sitting here I am going to issue you a penalty fare, and a UPFN, and do an MG11, and I might even do a TIR, whilst preparing to have you put off the train at Guide Bridge, despite the ramp not fitting that platform, because to do otherwise is against 'Elf and Safety." he continued, with an evil laugh!

However, a brave Prince Charming was listening, and donning his magic Hi-Vis vest which rendered him invincible, took out his iPhone, and switching the video on, instantly uploaded it to YouTube, where it was seen by a brave Daily Mail journalist and attracted 500 comments and 4000000 views in five minutes. As soon as he saw the camera, the evil Guard vanished in a puff of smoke (or into his back cab for a smoke), and brave Prince Charming opened the emergency egress, pushing the beautiful princess up the 4foot as if they had stayed on the train he would have collapsed with dehydration and claustrophobia, and also had a panic attack.

And Prince Charming and the princess lived happily ever after.

The End

I have a EN 471:2007 Class 3 Hi-Vis Jacket, in orange, no less. Am I Prince Super-Charming?

 

[ushawk]

Some details have probably been missed with the story, that and when they say a "tree", its probably only a few branches - cant see it being a proper tree thats fallen.

Just curious but if the "passengers" were railway staff, would they be allowed to move the "tree" with permission, or do they have to wait for Network Rail for every situation ? (Which today could have been a long wait as they are very stretched).

 

[O L Leigh]

Things like that just get done. If you've got the tools and the manpower you just roll up your sleeves and get on with it. Clearing fallen trees/branches happens quite a lot.

O L Leigh

 

[Hydro]

Your typical emergency tool cupboard will come with an axe, a saw and a rope for these sorts of eventualities.