Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[AlexNL]

Those pax at New Cross probably heard about "people on the line at Lewisham" through social media, and know how long it can take to resolve such a situation without going anywhere. Given the circumstances they were in, they probably also decided to detrain.

When the first domino falls, the rest is soon to follow.

 

[edwin_m]

That at least addresses the point I made several posts back, that they did consider bringing the second train into the platform before shutting off power and indeed decided to do this but were overtaken by events. I guess the question still remains of whether that should have been done even sooner.

 

[Kettledrum]

I have NOT followed the 25 previous pages of discussion in this thread. For those who may be interested South Eastern made the following presentation to London Travelwatch this morning. I've shared the link solely on the basis people may like to see what they said. There is no intent on my part to correct / amend / criticise any previous comment in this thread.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=4524&age=&field=file

The timeline here is really interesting BUT - if there were 4 occasions when the tracks were clear ready to go when final safety checks were being carried out...... was this communicated to passengers either by the drivers or by twitter??????? According to the timeline the passengers self evacuated minutes later on 4 separate occasions. This suggests to me that the passengers appear weren't told about the progress, or had lost confidence in the rail authorities solving the problem........or the timeline is incorrect. The slides say the timeline is as follows:

17:40 – 2M48 stopped by emergency brake, ice causing power issues and faults
18:16 – driver of 2M48 resolves system issues on train, but cannot move off due to ice
18:36 – power isolated by Network Rail on two lines to de-ice conductor rail
18:40 – power ready to be recharged – final safety checks being carried out - ALMOST ALL CLEAR
18:45 – passengers on 2M50 self-evacuate onto tracks, power on all lines isolated
18:50 – passengers on 2S54 self-evacuate onto tracks
19:00 – line cleared, power ready to recharge – final safety checks being carried out - ALMOST ALL CLEAR
19:06 – passengers on 2M48 self-evacuate onto tracks
19:15 – line cleared, power ready to recharge – final safety checks being carried out - ALMOST ALL CLEAR
19:15 – passengers on 2S56 self-evacuate onto tracks
19:30 – more passengers from 2M50 self-evacuate onto tracks (time estimated)
19:32 – passengers from 2H50 self-evacuate onto tracks
20:15 – line cleared, power ready to recharge – final safety checks being carried out - ALMOST ALL CLEAR
20:26 – more passengers from 2M48 self-evacuate onto tracks
21:00 – line cleared, power ready to recharge – final safety checks being carried out
21:10 – London Fire Service check track using drones and
21:36 – line confirmed clear, power restored, queue of trains begins to move within the following 10-20 minutes

 

[etr221]

There seems to be to be a conflict between the 'timeline' - which says that 2M50's pax self evacuated at 1845, after the power had been off for 2M48 to be de-iced - and the RAIB summary, which says that they (2M50 pax) did so before the power was switched off, 'while the signaller was in the process of seeking special permission [from whom?] to allow the 16:26 hrs service to pass the red signal into platform 4'. Given that that move (of 2M50/the 1626 into platform 4) was the key to unblocking everything, and that it's not happening was what converted a relatively minor incident in a major one - dare I say near disaster? - it should have been a priority action, and I await with interest an explanation of why it didn't happen sooner.

A couple of other thoughts I've had:
Given the South Eastern were running an emergency timetable that day, had anything been done to 'pre-establish' gold and silver commands in anticipation of possible problems?
Where do Network Rail MoMs 'live' before they are called out? On that day (with emergency timetable) would it have been sensible to 'pre-position' them where problems were likely to have serious impact? Was Lewisham such a location?
In retrospect, could/should the emergency timetable have been more robust, to reduce the chance of a single failure causing the chaos it did?

 

[farleigh]

Well this seems to put the top hat on it - the situation seems to have been handled pretty impeccably by the TOC

 

[whhistle]

Link is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stranding-of-trains-and-self-detrainments-at-lewisham

This whole thing just stinks of passengers thinking they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want. Yes, it might have been awful on the train but unless your life is in danger, surely it's not that bad?

No doubt they'll be no consequences for anyone randomly getting off the train.
Does this mean I can also detrain whenever I feel like I should in the event of a breakdown? With no come-back?

 

[etr221]

I think - from the point of view of passengers on the overcrowded 2M50 - they were - and were aware they were - just outside Lewisham station. Had the train moved it would have been in the platform in a few minutes. If they detrained, they would perhaps be on the platform in 15 minutes or less. They had - I understand - received announcements that permission to move the train into the platform had been requested by not given; but not any stating what would happen, or when, to get them to the platform. In short - from their perspective - they felt abandoned by a railway which might, when it got round to it - get them off the train sometime that evening or the following morning (based on that morning's news). Given the prospect of a few more uncomfortable hours wedged on the train going nowhere, detraining and a short walk was a very attractive alternative.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Link is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stranding-of-trains-and-self-detrainments-at-lewisham

This whole thing just stinks of passengers thinking they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want. Yes, it might have been awful on the train but unless your life is in danger, surely it's not that bad?

No doubt they'll be no consequences for anyone randomly getting off the train.
Does this mean I can also detrain whenever I feel like I should in the event of a breakdown? With no come-back?

If the powers that be prove themselves to be wholly incapable of resolving a situation within a reasonable timescale, why should they not take matters into their own hands?

In a similar circumstance, in a built up urban area where I could clearly see buses, taxis or even a walking route which could get me to my destination only a couple of miles down the road I would be heavily tempted. The live third rail would be a discouragement, a station within a couple of carriage lengths would be an encouragement. On Rannoch Moor in a -12 blizzard I would wait on the train forever to be rescued because of the terrain and distance to my destination.

The extract someone linked to above says evacuate after 1 hour. The first person self-evacuated after more than one hour. The rail industry had failed to resolve the situation within their own reasonable timetable. Given the specific weather conditions, a duplicate / overlapping procedure should have been initiated. Try to de-ice and call out the de-training teams. If the latter then had to be stood down after 30 minutes, so be it. Does the fire service wait to see how bad a tower block fire is before it calls out enough pumps?

 

[Robertj21a]

Link is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stranding-of-trains-and-self-detrainments-at-lewisham

This whole thing just stinks of passengers thinking they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want. Yes, it might have been awful on the train but unless your life is in danger, surely it's not that bad?

No doubt they'll be no consequences for anyone randomly getting off the train.
Does this mean I can also detrain whenever I feel like I should in the event of a breakdown? With no come-back?

Don't agree at all. Passengers need to be treated as something much better than many are at present. We've previously discussed that about 1 hour is what many passengers would feel is adequate for something to be done, or at least for all the key facts to be communicated to them. We also considered whether it could stretch to, say, 2 hours if the communication had been clear, factual, and to most sensible people, a realistic attempt to resolve a difficult situation.

It's not for the passengers to feel that they are trapped for, potentially, hours on end [regardless of toilet facilities etc] while the rail staff carry out whatever procedures they feel are necessary - it's for the TOC to clearly communicate what is going on and when it should be resolved. It's the lack of such information that encourages passengers to make their own arrangements.

In this instance there's a train stuck just outside the platform and, apparently, despite requests from the driver, no authority given for it to gently proceed. Why ?.

 

[Robertj21a]

I suppose my key concerns are whether or not the various rail authorities will now recognise that good communication is paramount - along with the issue itself being quickly escalated to high authority - and practical solutions implemented locally if that's feasible.

 

[daikilo]

I fear that some who self-evacuated causing additional delay to the law-abiding remainder may also receive the enhanced delay-repay instead of being fined. I shudder to think what would have been said and done if any had been electrocuted or run-over.

 

[Via Bank]

Link is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stranding-of-trains-and-self-detrainments-at-lewisham

This whole thing just stinks of passengers thinking they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want. Yes, it might have been awful on the train but unless your life is in danger, surely it's not that bad?

No doubt they'll be no consequences for anyone randomly getting off the train.
Does this mean I can also detrain whenever I feel like I should in the event of a breakdown? With no come-back?

If you don’t like the idea of cargo that needs air, water, toilet facilities, and personal space, maybe passenger transport isn’t the business for you.

Or we could start acting like adults and realise that no matter what the rule book says, if people are kept in uncomfortable conditions for a long period of time, without a very good reason, they will make an attempt to leave.

 

[PermitToTravel]

This whole thing just stinks of passengers thinking they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want. Yes, it might have been awful on the train but unless your life is in danger, surely it's not that bad?

Being trapped in below freezing temperatures, with the heating switched off? When there are frequent buses still running on the other side of the fence, with the heating switched on?

"surely it's not that bad"?

 

[LAX54]

Was the heating off on 2M50 ? The power was still on, and train about to draw into the platform, when someone jumped, and that person caused the emergency power switch off, would it be at that point that the heating went off? plus of course there is not a mobile supervisor every hundred yards, if he is dealing with an issue elsewhere, it will take sometime to get there !

 

[Tio Terry]

I travelled - commuted - in and out of London for over 30 years up until October last year when I retired. For all that time I was a railwayman. What follows is my personal opinion of what has changed over that period, some of it may, or may not, apply to what happened at Lewisham. In no way am I trying to pretend I know anything about what happened in that incident and I await the RAIB report with interest.

My views apply to suburban services, I did do about 6 months of what might be called Intercity commuting between Norwich and Paddington (BRB) but from my experience long distance commuters are very different to short distance suburban ones.

Years ago, even though we had slam door stock which was easy to egress from, public detrainment was pretty rare, but, as mobile communication in the form of firstly phones and latterly the internet and social media, on train passengers are likely to be better informed than railway personal. This means that are more likely to make their own decisions about what to do.

We have an increasing number of Eastern Europeans within the country, many in the London area. In many Eastern European countries - and I have worked in some within their railway industry - it is not uncommon for the public to walk alongside, and to cross, the railway. They do not have the same kind of fear of railways as the UK does ( a lot don't have fences to keep people out), they have a different mindset to UK nationals.

We have at least two generations that know how to identify the third rail. I tested this on my nine year old nephew, he was able to tell me it was higher than the rails the train ran on, was supported by insulators and was quite close to another rail - that's been taught to many, many school children in the London area to my certain knowledge. Even my grandchildren in Norfolk are aware of this and the closest third rail must be the biggest part of a hundred miles away in north London. Perhaps the Railways education system has been very successful? This means that anyone who gets to go line side feels they are able to look after themselves?

Young, fit, Gym visiting individuals - male and female - see themselves as very able to exit a stranded train - especially when close to a station, and, knowing how to avoid the danger of the third rail, are not willing to be held captive without adequate communication and knowing what is going to happen. They WILL take matters in to their own hands.

The railway industry has got to get better at communication if it wants to avoid public detrainment. Social media means that those on the train are often better informed than TOC/NR staff. Decision making - like if it is acceptable to move a train under emergency situations - needs to be made faster, because if it's not, as soon as the heating fails and the lights go out, then you can expect a bail out.

 

[Antman]

Being trapped in below freezing temperatures, with the heating switched off? When there are frequent buses still running on the other side of the fence, with the heating switched on?

"surely it's not that bad"?

Exactly, wouldn't we all have done the same in circumstances?

 

[EM2]

Exactly, wouldn't we all have done the same in circumstances?

Nope.

 

[Robertj21a]

Nope.

Just as a matter of interest, how long would you have waited on board such a train ? - 4 hours ? 12 hours ?

 

[EM2]

Just as a matter of interest, how long would you have waited on board such a train ? - 4 hours ? 12 hours ?

We've had this discussion earlier in the thread. I'm not going to retread old arguments.

 

[Antman]

Nope.

Easy to say that when you weren't there.

 

[EM2]

Easy to say that when you weren't there.

Were you?

 

[Antman]

Were you?

No but if I was I'm pretty sure I'd have done the same.

 

[EM2]

No but if I was I'm pretty sure I'd have done the same.

And I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. So in news that will shock absolutely no-one, two people without experience of the exact situation described would react in different ways. Whodathunkit...

 

[AlterEgo]

And I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. So in news that will shock absolutely no-one, two people without experience of the exact situation described would react in different ways. Whodathunkit...

Well, all the rail staff tend to be saying they’d stay on the train forever, in one case even if it meant having to s**t themselves.

Meanwhile most of the ordinary passenger members would probably have offloaded.

I’d have probably waited 90-120 minutes before bailing.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well, all the rail staff tend to be saying they’d stay on the train forever, in one case even if it meant having to s**t themselves.

Meanwhile most of the ordinary passenger members would probably have offloaded.

This is the danger with people having an inbuilt bias and prejudice. Do you believe I choose to stay on the train because I am rail staff ? Do you also believe that I am not an 'ordinary passenger' ?

I have spoken with a couple of Drivers who were involved. Not all trains had an egress. 'Most' do not offload. It takes a single person to egress before the rest follow and even then it is still not instant and not in droves.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, all the rail staff tend to be saying they’d stay on the train forever, in one case even if it meant having to s**t themselves.

Meanwhile most of the ordinary passenger members would probably have offloaded.

I’d have probably waited 90-120 minutes before bailing.

Likewise, partly dependant on communication provided, toilets, warmth etc

 

[LAX54]

Exactly, wouldn't we all have done the same in circumstances?

as said, was the heating off at all ? certainly after the power went off, but then that was almost self inflicted by the people on the train, which was about to move forward into the station, but ended up with that train giving rise to the power being switched off .
As Tio Terrry says, the advent of Twitter and FB, means that they 'think' they know what is going on, bit more than likely reading information that is way wide of the truth !

 

[corfield]

Very interesting to drop back in on this topic, particularly the timeline and the comment by Tio Terry above.


So, again what strikes me is trying to persist with the same plan four times over a period of four hours.

That smacks of very poor situation management. Reasons could be poor training, poor delegation of authority or just incredibly poor judgement. But ultimately it is a complete failure to appreciate the situation and evaluate one’s plan and realise it is not working, and to have the initiative to change direction (i.e. give up on moving trains and just get the people off).

It is a classic example of a snowballing situation where you have lost control and persist with the “just one more push” mantra. This situation should provide textbook material for decades in numerous in how situations run away from those in charge, how easy it is to fail to see that and of course, what happens when you have human beings in the equation.

Again, to those who persist in criticising the passengers, I can only echo the comments that if you really think it is acceptable to view paying passengers as the source of the problem, that they “should just do as they are told and passively be controlled” and to be so wilfully blind to human factors, then involvement in an industry that exists almost entirely to move humans around, with numerous “friction points” where humans interact with the system and rules; probably isn’t for you. Given those are overwhelmingly rail industry personnel, it makes me feel the railways are decades behind aviation (my specialist area) in this field and have a long and difficult journey ahead. Hopefully this situation might be a spark in moving forward.

 

[EM2]

...have the initiative to change direction (i.e. give up on moving trains and just get the people off).

That needs a lot of trained personnel. At what point do you decide? Where do you get the personnel from? Have you got enough? If not, where can you get other agencies to assist? What onward transport is there from the location? With weather conditions so poor, can you get any at all? Will the weather mean those trained personnel can't get to site easily?
And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[EM2]

...it makes me feel the railways are decades behind aviation (my specialist area) in this field and have a long and difficult journey ahead. Hopefully this situation might be a spark in moving forward.

Explain to me then why, when I took a flight from Hahn recently, and boarded on time, and pushed back on time, we sat on a runway for fifty minutes with not a single word from the crew before we took off? I wasn't allowed to disembark if I wanted to, I was sweltering hot with nothing to drink. I couldn't go to the toilet, because the seatbelt light was lit. But I had to lump it.