Overcrowding during Easter

[gazzaa2]

So, let’s get this straight … they spend some or all of the week at home, yet expect the railway to have infinite capacity to be ready and waiting for their once-a-week leisure journey, that might only happen if the weather is good. This model simply doesn’t work unless they’re prepared to pay absolutely shed loads of tax and/or very high fares.

Just saying that's part of where the weekend demand comes from, Saturdays, and weekends, were already very busy before 2020, it's not a new thing. The problem is Saturdays are as busy now than 2019, or busier, yet we've still got reduced services via amended timetables, rolling stock shortages, staff shortages. It's peak times during the week that haven't recovered to previous levels, overall.

I do think railways need to look at their pricing for weekends and be looking to restore pre-covid timetables. Should it still be off peak if that's where the demand is? Could they introduce weekend season tickets to make up some of the shortfall from hybrid working? Do away with a lot of the cheap advance tickets?

 

[yorksrob]

So, let’s get this straight … they spend some or all of the week at home, yet expect the railway to have infinite capacity to be ready and waiting for their once-a-week leisure journey, that might only happen if the weather is good. This model simply doesn’t work unless they’re prepared to pay absolutely shed loads of tax and/or very high fares.

Just the weekend capacity that was available prior to the pandemic would be a good start.

 

[hkstudent]

So, let’s get this straight … they spend some or all of the week at home, yet expect the railway to have infinite capacity to be ready and waiting for their once-a-week leisure journey, that might only happen if the weather is good. This model simply doesn’t work unless they’re prepared to pay absolutely shed loads of tax and/or very high fares.

Though still, the absolute passenger number during peak hours are still higher than off peak, so should the railway is willing, there are still spare rolling stocks available.
But it’s really down to the will of DfT on whether willing to pay weekend pay to extra staff in a formal contract.

 

[paul1609]

And didn't the ToC's and NR warn the FA that there were going to be closures, arranged and notified more than 12 months in advance, and yet the FA decided to ignore it?

Id guess that Rail travel is pretty irrelevant to the FA. In the FA Cup 3rd Round we (portsmouth) had Spurs away. There was a rail strike that day. National Express who do the Pompey away travel supplied 55 coaches. It was quite impressive driving up the A3 overtaking lines of coaches as far as the eye could see.

 

[thaitransit]

Something does need to change regarding major hoilday weekend trackwork. Something that was unheard-of 10 years was major weekday trackwork. However in Australia this is often undertaken even affecting the weekday peak times.

Perhaps there needs to be a total ban on planned trackwork network wide on public holiday long weekends including the weekday before and after the long weekend.

As an alternative shorter distance weekday trackwork shut-down to reduce the length of bus replacement.

As for train overcrowding introduce mandatory seat reservations on all regional and long distance trains. I.e every ticket sold has a set seat number and no standing tickets to be sold. If the train is fully booked seat wise you find another train to book on!

Lastly supplementary road coach services could be used to reduce overcrowding on busy sections with additional temporary bus priority on rural highways where possible eg emergency lanes used as a temporary bus lane on expressways.

 

[The Planner]

Something does need to change regarding major hoilday weekend trackwork. Something that was unheard-of 10 years was major weekday trackwork. However in Australia this is often undertaken even affecting the weekday peak times.

Perhaps there needs to be a total ban on planned trackwork network wide on public holiday long weekends including the weekday before and after the long weekend.

As an alternative shorter distance weekday trackwork shut-down to reduce the length of bus replacement.

As for train overcrowding introduce mandatory seat reservations on all regional and long distance trains. I.e every ticket sold has a set seat number and no standing tickets to be sold. If the train is fully booked seat wise you find another train to book on!

Lastly supplementary road coach services could be used to reduce overcrowding on busy sections with additional temporary bus priority on rural highways where possible eg emergency lanes used as a temporary bus lane on expressways.

Reduce the track renewal yardage and it becomes very inefficient and costs more in the long run. In terms of blocking shorter sections, thats fine as long as you have the infrastructure both operationally and station wise to deal with shifting enough people.

 

[that1pepfan]

London Bridge - Littlehampton Yesterday Absolutely rammed with football fans amongst the regular passengers

 

[Horizon22]

Blockades with a diversionary route are rarely an issue providing a decent diversionary service can be ran, the Trent Valley was closed for a week last year and there is another one this summer. Old Oak Common will have a good few week long blocks over the next few years as well. Though anecdotally I have heard that Carstairs hasn't fared brilliantly for freight.

Although Old Oak doesn’t really have a diversionary route. Will be quite a change, especially for those used to the Elizabeth line now.

 

[thaitransit]

Reduce the track renewal yardage and it becomes very inefficient and costs more in the long run. In terms of blocking shorter sections, thats fine as long as you have the infrastructure both operationally and station wise to deal with shifting enough people.

It wouldn't necessarily reduce the amount of track maintenance just when it occurs. Although its not uncommon in Australia to use temporary speed restrictions to delay trackwork to a less busy time. The dreaded 40kph TSR is annoying especially when there is miles of it. However I much rather be on a comfortable slow train than a cancelled train!

 

[Horizon22]

I think the balance has moved in the wrong direction post-Covid in particular though.

I would say the correct balance is "provide enough seats to cope with normal peaks in demand". Exceptional situations such as the unsafe Oxford bridge are exceptional circumstances and should not require extra stock to cover for.

It's particularly galling when quite large numbers of newish EMUs have been withdrawn in recent years. This sort of thing I really strongly object to. And when politicians try to make the railway's job difficult by imposing demands for cost-savings.

So how much stock do you have lying around for “exceptional circumstances”. Most of the time the capacity is met with the stock available.

One issue is maintenance regimes tending to be higher on the weekend and that will be one thing to fix to release more stock, but not easy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

Going around London yesterday (Easter Sat) the problem was the sheer number of closures, compounding each other. Victoria Central was closed and SE were operating everything into Cannon St. Also the Elizabeth Line was closed between Paddington & Abbey Wood. Its not surprising that there was a lot of demand at London Bridge for the Jubilee Line - which was running a reduced service as it was closed north of West Hampstead and having trouble coping. I wonder how much co-ordination there was?

The problem, of course, is that Easter is an obvious time for a four day closure. It is interesting that Scotrail is proposing more closres for engineering on Sundays & Mondays rather than Sat - Sun as Saturday is now the busiest day of the week. Possibly some (not all) of the Easter closures could have taken place over a normal weekend given that Fridays & Mondays are quiter days (although Friday afternoons are now rather busy for leisure traffic). You are never going to win whatever you do though.

TfL do quite a lot of co-ordination although there is a disconnect with National Rail sometimes as they simply do not have the same guidelines plus it’s the same long, 4-day weekend to get everything done for everyone. Elizabeth line is a big package of work to completely finish the project.

Once again if you don’t pick this weekend you need a random Friday and a corresponding Monday to do it on, which affects all forms of traveller.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

So, let’s get this straight … they spend some or all of the week at home, yet expect the railway to have infinite capacity to be ready and waiting for their once-a-week leisure journey, that might only happen if the weather is good. This model simply doesn’t work unless they’re prepared to pay absolutely shed loads of tax and/or very high fares.

Didn’t sound like he said that? But I think it is a perfectly reasonably explanation that with WFH more prevalent, rail travel is not the “chore” it once was for many (expensive, packed, unsocial hours) and is therefore a more attractive option. I also don’t think people expect “infinite capacity”. Whilst the railway is unfairly picked on compare to the roads, if you were travelling to the local seaside town, I imagine the roads were packed too as it suddenly gets an influx.

It might still be packed if you pick the wrong time on Friday / Saturday but won’t be as expensive.

 

[Bald Rick]

Something that was unheard-of 10 years was major weekday trackwork.

This is not the case. I was doing major weekday trackwork 20 years ago, and I wasn’t the first by any means.

Perhaps there needs to be a total ban on planned trackwork network wide on public holiday long weekends including the weekday before and after the long weekend.

That implies doing work at other times that are busier? Why would you choose to inconvenience more of your customers?


Personally, I think what needs to happen is a ‘drains up’ review of why some activities seem to take longer now, and need more disruptive access, than they did 20 years ago.

 

[thaitransit]

This is not the case. I was doing major weekday trackwork 20 years ago, and I wasn’t the first by any means.





That implies doing work at other times that are busier? Why would you choose to inconvenience more of your customers?


Personally, I think what needs to happen is a ‘drains up’ review of why some activities seem to take longer now, and need more disruptive access, than they did 20 years ago.

Given my experience on the railways of late Monday and Friday is actually quiet compared to mid week or even weekends. Hybrid WFH seems to be permanent in Australia. It is especially strong in Victoria where office occupancy is under 50% the lowest in Australia.

 

[Ken H]

This is not the case. I was doing major weekday trackwork 20 years ago, and I wasn’t the first by any means.

Wasnt the first major blockade over many days the Crewe remodelling and resignalling. But Crewe is lucky, it has the independent lines.
I was lucky, I managed to catch a train that went that way so a good track bash. Had a non track bashing reason to travel too!

That would have been before 1987, I think

 

[dk1]

Lovely and quiet early this morning taking just 1 passenger from Norwich to Oulton Broad then 2 more to Lowestoft. Around 40 each way on the East Suffolk (ES) which is extremely unusual now but then there is an engineering block on the GEML. Lowestoft to Norwich however at lunchtime was very different with both a hen & stag party on this busy train which like the ES are also hourly these days.

Leaving the car park after shift was an absolute breeze helped by next to no retail.

 

[Rich McLean]

Pandemic aside, servere overcrowing and passengers left behind happens every easter. I have seen passengers left behind at Bodmin Parkway eastwards towards Paddington, to the extent, at Plymouth, passengers for Totnes, Newton Abbot and Tiverton Parkway are asked to move to a Cardiff or XC, and stops removed from the London to give passengers for Reading and London the best possible chance of squeezing on.

 

[philosopher]

This already happens by the simple fact that railways (and bus services) do not go everywhere that roads go.

To be fair, most people do not make journeys at 3am or visit some attraction in remote countryside very frequently. For the occasional times they do undertake those journeys they can usually use a taxi for all or part of their journey if they do not have a car. Someone without a car is unlikely to choose to live in somewhere without public transport. So the railways or public transport not serving every house in the UK 24 / 7 is generally not much of an issue.

When it does become an issue is when journeys that many people would take become excessively disrupted or difficult to make using public transport.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wasnt the first major blockade over many days the Crewe remodelling and resignalling. But Crewe is lucky, it has the independent lines.
I was lucky, I managed to catch a train that went that way so a good track bash. Had a non track bashing reason to travel too!

That would have been before 1987, I think

That was 1986.

Brighton was closed for 6(?) weeks in 1983(?) for remodelling / resignalling. Big blocks have been happening for a long time…

 

[Rail Ranger]

The Crewe remodelling was actually in summer 1985.

 

[Horizon22]

Lovely and quiet early this morning taking just 1 passenger from Norwich to Oulton Broad then 2 more to Lowestoft. Around 40 each way on the East Suffolk (ES) which is extremely unusual now but then there is an engineering block on the GEML. Lowestoft to Norwich however at lunchtime was very different with both a hen & stag party on this busy train which like the ES are also hourly these days.

Leaving the car park after shift was an absolute breeze helped by next to no retail.

A classic example of the “peak weekend”. This is what makes the headlines. I think it’s worse post-lockdown.

 

[nw1]

So how much stock do you have lying around for “exceptional circumstances”. Most of the time the capacity is met with the stock available.

One issue is maintenance regimes tending to be higher on the weekend and that will be one thing to fix to release more stock, but not easy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

What I was trying to say is that there should *not* be stock for exceptional circumstances such as the Oxford situation, but there should be stock to cover "ordinary" or "unexceptional" peak holiday demand. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[hkstudent]

Yes and no, there are already vast numbers of services that provide no premium service (standard class only in 2+2 or 2+3 seats)

Ultimately revenue is price x volume, so lower prices are ok if quantity of passengers can be carried. But need to balance the overall yield as no good offering a cheap ticket if can fill train with higher priced tickets.

As happened Good Friday, weather was good, most people will do a day out starting around 9-11am. And if they already hold a railcard, might make last minute decision to do day out which means tend to get a leisure rush late morning

Then also have limiting factors (rolling stock availability, platform lengths etc).

Though I would think of how price elastic are the leisure travellers are. Which the price may try to push up to the level that people yet to be pushed to coach or hiring cars

 

[dk1]

A classic example of the “peak weekend”. This is what makes the headlines. I think it’s worse post-lockdown.

Yes, it seems that way.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. I like to be somewhere in the country generally for my days off !

ISTR that’s nothing new in your case, though (likewise for me).

What does seem to have mushroomed is the influx of townies who now seem to turn up and treat the countryside as some kind of playground, dumping rubbish everywhere, starting fires, being harmful to wildlife, and generally behaving like grade A tools. This is another thing to add to the list of negative side-effects arising from the Covid response. In that sense it’s probably just as well that weekend rail capacity to places like Edale is finite.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That was 1986.

Brighton was closed for 6(?) weeks in 1983(?) for remodelling / resignalling. Big blocks have been happening for a long time…

Operation London Bridge in 1975 had the whole SE side shut for several weeks to remodel and re-signal it. Mind you when they first introduced colour lights at London bridge in 1928 they changed it over in 24hrs oh and that included abolishing 7 mechanical boxes.

Anyhow 21st century requirements means blockades are only way to deliver major changes to infrastructure but my take is we still haven't optimised them to ensure one set of disruption for however many weeks to get the job fully nailed. eg Victoria shut again for four days why didn't they shut it til 2nd week of Jan and get the job completed in one hit.

 

[Ediswan]

What does seem to have mushroomed is the influx of townies who now seem to turn up and treat the countryside as some kind of playground, dumping rubbish everywhere, starting fires, being harmful to wildlife, and generally behaving like grade A tools.

You may have a point. Pen y Pass car park has been oversubscribed for decades. Parking on the road, obstructing traffic, seems to be a recent development.

 

[Failed Unit]

We mange peaks like easter traffic without having excessive stock standing around. We have to move units around a lot, but we don't keep it just one orre two times a year.

I must admit a couple have things are made worse since privatisation. Central Trains used to be good at using the 150 from the West Midlands on weekends / bank holidays to strengthen Skegness services. (They would normally be out of use). Not sure how this worked out in terms of crew knowledge. They maybe needed refresher courses ever year as the route was normally 156 operated. When EMR took over they use the HSTs but that did seem a bit of an overkill.

EMR I see have also used Northern 158s to get Nottingham - Liverpool to 6 cars at times.

But back in BR days there were less fleet types around. I assumed a 156 was a 156 so you could move units around at peak demand times easier. I have photos of West Coast Mk3s in St Pancras in the past (Dragged to Nuneaton via Leicester). In BR it seemed easier to ”hand over the keys“ to another region. Saying that Hull trains runs into St Pancras so it isn’t impossible now. But I can‘t imaging it will ever be worth dragging a pendo into St Pancras. The paper work needed, would need a really long blockage at Euston.

 

[JonathanH]

I have photos of West Coast Mk3s in St Pancras in the past (Dragged to Nuneaton via Leicester). In BR it seemed easier to ”hand over the keys“ to another region. Saying that Hull trains runs into St Pancras so it isn’t impossible now. But I can‘t imaging it will ever be worth dragging a pendo into St Pancras. The paper work needed, would need a really long blockage at Euston.

Very much a non starter really.

I don't think you could physically get a 9-car Pendolino and two 57s into a platform at St Pancras, speed would be very poor, and there isn't exactly a locomotive release facility, so the best that could happen is putting the 57 on at Nuneaton and off at Kettering. Then, there would be issues sourcing the 57s, and their speed, hauling the Pendolino.

Something would have to give with the current MML timetable to make it work.

 

[Krokodil]

So, what’s your big suggestion of a “new approach” to avoid engineering work closures (I take it you must have one?!) I’m sure NR will be keen to hear it.

I wouldn't say "new" but previous work on the Southern WCML resulted in Virgin running trains into Marylebone, or MML running HSTs from Manchester to St Pancras via the Hope Valley. Some smartarse will now pipe up with "only four platforms at STP" to which I respond that Project Rio involved terminating a Nottingham(?) service short to provide a path - not ideal for the Nottingham passengers who now have to change trains, but at least no one ended up on a bus. Spare units released by terminating a service short could allow the 222s to run as double sets.

So, you have a choice to plan your journey around the bustititions. I’m going out of my way to do so myself tomorrow, because I have no interest in sitting on an RRB for an hour and a bit…

Which is precisely what everyone else has done, they've all gone via different routes and those were overwhelmed.

Easter weekend, a but like the weekend before Christmas, isn't representative of the majority of weekends.

You don't keep an oversized fleet just to handle 2 weekends a year - the costs of doing so massively outweigh any benefits.

Many parts of the non-NSE railway struggle on any weekend, not just bank holidays.

The fleets are already sized to carry ordinary business, therefore they should not be withdrawing them without replacement.

I wouldn't even go that far. XC in particular can't cope with "ordinary business".

Easter weekend, Bank Holiday and the weekend before Christmas are not "ordinary business" - its a demand spike.

Ordinary business is what you'd have something like 70% of the time. And 70% of trains over a year don't run full and standing.

Full and standing for more than short periods of time should be unusual. Passengers left behind (other than during disruption or after major sporting events) should be exceptional.

Excluding London and airports what UK tourist destination is so busy these days you need relief trains?

Anywhere with a beach. Though to be honest, it's not relief trains that are needed, they just need to run proper length formations on the existing ones. If relief trains are run, they need to run just ahead of the booked ones, not behind.

Railways should be run professionally and cost effectively. There should be very little unnecessary slack or surplus stock.
GIven the small proportion of travellers in the UK that use the train network there's little reason for the taxpayers to be contributing more than is absolutely essential.

1. Treating passengers as cattle is not professional. 2. More people would use the trains if they weren't treated like cattle and charged handsomely for the "privilege"

The trend I’ve noticed is that stuff with is free or very cheap seems to attract numbers. Anything paid-for far less so.

I concur. Snowdonia was overwhelmed, North Wales Police were forced to close the A5 while they towed away 40 (that's not a typo) dangerously-parked cars. Shame the Conwy Valley didn't reopen until Saturday, if it ran more frequently and connected with a properly-integrated bus service it would really take the pressure off of the roads.

So, let’s get this straight … they spend some or all of the week at home, yet expect the railway to have infinite capacity to be ready and waiting for their once-a-week leisure journey, that might only happen if the weather is good. This model simply doesn’t work unless they’re prepared to pay absolutely shed loads of tax and/or very high fares.

As others have posted, there is enough capacity across the UK's fleet, it's just in the wrong places. Our poor rate of electrification and the fragmented nature of the railway means that it's all-but impossible to hire units between operators like we used to, the days of a DMMU being a DMMU or a Mk2 being a Mk2 are long one (no more GNER HSTs working XC services on weekends).

 

[TheBigD]

I must admit a couple have things are made worse since privatisation. Central Trains used to be good at using the 150 from the West Midlands on weekends / bank holidays to strengthen Skegness services. (They would normally be out of use). Not sure how this worked out in terms of crew knowledge. They maybe needed refresher courses ever year as the route was normally 156 operated. When EMR took over they use the HSTs but that did seem a bit of an overkill.

EMR I see have also used Northern 158s to get Nottingham - Liverpool to 6 cars at times.

But back in BR days there were less fleet types around. I assumed a 156 was a 156 so you could move units around at peak demand times easier. I have photos of West Coast Mk3s in St Pancras in the past (Dragged to Nuneaton via Leicester). In BR it seemed easier to ”hand over the keys“ to another region. Saying that Hull trains runs into St Pancras so it isn’t impossible now. But I can‘t imaging it will ever be worth dragging a pendo into St Pancras. The paper work needed, would need a really long blockage at Euston.

A few points...

Most Nottingham crews signed the Centro 150s as they turned up on all sorts of East Mids workings. Sending them to Skeggy on a summer Saturday wasn't an issue. It was only towards the end of the Central Trains Franchise that crew knowledge lapsed as they were increasingly confined to the West Midlands.

I think it was the ex EMR 156s that Northern got that EMR borrowed for strengthening some Liverpool-Nottingham workings but happy to be corrected on this.

In the 80s/90s St Pancras would regulary see WCML services, usually diesel hauled Bedford to Nuneaton and vv. Obviously the MML route was way less busy then, St Pancras had 7 platforms, reducing to 6 at some point when nu.ber 1 was closed and lifted I'm not sure of, and then 5 for a large part of the mid 90s as number 6 was out of use for ages and not restored until the 170s started to arrive.

Oh, and as for a pendo, it would need to be a 9 car one to fit at St Pancras, 11 cars are 253m are too long.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

Very much a non starter really.

I don't think you could physically get a 9-car Pendolino and two 57s into a platform at St Pancras, speed would be very poor, and there isn't exactly a locomotive release facility, so the best that could happen is putting the 57 on at Nuneaton and off at Kettering. Then, there would be issues sourcing the 57s, and their speed, hauling the Pendolino.

Something would have to give with the current MML timetable to make it work.

Something already gives when Thameslink are diverted in to St Pancras...

The 6 trains per hour EMR service is reduced to just 3, and Thameslink have 4 per hour with just 8-9 minute turnround time at St Pancras.

 

[JonathanH]

Some smartarse will now pipe up with "only four platforms at STP" to which I respond that Project Rio involved terminating a Nottingham(?) service short to provide a path - not ideal for the Nottingham passengers who now have to change trains, but at least no one ended up on a bus. Spare units released by terminating a service short could allow the 222s to run as double sets.

Yes, run the Sheffield and Nottingham services combined, but of course doing so restricts each to 5-coaches, and needs time at Leicester to combine the trains. Then you need to work out what Avanti stock you could even bring into St Pancras, and how.