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Overcrowding during Easter

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Runningaround

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The railway does do this. GWR cancel Cardiff trains to provide stock for Cheltenham Festival and Glastonbury. In converse, they cancel other services, when there is Rugby at Cardiff. SWR cancel Windsor and Weybridge trains to provide stock for Ascot. Southern cancel trains to Reigate and Caterham to provide stock for the Epsom Derby.

It is a bit more difficult where there is a smaller fleet to shuffle, like on East Midlands.
Its difficult with small inflexible fleets because the toc's and others have made it that way.
They cancel and shorten Chester - Birmingham trains to send down to Cardiff for the Rugby, when Liverpool are playing Wolves and Aston Villa are at home.
It shouldn't be like this those services should remain and then extra stock used to cover large events, they won't be sat idle for months, they'll be needed almost every weekend somewhere in the region.
January to March Six Nations
March - April two big horse racing weeks, Easter.
May - June plenty of bank holidays, Students going home
June - September, Festivals, Carnivals, summer holidays.
The Football season.

I could go on but these events have been going on as long as the railways, at what point did anyone see rammed trains and think ''I guess we need less capacity''. Do those responsible understand the concept of a train? They are extendable, you can lengthen and shorten them at will, they're not buses or planes that are fixed, yet Airlines and bus companies are more flexible. Easter Weekend, schedule more flights, use larger aircraft. Bus companies, stick the largest buses onto routes where a festivals on, or just create a shuttle service with extra vehicles, sourced from routes that don't run on Bank Holidays. Why do British Railways find it so difficult?
 
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Ianigsy

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It’s at times like this that I’m reminded of somebody I worked with about 25 years ago.

Living in Halifax, he and his wife wanted to take their young child to the seaside one Easter, using the Blackpool-Scarborough train which ran at the time, but didn’t want the hassle of having to change trains with a pushchair and associated bits and pieces. Looking things up ahead of time, he could see that the Scarborough service was a bus for part of the way, so they decided to go to Blackpool.

Come the day, they get on the Blackpool train at Halifax only to be turfed off at Preston because of crew shortages, defeating the object of booking to Blackpool in the first place…..
 

Bevan Price

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Fewer people travel at Easter than any other time. They just all want to catch the same few trains.
Only because NR makes travel so difficult at Bank Holidays. It used to be one of the busiest times, with relief trains needed (and well filed) for popular tourist destinations.

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Well, clearly not as the MML capacity to Leicester and North has been reduced. And they're apparently removing the 180's.

The reality on the ground is that the IC services struggle with too many shorter sets.

I was reading two articles in Modern railways recently, one on the withdrawal of HST's on great Western, the other 180's on EMR and it was laughable how both were forced to repeat in their statements word for word Government propaganda about "running a more efficient service" and "reflecting the way people are now travelling". This half-wit Government clearly assumes that we are as dim as they are.
Yes. 5 coach Meridians are a stupid idea - fewer standard class seats than 3 Mark 3 coaches.
 
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The Planner

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Only because NR makes travel so difficult at Bank Holidays. It used to be one of the busiest times, with relief trains needed (and well filed) for popular tourist destinations.
Why is NR to blame here? TOCs and FOCs have a substantial say as to when works are dated.
 

6Gman

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Confusing cause and effect there. Of course fewer people travel by train then - because the railways make it so difficult that people have to resort to other modes. I had to drive a 300 mile round trip one Christmas Day so that a family member (a nurse) could get from a family gathering (the first Christmas she had had with us for several years) to take up her shift on Boxing Day. Another family member, who worked in the church and therefore was busy until late morning on Christmas Day, had to hire a car to get any time with us over Christmas.

If a decent and reliable service was provided over the bank holiday periods, people would use it.
I think the idea of Christmas Day or Boxing Day services is another matter entirely.

Extending the Christmas engineering blockades to the 27th/ 28th etc. does make a lot of sense because traffic on those dates is significantly lower than average.
 

43066

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Confusing cause and effect there. Of course fewer people travel by train then - because the railways make it so difficult that people have to resort to other modes. I had to drive a 300 mile round trip one Christmas Day so that a family member (a nurse) could get from a family gathering (the first Christmas she had had with us for several years) to take up her shift on Boxing Day. Another family member, who worked in the church and therefore was busy until late morning on Christmas Day, had to hire a car to get any time with us over Christmas.

So, in other words, you’re fine with railstaff being expected to work on Xmas day and Boxing Day, and missing out on time with their loved ones, just so long as you get to see your family members.
 

MKJai

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The problem certainly seems to be that there is no good time to shut the railway for engineering works, and that it is impossible to second guess when the height of demand is for the alternative routes. For all the pictures of overcrowding at St Pancras and Marylebone, it is likely that it had a specific peak to the passenger flow.
Then how can the industry respond to the trend of having less commuters but much more leisurers using railway?

There is much less "suitable" time to shut down the railway for engineering if more revenue comes from leisurers, but if the duration of engineering works squeezes too much, more manpower and equipment are needed resulting a drastic increase on the railway running cost.

Or are we just going to say to leisurers "Please don't use the railway for leisure trip because running railway for you is too expensive"?
 

boiledbeans2

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So, in other words, you’re fine with railstaff being expected to work on Xmas day and Boxing Day, and missing out on time with their loved ones, just so long as you get to see your family members.

Well, do you think the police, fire brigade, doctors, nurses, etc. should work on Xmas and Boxing Day? Or should they stay home and spend time with their loved ones?
 

SynthD

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Then how can the industry respond to the trend of having less commuters but much more leisurers using railway?
There are still more commuters than leisure users, so no response is needed.
 

43066

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Well, do you think the police, fire brigade, doctors, nurses, etc. should work on Xmas and Boxing Day? Or should they stay home and spend time with their loved ones?

I’m grateful some do (albeit only a skeleton staff). Notice I’m not the one complaining about others not being at work, just because it doesn’t suit my preferences.
 

duncanp

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I’m grateful some do (albeit only a skeleton staff). Notice I’m not the one complaining about others not being at work, just because it doesn’t suit my preferences.

One of the things we all have to realise is that we live in a society where we are dependent on others for many of our daily needs, and also for our leisure time.

I saw this with the recent bus strike in Birmingham, where 95% of the buses were off the road for six days in a row.

I appreciate that everyone likes to have Christmas Day and Boxing Day off, but in order to enjoy our time off, we rely on other people working.

For instance, the lack of public transport on Christmas Day means that some people, including me, are unable to be with our families, and others have to use their car. If the car was to break down on Christmas Day, would you be happy if the AA or RAC told you that they couldn't come out to see you until at least December 27th? And if the service stations were closed on Christmas Day, people could run out of petrol and be stranded.

Today, Easter Sunday, is another public holiday where everyone likes to be with their families. Yet there are at least some bus and train services running, which does mean that the staff operating those services won't be able to be with their families today. This entails a sacrifice on their part, and I hope it would be compensated for by a decent rate of pay, and the opportunity to have some time off later. Why then is Christmas treated differently from all other public holidays in the year?

My father was a policeman and as such had to work on Christmas Day sometimes. I don't remember feeling particularly deprived when this happened. We just had to work around his shift pattern and time our Christmas celebrations accordingly.

I don't think there should be a full Sunday service on Christmas Day, on either the trains or local buses. But I do think there is a case for having some services running, as evidenced by cities such as Edinburgh which have had a decent network of buses on Christmas Day for many years, and by the fact that National Express coaches run some long distance services on Christmas Day, presumably because it is worth their while to do so.
 

philosopher

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Or are we just going to say to leisurers "Please don't use the railway for leisure trip because running railway for you is too expensive"?
There do seem to be quite a few posts here that are essentially saying leisure passengers have to stuff it so that commuter and freight traffic does not suffer. However, it is leisure traffic that has recovered strongly since 2020, while commuter traffic is still considerably down, though I am not sure how freight has changed. So this does lend some credence about the argument of whether the old ways of doing engineering work are still appropriate.

So, in other words, you’re fine with railstaff being expected to work on Xmas day and Boxing Day, and missing out on time with their loved ones, just so long as you get to see your family members.
Many rail staff do not celebrate Christmas so will be benefitting from the extra income they are getting on Xmas and Boxing day without much downside to them personally.
 

66701GBRF

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Only because NR makes travel so difficult at Bank Holidays. It used to be one of the busiest times, with relief trains needed (and well filed) for popular tourist destinations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Yes. 5 coach Meridians are a stupid idea - fewer standard class seats than 3 Mark 3 coaches.

Excluding London and airports what UK tourist destination is so busy these days you need relief trains?
 

Bald Rick

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Been saying this for years. Public holidays are the busiest days of the year for UK rail.

I’m not sure the data backs that up, although someone like @Bald Rick is probably best placed to answer a question like that. Bank holidays can be very peaky.

Thanks for the tag @Horizon22.

Public holidays are not the busiest day of the year, albeit it can (and does) vary by route to route.

There has been a lot of work done on this over the years, including very recently with data from mobile phone networks, which helpfully also tells us how busy the roads are. The busiest days of the year are usually regular working days in October. For long distance travel it is Thursdays / Fridays before a holiday weekend (and not necessarily a bank holiday / public holiday weekend). Maundy Thursday was usually the busiest, and Easter Saturday the quietest (outside Christmas).



Look carefully at when people actually travel. One gets the feeling the railway is sitting waiting for the old demand patterns to re-emerge

As above, a lot of work going on studying this. What it is proving is that leisure patterns haven’t really changed, but it is giving us new insight into flows on certain routes. For example people who travel London - Scotland for leisure typically spend more time away than those travelling London - the North West (for example).

As I and @The Planner frequently state, NR doesn’t unilaterally decide when the works are, it does it in consultation with train (and freight) operators, and agreed with them. They will prefer times where the effect on their passengers / customers is the least disruptive.

In the past I have been personally responsible both for this possession / work planning activity, and also many, many of the projects causing the engineering work in the first place. I would always have preferred to avoid Easter and especially Christmas - we pay a premium for staff (and plant, and even some materials) at these times, and Christmas in particular brings extra risk of inclement weather and for some activities reduced daylight. But we do it then because it disrupts the fewest people.

Now of course doign any work like this will disrupt someone whenever you do it. And some of the people affected will write on a thread like this saying how it’s all wrong and should be done at a different time when it won’t affect them. But I can’t ever remember a thread that stated “there’s this engineering work going on and it hasn’t affected me at all, as I’m not travelling there and then…” Perhaps I should do that. I use the WCML 4 times a week, and yet I’m not affected at all by the work at Watford this weekend….

It was recently announced that on strike days the loss to affected TOCs was something like £25m per day but only £15m on the Saturday.

It wasn’t that much, but the proportions are about right.


Only because NR makes travel so difficult at Bank Holidays. It used to be one of the busiest times, with relief trains needed (and well filed) for popular tourist destinations.

But this isn’t the case. Because, actually, most lines of route are open, and we can see the usage data, which shows it isn’t busy, in general.

It’s the same on the roads, which is a good indicator of travel patterns of the population in general. For example the motorways were much quieter yesterday than a typical Saturday.

Well, do you think the police, fire brigade, doctors, nurses, etc. should work on Xmas and Boxing Day? Or should they stay home and spend time with their loved ones?

Having been a former employee of the health service, I can confirm that it runs at rather less than half normal activity levels over Christmas and Easter, and is very, very quiet on Christmas Day / Boxing Day / Easter Day themselves. No planned operations (including for a couple of days beforehand), no consultant appointments, and stuff like regular outpatient visits for (say) dialysis etc is reduced. Even A&E is quieter, principally because much of industry shuts down and there’s fewer workplace injuries. The only doctors working in hospitals will be those in A&E, the ‘duty’ doctors for the general rounds on the ward, and a skeleton staff in specialisms. Nurses on duty are reduced, as is the whole NHS ‘back office’ operation.
 
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norbitonflyer

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So, in other words, you’re fine with railstaff being expected to work on Xmas day and Boxing Day, and missing out on time with their loved ones, just so long as you get to see your family members.
As I mentioned, I have family members who are (or were before they retired) required to work at Christmas - nurses, firefighters, the power industry.

But maybe you would be happy to have your Christmas turkey raw, and no-one to look after you when you get salmonella as a consequence....... (and if you tried to cook it on a barbecue and it went out of control, your house would burn to the ground)

(Actually, one of the biggest causes of fires at Christmas is faulty Christmas tree lights: if there's no power, the fire brigade would be less busy..........)
 
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43066

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Many rail staff do not celebrate Christmas so will be benefitting from the extra income they are getting on Xmas and Boxing day without much downside to them personally.

I doubt the % of rail staff not celebrating Xmas is any higher than for the general population. Even those who don’t formally celebrate Christmas in the formal religious sense (how many of us really do, these days?) will use the public holidays to catch up with loved ones etc.

If it was done on a purely voluntary basis for a substantial uplift (perhaps three or four times the normal daily rate - as NR do I believe, albeit I’m not sure what % they offer) then you may have a point re income, but I have no faith that it would be. Many rail staff get no extra payment for working bank holidays.

As I mentioned, I have family members who are (or were before they retired) required to work at Christmas - nurses, firefighters, the power industry.

It’s notable that the vast majority of railway staff have Xmas day and boxing as their only guaranteed days off in the entire year. Even then most of us are required to use annual leave if those holidays fall on days we are rostered to work.

So it sticks in the craw somewhat when others who think nothing of having every bank holiday and every weekend off complain at the railway closing over Xmas.
 

baz962

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Overground have been running a boxing day service for a few years now. Substantial uplift too .
 

Ken H

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Thanks for the tag @Horizon22.

Public holidays are not the busiest day of the year, albeit it can (and does) vary by route to route.

There has been a lot of work done on this over the years, including very recently with data from mobile phone networks, which helpfully also tells us how busy the roads are. The busiest days of the year are usually regular working days in October. For long distance travel it is Thursdays / Fridays before a holiday weekend (and not necessarily a bank holiday / public holiday weekend). Maundy Thursday was usually the busiest, and Easter Saturday the quietest (outside Christmas).





As above, a lot of work going on studying this. What it is proving is that leisure patterns haven’t really changed, but it is giving us new insight into flows on certain routes. For example people who travel London - Scotland for leisure typically spend more time away than those travelling London - the North West (for example).

As I and @The Planner frequently state, NR doesn’t unilaterally decide when the works are, it does it in consultation with train (and freight) operators, and agreed with them. They will prefer times where the effect on their passengers / customers is the least disruptive.

In the past I have been personally responsible both for this possession / work planning activity, and also many, many of the projects causing the engineering work in the first place. I would always have preferred to avoid Easter and especially Christmas - we pay a premium for staff (and plant, and even some materials) at these times, and Christmas in particular brings extra risk of inclement weather and for some activities reduced daylight. But we do it then because it disrupts the fewest people.

Now of course doign any work like this will disrupt someone whenever you do it. And some of the people affected will write on a thread like this saying how it’s all wrong and should be done at a different time when it won’t affect them. But I can’t ever remember a thread that stated “there’s this engineering work going on and it hasn’t affected me at all, as I’m not travelling there and then…” Perhaps I should do that. I use the WCML 4 times a week, and yet I’m not affected at all by the work at Watford this weekend….



It wasn’t that much, but the proportions are about right.




But this isn’t the case. Because, actually, most lines of route are open, and we can see the usage data, which shows it isn’t busy, in general.

It’s the same on the roads, which is a good indicator of travel patterns of the population in general. For example the motorways were much quieter yesterday than a typical Saturday.



Having been a former employee of the health service, I can confirm that it runs at rather less than half normal activity levels over Christmas and Easter, and is very, very quiet on Christmas Day / Boxing Day / Easter Day themselves. No planned operations (including for a couple of days beforehand), no consultant appointments, and stuff like regular outpatient visits for (say) dialysis etc is reduced. Even A&E is quieter, principally because much of industry shuts down and there’s fewer workplace injuries. The only doctors working in hospitals will be those in A&E, the ‘duty’ doctors for the general rounds on the ward, and a skeleton staff in specialisms. Nurses on duty are reduced, as is the whole NHS ‘back office’ operation.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
One problem is determining supressed demand. Every bank holiday the press and TV do pieces on how terrible it will be on the roads and that the railway will be in meltdown because of engineering works. Such ill-unformed negativity must surely affect ridership.
There again TOC own goals with cancelled/short formed trains cant help
 

philosopher

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There has been a lot of work done on this over the years, including very recently with data from mobile phone networks, which helpfully also tells us how busy the roads are. The busiest days of the year are usually regular working days in October. For long distance travel it is Thursdays / Fridays before a holiday weekend (and not necessarily a bank holiday / public holiday weekend). Maundy Thursday was usually the busiest, and Easter Saturday the quietest (outside Christmas).





As above, a lot of work going on studying this. What it is proving is that leisure patterns haven’t really changed, but it is giving us new insight into flows on certain routes. For example people who travel London - Scotland for leisure typically spend more time away than those travelling London - the North West (for example).


In the past I have been personally responsible both for this possession / work planning activity, and also many, many of the projects causing the engineering work in the first place. I would always have preferred to avoid Easter and especially Christmas - we pay a premium for staff (and plant, and even some materials) at these times, and Christmas in particular brings extra risk of inclement weather and for some activities reduced daylight. But we do it then because it disrupts the fewest people.

Now of course doign any work like this will disrupt someone whenever you do it. And some of the people affected will write on a thread like this saying how it’s all wrong and should be done at a different time when it won’t affect them. But I can’t ever remember a thread that stated “there’s this engineering work going on and it hasn’t affected me at all, as I’m not travelling there and then…” Perhaps I should do that. I use the WCML 4 times a week, and yet I’m not affected at all by the work at Watford this weekend….

It’s the same on the roads, which is a good indicator of travel patterns of the population in general. For example the motorways were much quieter yesterday than a typical Saturday.
How does Good Friday compare with a typical Friday or a normal Saturday though? With the case of the WCML I can understanding closing the southern part on Easter Saturday and Sunday, but I still struggle to believe that Good Friday would be quieter than than typical Saturday, particularly for long distance travel. I am comparing Good Friday with a Saturday as they are the first days of the weekend.
 

Haywain

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How does Good Friday compare with a typical Friday or a normal Saturday though? With the case of the WCML I can understanding closing the southern part on Easter Saturday and Sunday, but I still struggle to believe that Good Friday would be quieter than than typical Saturday, particularly for long distance travel. I am comparing Good Friday with a Saturday as they are the first days of the weekend.
The normal Friday traffic tends to move, very heavily, to Maundy Thursday which is the busiest day of the year. Good Friday can be busy in the morning but quietens down a great deal after lunchtime, in my experience.
 

northwichcat

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It will be even worse today as the Hope Valley line is shut

I saw some people left behind on a Northern Hope Valley service,
The bank holiday and good weather brought out alot of walkers / visitors

The positive on Saturday was Northern were running a Manchester to Hope service, so that would likely have still encouraged the walkers to get out but probably put people off making non-essential travel to Sheffield.

It made for an amusing annoucement at Piccadilly yesterday. "Any passengers for Hope should make their way to platform 3 now as this service will soon be departing"

Certainly non-essential works should have avoided this specific Easter, given the pent up demand for traveling to see friends and family and domestic tourism.

I noticed the Stalybridge to Huddersfield was open yesterday. It had been closed previous weekends and will be closed subsequent weekends. That may have related to Hope to Sheffield being closed yesterday, allowing a slower Manchester to Sheffield service to run via Huddersfield. I'm not sure it was any quicker than a replacement bus but at least the ones that ran would have been a train.

Quite a number of walkers and 'ale enthusiasts' took advantage of the Stalybridge to Huddersfield being open.

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They cancel and shorten Chester - Birmingham trains to send down to Cardiff for the Rugby, when Liverpool are playing Wolves and Aston Villa are at home.

English services should not be under the control of Welsh politicans. I would actually say only the South Wales locals should actually be part of a devolved franchise. The North Wales services have not improved as the result of them moving from the North West franchise to the Wales franchise.
 

bramling

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Many rail staff do not celebrate Christmas so will be benefitting from the extra income they are getting on Xmas and Boxing day without much downside to them personally.

It’s something of a misnomer that there’s loads of people lining up to work Christmas. Just from my own observations, the first thing most people do when they look at their shifts for the year is to see what they will be doing at Christmas, and this equally applies to those who don’t officially celebrate it. This doesn’t just apply to Christmas Day and Boxing Day either, there’s plenty of people who expect to have the whole festive period off, and a good number of people who will achieve that come what may, even if it means going sick.

Even in my own case, as someone who absolutely despises Christmas (*) and is only too happy to work most of it, I object to the idea of working Christmas Day simply to ferry arrogant ungrateful types around.

(* and who despises it that little bit more with every year that passes, because of the way the whole festive period increasingly seems to bring out the worst in people).
 

GS250

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Well, do you think the police, fire brigade, doctors, nurses, etc. should work on Xmas and Boxing Day? Or should they stay home and spend time with their loved ones?
It's what rail staff sign up for? Isn't there a mantra 'theres no weekends or bank holidays on the railway'.

Well....the irony being that at those times there often is no railway at all due to engineering works.
 

bramling

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As I mentioned, I have family members who are (or were before they retired) required to work at Christmas - nurses, firefighters, the power industry.

But maybe you would be happy to have your Christmas turkey raw, and no-one to look after you when you get salmonella as a consequence....... (and if you tried to cook it on a barbecue and it went out of control, your house would burn to the ground)

(Actually, one of the biggest causes of fires at Christmas is faulty Christmas tree lights: if there's no power, the fire brigade would be less busy..........)

These services are the absolute bare essentials. No one has yet produced an argument for why transport should be considered the same, except for “I want to use it for my leisure requirements”.

There’s been a strange obsession with leisure ever since Covid. The country is doing really well as a result…
 
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GS250

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Only because NR makes travel so difficult at Bank Holidays. It used to be one of the busiest times, with relief trains needed (and well filed) for popular tourist destinations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Yes. 5 coach Meridians are a stupid idea - fewer standard class seats than 3 Mark 3 coaches.

Another 'non lessons learned' situation after the Operation Princess fiasco.
 

bramling

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It's what rail staff sign up for? Isn't there a mantra 'theres no weekends or bank holidays on the railway'.

There has always been the expectation of a reduced service on weekends and bank holidays. In most places you’ll find rosters are constructed on the basis of minimising weekend working (for example by making weekend duties long and intensive).
 

43066

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It's what rail staff sign up for?

Except that it categorically isn’t. Just as many rail staff have signed contracts with Sundays outside their working week (said contracts being offered by TOCs and BR before them, because it suited them).

Isn't there a mantra 'theres no weekends or bank holidays on the railway'.

All the more reason why Xmas day and Boxing Day off is precious to many.
 

Horizon22

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There has always been the expectation of a reduced service on weekends and bank holidays. In most places you’ll find rosters are constructed on the basis of minimising weekend working (for example by making weekend duties long and intensive).

Yes - lots of roles where the normal shift is 7-9 hours but weekend shifts are 12 hours. Overall you get the same coverage, but staff have to work fewer weekends.
 

Robertj21a

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In the old days, railways used to keep spare stock precisely to handle peak demand.

Should people have to spend large amounts of money to stand because this mean, tight-fisted, penny-pinching, skinflint Government is dictating to the railway industry that they have to cut costs?
Railways should be run professionally and cost effectively. There should be very little unnecessary slack or surplus stock.
GIven the small proportion of travellers in the UK that use the train network there's little reason for the taxpayers to be contributing more than is absolutely essential.
 
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