Ore - Ashford Electrification

[Bald Rick]

One way to finance the link would be developer funding in return for the developer being allowed to build a garden city at Three Oaks/Doleham......

You owe me some of my tea, which was just spat out and landed on my iPad!

 

[21C101]

You owe me some of my tea, which was just spat out and landed on my iPad!

lol

 

[fergusjbend]

Hastings has a population of 87,000. Blackburn has 105,000, Harrogate 71,000. The rail connections to Hastings are poor compared to the rest of south east England, but still much, much better than a lot of comparable towns in the north. The cost of re-modelling Ashford International, electrifying the Marsh Line (including installing additional loops and closing the numerous user-operated crossings), and adding another four or five 6-car 3 class 395 to the fleet, would be completely disproportionate to the advantages to be gained by shortening the journey time from Hastings to London by 20 minutes or so. If there is spare capital to be invested (which there isn't), then it should go to the north of England where it is needed, and not to a marginal constituency in Sussex.

Fergus

 

[JamesRowden]

Hastings has a population of 87,000. Blackburn has 105,000, Harrogate 71,000. The rail connections to Hastings are poor compared to the rest of south east England, but still much, much better than a lot of comparable towns in the north. The cost of re-modelling Ashford International, electrifying the Marsh Line (including installing additional loops and closing the numerous user-operated crossings), and adding another four or five 6-car 3 class 395 to the fleet, would be completely disproportionate to the advantages to be gained by shortening the journey time from Hastings to London by 20 minutes or so. If there is spare capital to be invested (which there isn't), then it should go to the north of England where it is needed, and not to a marginal constituency in Sussex.

Fergus

Blackburn and Harrogate have motorways. East Sussex doesn't. Blackburn and Harrogate should also benefit from HS2. The only direct benefits of HS2 to someone in Hastings is that it should make a train journey to the north of England and Scotland significantly faster.

Also, did you know that deprivation in Hastings is greater than in those two locations in the north that you have mentioned?

 

[fergusjbend]

Also, did you know that deprivation in Hastings is greater than in those two locations in the north that you have mentioned?

Yes, I did. It is largely attributable to the prevalence of low-cost accommodation formerly in use for the now extinct holiday trade , and which is a magnet for the disadvantaged from far and wide. It is hard to see how providing a quicker link to London will benefit such an essentially sedentary population. Hastings is not Brighton. Nor have Margate and Ramsgate been rejuvenated by their new link to St Pancras, although it is early days yet. There is more to this regeneration business than speeding up rail-links. Investment in local employment would be a good start.

Fergus

 

[ScotGG]

Hastings has a population of 87,000. Blackburn has 105,000, Harrogate 71,000. The rail connections to Hastings are poor compared to the rest of south east England, but still much, much better than a lot of comparable towns in the north. The cost of re-modelling Ashford International, electrifying the Marsh Line (including installing additional loops and closing the numerous user-operated crossings), and adding another four or five 6-car 3 class 395 to the fleet, would be completely disproportionate to the advantages to be gained by shortening the journey time from Hastings to London by 20 minutes or so. If there is spare capital to be invested (which there isn't), then it should go to the north of England where it is needed, and not to a marginal constituency in Sussex.

Fergus

Ahh the either/or argument. That small pot for funding nationwide can never be enlarged so more areas get what is needed, rather than only a few?

It can, but it takes electoral pressure on politicians to ensure it does happen. 'No spare capital to be invested'? That's a choice of the UK the past 30 years, but it doesn't have to be the default. The north and south arguing back and forth is a nice distraction from the overall inadequate spending on infrastructure, which the Treasury loves, as attention is not focusing on them and the lack of infrastructure spending nationwide.

Margate hasn't been rejuvenated as HS1 rail fares are way too expensive. If they offer cheap £10 off-peak advances all year round many more would visit from London. As it is, it's 4 times the cost of going to Sussex resorts. That is causing harm to Kent resorts, along with slow (and still expensive) 'classic' routes. Same with Hastings.

 

[RobShipway]

Also, did you know that deprivation in Hastings is greater than in those two locations in the north that you have mentioned?

Yes, I did. It is largely attributable to the prevalence of low-cost accommodation formerly in use for the now extinct holiday trade , and which is a magnet for the disadvantaged from far and wide. It is hard to see how providing a quicker link to London will benefit such an essentially sedentary population. Hastings is not Brighton. Nor have Margate and Ramsgate been rejuvenated by their new link to St Pancras, although it is early days yet. There is more to this regeneration business than speeding up rail-links. Investment in local employment would be a good start.

Fergus

I agree with your comments to a point, where I believe certainly Harrogate has has Class 91 plus Mk4 coaches going to it from Kings Cross since the 1990's. Hastings has only ever had commuter stock going to it. yes, in the last 10 - 12 years that commuter stock has got better in the shape of class 375/377 and Class 171's, but at the end of the day it is just commuter stock.

I also believe that Blackburn correct me if I am wrong, has class 221 services to it from Euston?

 

[yorksrob]

yes, in the last 10 - 12 years that commuter stock has got better in the shape of class 375/377 and Class 171's

That's a matter of opinion!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What are the (possibly remote) options for redoubling Tonbridge - Hastings with the associated tunnel works - as this is the more direct route from London?

And what is wrong with Hastings....!? It has had money spent on it and is more "up and coming" - far better than it used to be, and there's a lot going for the town. It's a damn sight better than Margate...

And let's not forget the residents of Rye... do they not get a look-in?

 

[steamybrian]

What are the (possibly remote) options for redoubling Tonbridge - Hastings with the associated tunnel works - as this is the more direct route from London?

....

The single line tunnels are Somerhill, Strawberry Hill, Wadhurst and Mountfield
How would you suggest doing it and much is the cost?
Build a new tunnel adjacent to the existing tunnels to create two single bore tunnels? This will upset the "NIMBYS" and the "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" types.
Close the line for months (possibly years?) whilst the existing bores are widened.? See previous sentence.
Even then the clearances through the other tunnels are "extremely" tight such as through Wells Tunnel and the concrete slabbed Grove Tunnel either side of Tunbridge Wells so these may need modification as well.
Total bill.£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££s.

 

[bramling]

The single line tunnels are Somerhill, Strawberry Hill, Wadhurst and Mountfield
How would you suggest doing it and much is the cost?
Build a new tunnel adjacent to the existing tunnels to create two single bore tunnels? This will upset the "NIMBYS" and the "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" types.
Close the line for months (possibly years?) whilst the existing bores are widened.? See previous sentence.
Even then the clearances through the other tunnels are "extremely" tight such as through Wells Tunnel and the concrete slabbed Grove Tunnel either side of Tunbridge Wells so these may need modification as well.
Total bill.£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££s.

I'm not sure the single line sections contribute that much to the long journey time, as (apart from Strawberry Hill Tunnel) they are all pretty short. The biggest reason for the journey time is simply the amount of stops south of Tonbridge, especially on the all-stations trains.

 

[MarkyT]

The single line tunnels are Somerhill, Strawberry Hill, Wadhurst and Mountfield . . . Even then the clearances through the other tunnels are "extremely" tight such as through Wells Tunnel and the concrete slabbed Grove Tunnel either side of Tunbridge Wells so these may need modification as well.

Whilst representing a small constraint in planning and increasing the risk of real time disruption in one direction affecting services in the other, the single line sections through the tunnels are not a significant drain on capacity, as the line remains largely double track with the single track turnouts placed as close as possible to the tunnel mouths (except at Tunbridge Wells station where the Strawberry Hill tunnel single section starts effectively at the south end of the platforms, although an up train clears the section when passing Grove Junction). The remaining double track tunnels either side of Tunbridge Wells station were possible because of the low speed of trains in the area, and without them the station simply couldn't work as the distance between the portals at either end leaves no space for junctions. Even 11 car trains are a squeeze and 12 car proposals have involved moving signals inside the tunnels and using SDO. Low speed through the station is not considered a problem as it is assumed all passenger trains would wish to stop at Tunbridge Wells, the largest town and busiest station on the route. The smaller clearances in the remaining double track tunnels are considered acceptable at very low speed because the 'dynamic envelope' of the moving train is smaller, that is the limits of sway side to side. The double to single connections, typically at 55 or 60MPH, may represent a speed constraint in some places, especially if a new non-stop service tier was proposed, but some might be upgraded a little, assuming other geometry constraints allowed it, noting that the line is rather twisty anyway throughout and although it contains some short sections of 90MPH running is mostly restricted to rather less than this.

 

[Chris125]

What are the (possibly remote) options for redoubling Tonbridge - Hastings with the associated tunnel works - as this is the more direct route from London?

It might be more direct on a map but it is significantly slower in reality - even if doubling the tunnels was a remotely viable option it would have little if any impact on journey times. Electrifying Marshlink and extending a HS1 service to Hastings and Bexhill would have far wider benefits and hopefully a viable business case.

 

[DJ_K666]

Yes, stations without platform ramps seem wrong to me too.

Great minds think alike. Or is it dirty minds?