Ore - Ashford Electrification

[21C101]

I think the whole Javelin concept is rather pie in the sky. Electrification needs to be considered on the basis of the existing Ashford to Brighton service, not a through High Speed service which would rely on significant rebuilding at the Ashford end.

You are joking?

A Javelin service would do Hastings to St Pancras in a little over an hour. Currently it takes only 15 minutes less than two hours to Charing Cross.

Its an absolute game changer for Hastings (and Rye which would be little more than 45 minutes from St Pancras)

As others allude to; the electrification is simple enough. Since others point out Javelins can changeover on the move, the logical thing to me now seems to be third rail to Doleham with a.c. to Three Oaks with changeover on the move between those stations in the middle of the tokenless block where signalling equipment to be interfered with is conspicuous by its absence.

The awkward bit is Ashford Station, as can be seen HERE

You need a crossover across four tracks enabling you to get from Platform 1 to the down slow by the letter "C" so that trains can access HS1.

 

[Bald Rick]

The awkward bit is Ashford Station, as can be seen HERE

'Awkward' is something of an understatement.

 

[HSTEd]

It would probably be worth it though.
It does provide rather more potential traffic for HS1 - which is hardly the most heavily used route.

 

[MarkyT]

It would probably be worth it though.
It does provide rather more potential traffic for HS1 - which is hardly the most heavily used route.

It would be very difficult if not impossible to add the new connections required on the flat whilst retaining all the existing junction functionality. However, many of the turnouts there today are a legacy of the original Eurostar routing between the Tonbridge line and the international and domestic platforms on the north side of the station. It might be possible now to remove most of these left hand crossovers at the next major junction renewal to make room for a right-hand double ladder across the layout. That would be a major redesign with perhaps up to 12 new turnouts, but it may end up no more complex in numbers of S&C units than the current layout, so could cost a similar amount in materials as renewal like for like, and with an enhancement top up to cover the redesign the scheme might just fly. A Significant signalling reconfiguration would also be required clearly along with all the knitting work. Definitely not cheap but if timed right . . .

 

[TheJRB]

You are joking?

A Javelin service would do Hastings to St Pancras in a little over an hour. Currently it takes only 15 minutes less than two hours to Charing Cross.

Its an absolute game changer for Hastings (and Rye which would be little more than 45 minutes from St Pancras)

As others allude to; the electrification is simple enough. Since others point out Javelins can changeover on the move, the logical thing to me now seems to be third rail to Doleham with a.c. to Three Oaks with changeover on the move between those stations in the middle of the tokenless block where signalling equipment to be interfered with is conspicuous by its absence.

The awkward bit is Ashford Station, as can be seen HERE

You need a crossover across four tracks enabling you to get from Platform 1 to the down slow by the letter "C" so that trains can access HS1.

Most certainly not joking. I appreciate the improvements such a scheme would bring to Hastings, a town which I'm certainly aware is in need of investment. Thus, politics is always close to hand and such a scheme, which admittedly seems to be a sensible solution on the face of it, is pulled out to score points by an MP whose seat is far from safe in the forthcoming election.

Call me a cynic but once the full study has been completed (no doubt after the election), I highly doubt the cost of such a reconstruction at the Ashford end would meet the cost to benefit ratio required.

The map almost doesn't do the scale of the problem justice. I don't know how familiar you are with Ashford, but I can tell you that it's not all that far from the west end of platforms 1, 2, 3 and 4 to the 'C' junction where the connecting lines to HS1 diverge. Indeed the trusty Quail map shows it to be all of 72 chains!

I am firmly of the belief that an improved service between Hastings and Ashford along with some well timed connections, could bring most of the benefits of the proposed through service but with a much lower cost.

I think everybody's been hypnotised by the shiny blue train!

 

[Yabbadabba]

Looking at Google (as seen here) Dropped Pin
near 2 Elwick Rd, Kingsnorth, Ashford, Kent TN23
http://goo.gl/maps/XixNR I can't see how you can fit a junction in to get from the High Speed connection to platforms 1&2 without sacrificing the junctions that allow you to come off the Tonbridge route into platforms 5&6. This is going to be one expensive fix to get high speed to Hastings and Bexhill.

 

[yorksrob]

Most certainly not joking. I appreciate the improvements such a scheme would bring to Hastings, a town which I'm certainly aware is in need of investment. Thus, politics is always close to hand and such a scheme, which admittedly seems to be a sensible solution on the face of it, is pulled out to score points by an MP whose seat is far from safe in the forthcoming election.

Call me a cynic but once the full study has been completed (no doubt after the election), I highly doubt the cost of such a reconstruction at the Ashford end would meet the cost to benefit ratio required.

The map almost doesn't do the scale of the problem justice. I don't know how familiar you are with Ashford, but I can tell you that it's not all that far from the west end of platforms 1, 2, 3 and 4 to the 'C' junction where the connecting lines to HS1 diverge. Indeed the trusty Quail map shows it to be all of 72 chains!

I am firmly of the belief that an improved service between Hastings and Ashford along with some well timed connections, could bring most of the benefits of the proposed through service but with a much lower cost.

I think everybody's been hypnotised by the shiny blue train!

I doubt that any Hastings passengers would travel to London via Ashford and the classic lines. They'd just go via Tunbridge Wells Central instead.

 

[Class 170101]

Looking at the map might it be easier to make the Up Maidstone reversible and link it to the Up West Chord CTRL for Up Trains and in the Down a link from the Down West Chord to the Up Maidstone to reach platforms 1 and 2 at Ashford?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The down side of third rail is that it would need several substations. The down side of Overhead is that it would be very expensive to immunise all the signalling in the Hastings area. To my mind the logical thing to do would be to electrify Ashford to Three Oaks with 25kV a.c. and change over to 3rd Rail there with 3rd Rail extended from Ore to Three Oaks through Ore Tunnel.

That solves the following problems:

• Immunisation of Hastings area signalling. Change over is at Three Oaks in the middle of Tokenless Block section.
  
• Lack of Clearance in Ore tunnel.
  
• No need for any third rail substations
  
• By the 25kV ending at Three Oaks the 25kV is only 22.75 miles long (rather than 26.6 to Hastings) which means it may well be possible to feed it from Ashford with no feeder station needed at Hastings or intermediately. (I believe the 16 mile branch Southminster Branch is similarly fed from one end).

Would still need to immunise Rye. Ashford should already be immunised, but you would still need a crossover across all four "original domestic" tracks at the East End of Ashford Station.

Southminster is indeed fed from one end with the nearest feeder station at Rayleigh some four miles away from Wickford (20 miles from Rayleigh to Southminster therefore). However it should be noted that there are limits on the power draw of 12 carriage trains along this branch when both trains on the branch are of 12 carriage length.

 

[AM9]

Looking at the map might it be easier to make the Up Maidstone reversible and link it to the Up West Chord CTRL for Up Trains and in the Down a link from the Down West Chord to the Up Maidstone to reach platforms 1 and 2 at Ashford?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Southminster is indeed fed from one end with the nearest feeder station at Rayleigh some four miles away from Wickford (20 miles from Rayleigh to Southminster therefore). However it should be noted that there are limits on the power draw of 12 carriage trains along this branch when both trains on the branch are of 12 carriage length.

Would it not be possible to end-feed the line with an auto ransformer scheme?

 

[21C101]

I think the only way you could do it, without wholesale relayouting is as follows:

With reference to the map HERE

1) Abolish the down fast to down slow line crossover at "C". Its now a "nice to have" because there is another one a few chains further west. Post CTRL I don't see it as essential at all to have a route set from the Tonbridge Line to Platform 3 at the same time as from the Maidstone line to Platforms 4,5 or 6.

2) There is already track and crossovers allowing access between Platform 3 (Down slow) and HS1 in both directions. I'm pretty sure there is signalling too.

3) I think getting trains from Platform 1 to HS1 is asking too much.

4) Abolish the first crossover at the west end of platform 2 from Up Slow to Up Fast. Again, post CTRL it is a nice to have with another one a few chains west.

5) At London End of platform 2. Install new 20mph crossover from Down Slow to Up Slow. This would allow reversible access between HS1 and Hastings. A single reversible lead is certainly fine for an hourly service and probably fine for a half hourly service. Some Up trains to Tonbridge may have to switch from platform 2 to platform 1 but track and signalling already there for that and with a Javelin service it won't be occupied by a terminated class 171 anymore.

6) Such a crossover as mentioned in (5) would need to cross both fast lines. Three options here:

* Put in diamond crossing with switched blades

* Abolish the fast lines - are they needed still?

* Abolish the down fast and keep the up fast, with an extra reversible platform where the down fast was. If this was done, you could put a down slow to up fast in to replace the crossover at "C" and Hastings Trains could call at the new platform on the up fast (which would start approx 2 cars nearer London than the existing platform 1/2 (yes there is room)) . At the country end, the platform would end 2 cars before platforms 1/2 and you install a crossover from the up fast to the up slow. Track already exists at the country end which would allow up or down trains to Folkestone also to use this new platform.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What about if the "electrified rail" was used for AC electrification in the Ore tunnel, could there still be double track?

Something that low and that close to the running rail has to be low voltage. The low voltage system in use is DC.

 

[RobShipway]

Wow...... I did not realise that this subject would have so much discussion.

 

[Kentish Paul]

As I have posted before on another thread. (sorry cannot find it). An easier option would be to provide a link from HS1 to the Maidstone East line where they run alongside each other at Hothfield.
This would allow 395's to change from AC to DC and access all platforms at Ashford without any work at Ashford.
Of course it then remains which way do you electrify the Marshlink.
This will not be easy as HS1 is on a right hand curve at Hothfield and points and crossovers on a highspeed curve do not mix.

 

[MarkyT]

An easier option would be to provide a link from HS1 to the Maidstone East line where they run alongside each other at Hothfield.

I considered that too, but concluded it's perhaps not a good idea to introduce another high speed junction on HS1 itself.

I've illustrated a possible reconfiguration of the west end junctions here:

http://www.townend.me/files/ashford.pdf

This removes most of the legacy left hand crossovers provided to allow Eurostars and domectic trains from the Tonbridge line to access platforms 3, 4, 5 & 6, making space for a new right-hand double ladder across the layout between HS1 and platfroms 1 & 2. In addition to HS1 Hastings trains, platfroms 1 & 2 would thus have to handle all passenger trains to and from from the Tonbridge line, whilst platforms 5 & 6 would become dedicated to HS1 and Maidstone line trains. A new parallel move across Ashford 'B' Junction is also provided for simultaneous up and down freight movements as well. All existing functionality at the east end of the station would be retained.

The final layout is actually slightly simpler overall than existing today. A total of 15 new turnouts are provided, whilst 20 are removed in addition to a diamond crossing making a total saving of 5 turnouts and the crossing.

 

[edwin_m]

Something that low and that close to the running rail has to be low voltage. The low voltage system in use is DC.

I think this was intended to refer to overhead live rail, not third rail.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Thanks for that MarkyT.
It fits in with my thoughts. What you suggest is entirely feasable. As a resident of Ashford and long time Land Surveyor what you suggest will fit although the crossovers will be slow.
If only we could make more use of platforms 3&4.

 

[TheJRB]

I doubt that any Hastings passengers would travel to London via Ashford and the classic lines. They'd just go via Tunbridge Wells Central instead.

I was not suggesting a better connection with the Headcorn line but rather better connections with HS1. Currently the Marshlink arrives xx:18 with a a St Pancras train having just left at xx:16 meaning the next one is xx:43, a total connection of 25 minutes leaving plenty of room for improvement.

 

[Hophead]

One consideration to throw into the benefit/cost analysis is whether anyone in Hastings could even afford to use this new service.

For tomorrow morning, a single from Hastings to Charing Cross is £32.

A single from Ashford to St. Pancras is £35.30. Add on, say, £10 for the longer routing from Hastings (plus a possible tube fare as well) and the faster journey time my not seem so attractive.

 

[RobShipway]

One consideration to throw into the benefit/cost analysis is whether anyone in Hastings could even afford to use this new service.

For tomorrow morning, a single from Hastings to Charing Cross is £32.

A single from Ashford to St. Pancras is £35.30. Add on, say, £10 for the longer routing from Hastings (plus a possible tube fare as well) and the faster journey time my not seem so attractive.

It depends where the people of Hastings are going to in London, i.e.e where they work etc..... If they work nearer to St Pancras than Charing Cross, then route might be better for them to take, even if they have a longer travelling time compared to the time getting to Charing.

If you had the time getting from Charing Cross to St Pancras, then you are probably looking at no different timings I would suspect depending on how many stops where made from Ashford to St Pancras.

 

[JamesRowden]

One consideration to throw into the benefit/cost analysis is whether anyone in Hastings could even afford to use this new service.

For tomorrow morning, a single from Hastings to Charing Cross is £32.

A single from Ashford to St. Pancras is £35.30. Add on, say, £10 for the longer routing from Hastings (plus a possible tube fare as well) and the faster journey time my not seem so attractive.

The Hastings-London plus HS1 anytime single ticket already exists at £38.50.

 

[Hophead]

The Hastings-London plus HS1 anytime single ticket already exists at £38.50.

Cheaper than expected, then (for now, anyway).

 

[HSTEd]

If only we could make more use of platforms 3&4.

Is there any point in having two platforms now? So few Eurostar trains call that it seems unlikely that occupation would be an issue.

 

[MarkyT]

Is there any point in having two platforms now? So few Eurostar trains call that it seems unlikely that occupation would be an issue.

Its a useful bolthole for a couple of trains if things go wrong in the tunnel or between Ashford and London and if necessary you can disembark a train full there with the security and customs and immigration set up. Whilst I'm sure Eurostar don't like paying for it all, equally I don't think they'd give any of it up without a fight. I also wonder whether they might consider reintroducing more stops there again seeing as Ebbsfleet has been such a damp squib.

 

[leytongabriel]

It depends where the people of Hastings are going to in London, i.e.e where they work etc..... If they work nearer to St Pancras than Charing Cross, then route might be better for them to take, even if they have a longer travelling time compared to the time getting to Charing.

If you had the time getting from Charing Cross to St Pancras, then you are probably looking at no different timings I would suspect depending on how many stops where made from Ashford to St Pancras.

One reason cited for the less than spectacular take-off in numbers for HS1 was that the old line served both the employment hubs of the City and West End. While the new development behind the station is obviously creating demand, the King's Cross area is simply not in the same bracket. As for leisure /shopping trips. LOL.

And to tie in with another thread about long walks in tube stations, how much of the high speed time advantage is lost traipsing over to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines from St Pancras?

Good point about affordablity - isn't Hastings one of the few areas in the south that qualifies for EU regional grant aid?

 

[JamesRowden]

One reason cited for the less than spectacular take-off in numbers for HS1 was that the old line served both the employment hubs of the City and West End. While the new development behind the station is obviously creating demand, the King's Cross area is simply not in the same bracket. As for leisure /shopping trips. LOL.

And to tie in with another thread about long walks in tube stations, how much of the high speed time advantage is lost traipsing over to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines from St Pancras?

Good point about affordablity - isn't Hastings one of the few areas in the south that qualifies for EU regional grant aid?

House prices in Hastings are far cheaper because Hastings does not have enough industry and has poor transport links. Although it is subsequently a cheap place to commute to London from (excluding the effective cost of spending time commuting) the journey time of 1hr40m to London Bridge during the peak makes it unattractive to commute to London from. Commuting via Ashford is already an option but the need to change and the 1tph Ashford-Hastings service level makes this unattractive.

If there was a service that could get to Stratford in 63mins and St Pancras in 68mins, commuting from Hastings to jobs located in these areas of London would be far more attractive. Better transport links might also attract more industry to Hastings. It would therefore help solve the London and South East housing problem and it would give the people of Hastings more jobs.

The question is whether the 2tph ~35mins diesel service (which will be possible between Hastings and Ashford once the line has been upgraded to 70/80mph in a few years time) is sufficient to unlock this potential or if through services to London via HS1 are required.

 

[yorksrob]

I was not suggesting a better connection with the Headcorn line but rather better connections with HS1. Currently the Marshlink arrives xx:18 with a a St Pancras train having just left at xx:16 meaning the next one is xx:43, a total connection of 25 minutes leaving plenty of room for improvement.

Yes, that could possibly be improved. I think the change of trains might put a lot of people off though.

 

[Bald Rick]

So the cynic in me asks:

Why would the MP for Hastings be so keen to get a couple of hundred million pounds of taxpayers cash that will raise house prices in Hastings?

 

[JamesRowden]

So the cynic in me asks:

Why would the MP for Hastings be so keen to get a couple of hundred million pounds of taxpayers cash that will raise house prices in Hastings?

This is undoubtedly the MP's motive. But thankfully it's not all up to her.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, there's a whole debate to be had as to whether continually rising houseprices are a good thing or not.

Nevertheless, a desire to finally invest in the Marshlink is undoubtedly a good thing !

 

[21C101]

One way to finance the link would be developer funding in return for the developer being allowed to build a garden city at Three Oaks/Doleham......