NXEC plans to barrier stations

[Ben]

Suggest you do check the facts before passing comments like that. I do know what I am talking about and have read all the information. Do not tell me I do not no what I am talking about. Suggest you try your methods if you think they are correct and see what happens.....

I think thats a good idea, seems as yorkie is right there will be no problems.

 

[jacknottm]

and it would be dangerous at Grantham because of lack of space, when a train rushes by on the other track at 125mph when there's a massive rabble, bit like at Lincoln - they are pointless and a waste of passenger's money there. However, I am not wholly against them as they do help prevent ticketless travel. I can see their benifit at Nottingham but only if they put them at Station Street and Queens Road entrances too (which admitably would be hard)

That bridge is a public right of way between the two roads, even revenue protection have to let you past to get to the other side.

Jack

 

[jv3531]

Sorry for abruptness but am just explaining the fact that compulsary means what it says - "Must" I believe, therefor if you are in a compulsary ticket area you are deemed to be travelling and therefore "must" be in poseession of a ticket or permit. If you are not intending to travel then you should not be in the compulsary ticket area. Railway conditions of carrieage I believe?

 

[yorkie]

I'll post the link again to clarify:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

jacknottm - in that case, then it cannot become a CTA. In fact, Grantham can't become a CTA anyway as NXEC do not operate a PF scheme. That doesn't mean they can't barrier the station but if anyone wants to get through a public right of way then they have to let them pass. Obviously, that does beg the question "Why have a barrier then?" but that's the railway's problem, not ours.

 

[theblackwatch]

Over the past few days (as a result of the high numbers of people coming to York to not visit the races :roll, York station has been barriered. Yesterday evening, I had to get onto the platform without a ticket, as I was travelling on a train which you can't buy tickets for at the station ticket office. I just approached the staff, told them I was going for the Scarboro Spa Express, and got the response "ok" and just walked through. No problem or hassle whatsoever.

 

[yorkie]

Over the past few days (as a result of the high numbers of people coming to York to not visit the races :roll, York station has been barriered. Yesterday evening, I had to get onto the platform without a ticket, as I was travelling on a train which you can't buy tickets for at the station ticket office. I just approached the staff, told them I was going for the Scarboro Spa Express, and got the response "ok" and just walked through. No problem or hassle whatsoever.

Which is exactly how it should be!

Wonder what "upyourjunction" will have to say about that!

 

[Mojo]

If you are in a Compulsory Ticket Area then you must have a valid ticket (including platform ticket) or other authorisation. There is no doubt about that and that is something you are correct about - not that anyone disputed it. Birmingham New Street may very well be a Compulsory Ticket Area in which case the above would apply.

But lots of other stations in the ex-West Midlands County are NOT Compulsory Ticket Areas.

 

[yorkie]

..Birmingham New Street may very well be a Compulsory Ticket Area in which case the above would apply....

But neither of us think it is. And DfT guidelines say it shouldn't be.

 

[Mojo]

But neither of us think it is. And DfT guidelines say it shouldn't be.

DfT says "should normally," rather than "must not," so it may well be designated as such, but I do not know. Also my document which is over a year old says it is not, but London Midland's website says it is, which I am not too sure of, so I have made some enquiries to see if it is actually designated as a CTA (subject to the interpretation in section 2 subsection 1 of the The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994) or whether the person who made that leaflet presumed it meant something else.

 

[Max]

Over the past few days (as a result of the high numbers of people coming to York to not visit the races :roll, York station has been barriered. Yesterday evening, I had to get onto the platform without a ticket, as I was travelling on a train which you can't buy tickets for at the station ticket office. I just approached the staff, told them I was going for the Scarboro Spa Express, and got the response "ok" and just walked through. No problem or hassle whatsoever.

The barrier staff varied greatly at York on Tuesday when my friend and I travelled there. On the outward journey, our tickets were carefully checked by CrossCountry staff, with the outward portion being taken off us. However, on the return, we entered the station via the NRM entrance, where there was a memeber of NXEC staff. He simply asked if we were travelling. I said yes, and he let us pass without even checking our tickets!

 

[jv3531]

Sorry if this has caused offence to anyone but all of the relavant information (of which I have the current penalty fares leaflet to back me up and if you check the LM website under Penalty fares, the map will back me up to prove this) quite clearly states that it is. You will notice on this map that moor street and snow hill also come under the CTA area rules although is strange because at least snow hill is an open station. As regards new street, from the area from barriers to the platforms is governed by a CTA. Although the station is not owned by LM, it is operated by LM staff. I was at this station last week and there are enough signs on display stating this fact..... As has also been previously stated, RPI do make regular checks at this station and will approach customers on the platform areas to check whether you do have a valid ticket/pass. None of this is fiction, as I know several people that it has happened to - at the time they were in posession of a ticket so nothing was done but there were others that were asked to leave or purchase tickets.

 

[dan_atki]

The LM PF leaflet has a map showing the PF areas and marks stations which have CTAs. New Street, Moor Street, and Snow Hill are all shown to have CTAs:

http://londonmidland.go-cms.co.uk/app/webroot/files/cache/penalty fares booklet.pdf

That does go against DfT guidelines (seeing as there are operators without PFs there) and LM need to be contacted to confirm that it is the case.

 

[jv3531]

Not sure how this will play out - I Know that as was said earlier that New Street is not TOC owned, LM just manage the station so am not sure who the rueling falls down to, where as I believe Snow Hill and moor street are owned (am sure I will be corrected if i'm wrong). Snow Hill at least is interesting though because when ever I travel through there it is always open so I would asume RPIs would have to check everybodys ticket on the platforms before "closing" the entrances otherwise would be difficult to prove? Although again, technically as you are classed as within the CTA the argument would be that you should not be on the platform without a ticket?Not sure if they are manned during peak hours though.

 

[adambro]

Network Rail own all stations (possibly a few exceptions) and manage all of the largest ones including New Street, is this incorrect?

 

[dan_atki]

Network Rail owns all infrastructure including stations.

Under franchise agreements stations are managed (not owned) by TOCs and some of the larger ones are also managed by Network Rail.

Still, it is easy to fall into the trap of using 'owned' and 'managed' interchangably without intending to.

 

[will1337]

I also passed through the barriers at York on what would have been the first day of the races, no problems but a member of staff told me that there would be physical ticket barriers up by around Octoberish. No idea what they'd do around the NRM entrance as it's rather narrow.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Rumour:
NXEC RP staff will shortly be moved off trains to dedicated station duties and leave the checking of tix on trains to just the guard. Clearly on busy services with complex tickets, lots of luggage, catering trolleys and regular stops, this is likely to be less than thorough. Inadequate, in fact.

So I assume that with more station checks by staff (and not just by the machines) then the total amount of ticket checking (and any necessary discussions with passengers) will be unchanged.
I also guess that the point of all this is to move most of those "difficult" conversations about invalid tickets, lost tickets etc off the trains and onto the platforms.

In my view, that's the proper place for these debates anyway, and ideally before travel rather than afterwards.

 

[yorkie]

In my view, that's the proper place for these debates anyway, and ideally before travel rather than afterwards.

in theoryyes BUT that only really works if you barrier an individual platform. which is usually possible at KGX but I don't see how it can be done at YRK.

sounds like using a GC only ticket is going to be easy on NXEC then if they just check at barriers! and anyone can say "I am getting GC" when one is due anyway.

oh, and I think they will need a huge number of staff to check all entrances at all these stations and instead of checking nxec tickets they are going to be dealing with loads of other customers.

didn't the gates at coventry get removed because virgin realised they were protecting londom midland's revenue rather than their own? if anyone knows the full story about coventry it would be interesting to hear.

 

[BOSCH]

Rumour:
NXEC RP staff will shortly be moved off trains to dedicated station duties and leave the checking of tix on trains to just the guard.

I dont think its a rumour but I maybe wrong but what I have heard from nxec staff is that the currenet crop of ATE's on nxec are to done away with and a new "Super Revenue Protection Team" were to be introduced but apparently this is now on hold due to nxec's "alleged" financial position !:-?

 

[Pumbaa]

I dont think its a rumour but I maybe wrong but what I have heard from nxec staff is that the currenet crop of ATE's on nxec are to done away with and a new "Super Revenue Protection Team" were to be introduced but apparently this is now on hold due to nxec's "alleged" financial position !:-?

Alleged financial position? Is this NXEC are struggling as GNER did to repay the £1.4bn wad to DafT?

 

[yorkie]

Yes. Anyone with any sense of reality looking at the premium payment profile will quickly conclude that it is not feasible. (or, to put it bluntly, the figures are insane). Of course no company is going to be ableto pay such ridiculous sums to the Government. GNER couldn't do it and neither will NX.

I suspect that NX think they can incrase revenue with barriers in particular that of other operators, but this plan will probably backfire IMO.

You find that some pax do buy on board trains e.g. TPE and NT and NXEC want the commision on those sales but it is going to be peanuts compared to the barrier costs. and if they find someone booked on NXEC advance purchase for a train that has already gone they will require them to buy from the ticket office so the mega on-train 100 quid chings won't be issued so surely this will lose them revenue?

I can only think that NX have their sights on other TOCs revenue. it's a commission raid I reckon, which is ironic given NX's dislike of ORCATS raids.

I reckon it will be another Coventry!

By the way NX staff are generally (ok not including upyourjunction!) unhappy at these decisions and are fearful for their jobs. NXEC have already been ruthlessly making people redundant at their so-called head office at York (which will probably end up ceasing to exist entirely the way things are going) and they are making some staff share duties with NXEA! train crew are next to be shafted by the (mis)management.

NX have done nothing good for the route, they cannot be credited with the website even as it was developed by GNER. I feel sorry for the staff at the sharp end.

 

[upyourjunction]

in theoryyes BUT that only really works if you barrier an individual platform. which is usually possible at KGX but I don't see how it can be done at YRK.

sounds like using a GC only ticket is going to be easy on NXEC then if they just check at barriers! and anyone can say "I am getting GC" when one is due anyway.

Won't happen as you won't get through the barrier without a ticket!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By the way NX staff are generally (ok not including upyourjunction!)

QUOTE]

Now you are just showing your ignorance of the Railways and Railway people as no Railwayman would see another redundant!

 

[yorkie]

Now you are just showing your ignorance of the Railways and Railway people as no Railwayman would see another redundant!

so why do you support NXEC re-deploying staff? any staff who do not want to b re-deployed get made redundant.

BTW as for the silly statement you made earlier, I can't be bothered to repeat what I have said before so all I will say is see theblackwatch's post above for the reality!

 

[theblackwatch]

Won't happen as you won't get through the barrier without a ticket!

So what will happen in the instance I highlighted last week, where York ticket office is unable to sell a ticket for the train I was travelling on? The only place I was able to buy it was on the train!

 

[yorkie]

I can imagine him standing there acting like Basil Fawlty, then Sybil comes along and tells him to stop harrassing customers and then apologising to them on his behalf.

 

[BOSCH]

I can only think that NX have their sights on other TOCs revenue. it's a commission raid I reckon, which is ironic given NX's dislike of ORCATS raids

Speaking of orcats raids,what about nxec's proposed 4 services a day in each direction at huntingdon from the december timetable,is that not a direct raid on FCC's revenue ? :???:

 

[AlexS]

According to the PF maps on board the trains (which I checked 4 hours ago on a 170) Birmingham New Street is NOT a compulsory ticket area, but Snow Hill and Moor Street are!

 

[Mojo]

According to the PF maps on board the trains (which I checked 4 hours ago on a 170) Birmingham New Street is NOT a compulsory ticket area, but Snow Hill and Moor Street are!

That's exactly what I asked someone about (no reply yet) to confirm because only the most recent leaflet says so.

Even if it is a Compulsory Ticket Area, any PFs issued in it wouldn't stand because there is inadequate signage.

 

[paul1609]

Personally I reckon barriers at York will be revenue positive for NXEC by quite a wide margin. I think the situation at Coventry for Virgin trains was quite different because many of the passengers were buying low value local tickets as it was part of WMPTE area. When i travelled there last year i think that a day return to Birmingham International was around £3. Whilst there are some of these from York to the likes of the harrogate line I imagine they are very much in the minority and the average fare for a passenger from York will be a lot higher value. Additionally I get the impression that a lot of passengers doing one stop hops on NXEC and XC and TPE are doing so without tickets. I know that at one station on the Westcoastway down here, Southern have increased their revenue by over a £1/4m pa. The cost of the barriers which are only leased by the TOCs is peanuts compared to this sort of revenue increase.

 

[upyourjunction]

so why do you support NXEC re-deploying staff? any staff who do not want to b re-deployed get made redundant.

BTW as for the silly statement you made earlier, I can't be bothered to repeat what I have said before so all I will say is see theblackwatch's post above for the reality!

Who said I support NEXEC redeplotment of staff, I think National Express "a Bus Firm" stink and can't wait while they have to hand the franchice back!. What I am telling you is that you can't w3alk through a barrier without a valid ticket unless there is no facility to buy one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what will happen in the instance I highlighted last week, where York ticket office is unable to sell a ticket for the train I was travelling on? The only place I was able to buy it was on the train!

So you got through a temp barrier ...so what! hundreds of people do every day, doesn't make it right!