NXEC plans to barrier stations

[yorkie]

Platform tickets are available, but not from machines. Some staff refuse to sell them.

 

[dan_atki]

Platform tickets are touchy ground - some staff are instructed not to sell them. This has followed through from the days of APTIS where if you didn't have the correct stock, then as the ticket couldn't be cancelled the only other stock it would print on was an Annual Gard Card! Needless to say, some avid collectors have sought blank stock from somewhere and sent some (along with payment) to ticket offices to request a platform ticket from each machine.

IIRC it is still an option on SHERE should it be needed.

About accompanying people such as that described then it is only really fair that gateline staff exercise common sense. If it is plainly evident all they are going to do is carry the luggage to the train then that should seem genuine enough to the staff to allow them to go through - in many cases I have seen this happen.

 

[thelem]

It can't be all barriers. I buy a return from Filton Abbey Wood to Stapleton Road as it's cheaper than one to Temple Meads and the OUT portion works in the barriers both ways.

You can break at Brighton too - I know you can get through the gates there with an Eastbourne to Wyvelsfield ticket, which doesn't even have to go via Brighton. Does it depend on the station facilities? Both BTN and BRI (it should be BTM!) have station facilities outside the barriers (WH Smith etc), but LTN just has the ticket office and a bus stop.

 

[upyourjunction]

I am pretty sure they have no legal right to prevent you going past. I am pretty sure they can't lay a finger on you either, but perhaps a legal expert can confirm this?

There's no way I am missing a railtour because of some jobsworth anyway so the issue of compensation for missing it would not rise as far as I'm concerned.

It would be the boys in blue laying their fingers on you as you were breaking the law by trying to pass through a barrier without a valid ticket! Forget the fact that GC sell tickets onboard, so do Northern and for that matter NXEC, if there is a barrier you need a valid ticket to pass through!

 

[yorkie]

What law is that then?

Of course you can go through "without a valid ticket" if there's a railtour you intend to get. :roll:

By the time they arrived, I'd be on the tour, and the tour organisers could simply tell them that their services are not needed :roll: They'd probably then tell NXEC off for wasting police time.

 

[Tom B]

I've asked for platform tickets before but told "yerwhat? What are you on about?" - in this case I was going to meet a friend who had a very heavy case - "Oh, well you can wait there, if you're not a railway customer you can't go on the platforms". She had none of the fact that I was *trying* to purchase a platform ticket...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Shere Smart and Fastis can both sell Platform tickets.

You must show a valid ticket when asked to do so by a member of railway staff, or one of its agents, or you will be treated as not having one.

You can board a train without a ticket if a member of railway staff has told you that you can, there is a notice on the station to say you can or there are no facilities to buy a ticket for your journey.

Therefore no-one could stop you boarding a Rail-tour without a ticket as there are no facilities to issue one, except on the train.

 

[furryfeet]

i would like to see a demonstration of this technique - especially if there is a real jobsworth manning the barriers !

a real cart before the horse situation !

 

[PhilipW]

Although my mother is no longer around now, it was quite common when she came down to see me that I would go onto the platform to meet her to carry her luggage and to take her to her carriage and seat when she left. This was normal behaviour. I would be aghast to think now that some one would try and prevent me from doing this and say or suggest that I was doing something "wrong".

Cross country "granny" traffic is quite a big business. I would have thought that train companies would want to encourage it. Everyone looking after their relatives to see they have a safe journey is part of it.

As two examples: I know the position of the gates at both Bristol Temple Meads and St Pancras. At neither would I have been happy at leaving at my mother at them and letting her find the platform, the train, the carriage and the seat. I would have wanted to do that for her. I should be able to do it without hindrance from any railway staff.

 

[jv3531]

If you go through a barrier without permission to travel then you are breaking the law. You also then enter what would be termed a penalty fare area and as you would not be in possession of a valid "ticket or permit" and can be dealt with in that mannor. If you ask to go through and a member of staff lets you, then you shouldn't have a problem. At New Street I have noticed that blank hand issued supplement or similar tickets are issued to people if they wish to access the platform to accompany someone for whatever reason. I have also been told although not experienced it myself yet that New Street have regular spot ticket checks on the platform area itself as well as at the barrier, and will issue penalty fares if necessary!

Some of the telesales still do use airline style tickets and in particualr for ltravel to london, will issue "Gate Pass" tickets to accompany the ticket for you to use in the ticket barriers. I have several my self, one version allows for travel to zones 1-6 for one journey and the other is just zone 1. I think there is also an open version for other stations. With the introduction of the newer ticketing systems thought this seems to have been replaced as was said by the standard ticket type issues instead.

If you do wish to go on the platform, explain the reason, be polite and I'm sure most of the staff will accept.... If in doubt, ask at customer services or seek a duty manager for permission!

 

[PhilipW]

Fine Jv3531, everything that you say is entirely reasonable, but the tone of many earlier posts in this thread is that this does not happen in practice - that Platform tickets are not universally available or that some staff will not issue them.

I would like to think that I being middle aged and (hopefully) respectable could convince a member of staff that my intentions for going onto the platform were for thoroughly deserving reasons but I suspect any any under-25 would have a harder time trying to persuade anyone that he was meeting or seeing off his grandmother.

I note also that many of the "to be gated" stations in the NXEC list at the start of this thread are on the traditional "granny routes" of Cross Country services from the North East to the South and south West.

 

[jv3531]

Completly understand where you are coming from, and yes - there are circumstances where of corse this doesn't happen. If someone is worrid though about getting off at a particular platform, assistance can be booked in advance and should be then available when they arrive, if it is not then the station can be reported for this. There are always going to be situations that do occur and there will always be unfortunatly those that will be less co-operative. As regards the railtour situation the only thing that I can sugest is that maybe a letter should be posted/emailed to those wishing to travel on the train in question, where appropriate with reservations which would then give some backup to the reason for you to be there. Unfortunatly again we seem to now be living in this world of guilty to proven innocent so any form of documentation to back up your clain should be used if necessary. Even just a print out of a timetable or leaflet saying tickets avialable on the train would help ?

 

[upyourjunction]

What law is that then?

Of course you can go through "without a valid ticket" if there's a railtour you intend to get. :roll:

By the time they arrived, I'd be on the tour, and the tour organisers could simply tell them that their services are not needed :roll: They'd probably then tell NXEC off for wasting police time.

Its the Railway Bye-Laws easily found if Googled. If you want to see it in action just get yourself down to Doncaster or Peterboro when they're being gated. Believe me the BTP are on hand to do their job, not to tell the staff off!
What you are spouting is just ill concidered opinion and not Fact!

 

[dan_atki]

I note also that many of the "to be gated" stations in the NXEC list at the start of this thread are on the traditional "granny routes" of Cross Country services from the North East to the South and south West.

If the staff really do refuse to let you *both* through then an alternative would be to find another genuine looking passenger travelling on that service to assist with luggage/seat finding etc.

 

[me123]

I don't know how the barriers will work, but would it not be possible to open the gates on platforms for GC services and railtours whilst keeping the barriers in place for NXEC services?

 

[jv3531]

If the individual platforms are barriered then yes - the individual barrier for that platform could be unlock - a term known probably by some as "throwing the barrier!" If it is accross a number of platforms, then no unless you channel off one or two to do this. Most barriers have an over-ride on them if they needed to, you may also find that they are directly linked to an alarm system so that they can all be thrown in the event of an emergency.

 

[Mojo]

You can break at Brighton too - I know you can get through the gates there with an Eastbourne to Wyvelsfield ticket, which doesn't even have to go via Brighton. Does it depend on the station facilities? Both BTN and BRI (it should be BTM!) have station facilities outside the barriers (WH Smith etc), but LTN just has the ticket office and a bus stop.

It probably just depends on how the barriers have been programmed by the station operator. Afterall, on lots of tickets you can leave the station & never come back, which is *technically* not allowed on some ticket types.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have also been told although not experienced it myself yet that New Street have regular spot ticket checks on the platform area itself as well as at the barrier, and will issue penalty fares if necessary!

Given that [according to the latest list I have in my posession of Penalty Fare (PF) Compulsory Ticket Areas], Birmingham New Street is not designated as a Compulsory Ticket Area under the regulations, then any PF issued under those circumstances would surely be null and void?

 

[jv3531]

Birmingham has been part of the penalty fares system for several years now as has most of the network west midlands (former Centro) area. Most of the old centro publicity advertised this fact as did most of the old sportis type issued tickets. I have seen regular check made on trains by RPIs around the area and most stations advertise the fact even out as far as worcester etc, although not all stations have barriers. They simply state that you "must by a ticket before you board where ticket issueing facilities are available or get a permit to travel, if you fail to produce a ticket or have a permit to travel then you may be charged the £20 or twice the single fare and the cost of an open single if you wish to continue your journey" message. Again this is upto the passenger to purchase a ticket at the first available oppertunity (guard on pay train or, if you hand one of these to an RPI if they check then you would not be charged). One thing to note with this is that permit tickets are not usually available when the ticket office is open or when other facilities are available.

 

[yorkie]

Remember Virgin Trains and CrossCountry do not operate a penalty fares scheme.

 

[jv3531]

New Street has been part of this now for several years. If thats the case, why have the "manned" barriers? Just because Virgin/cross country dosn't have penalty fares, doesn't mean to say that New Street can't be termed a compulsery ticket/penalty fare area. Most of the stations in the former centro area have penalty fare notices and the staff who work in this station will tell you that it is and that you will require a ticket to either leave or join the station area. And besides which, the station isn't TOC owned - although the staff are provided for the barriers by the former central trains.

 

[yorkie]

See http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

"CTA should normally only be created if all the train operators using that station (or the particular part of the station covered by the CTA) have a penalty fares scheme"

This is not the case at BHM.

Having a barrier does not make an area a "Compulsory ticket area".

 

[Mojo]

Most of the stations in the former centro area have penalty fare notices and the staff who work in this station will tell you that it is and that you will require a ticket to either leave or join the station area.

This is not true. Whilst there are some Compulsory Ticket Areas in the former West Midlands County, I know Moor Street is, for example; and the version I have which is about a year old says New Street is not (but things might have changed since then...)

There is a difference between having a random (or even permenant) barrier check, blocking off access to platforms and a Compulsory Ticket Area (either temporary or permanent). It *is* however the case that most of the stations in the former West Midlands County are Penalty Fares stations and if boarding a Penalty Fares train at such location (provided none of the usual exclusions apply) you may be charged.

 

[jv3531]

I can now confirm that as regards the London Midland operating area, New Street, Moor Street, and Snow Hill are ALL compulsary ticket areas. All other stations with the exception of Bletchley - Bedford St Johns, Watford-St Albans Abbey , Boardsley, Whitkicks End, Earlswood, The Lakes, Wood End, Danzey, Henley in Arden, Wootten Wawen, Wilmcote, Barnt Green, Alvechurch, Bromsgrove, Lapworth, Hatton, Hartlebury and Blakedown are penalty fares areas. Those stations listed are open stations, of which tickets can be bought on the train. This is information is correct as per the current Penalty fares leaflet, which is available on line at LMs website under penalty fares....

 

[yorkie]

The key wording there is "as regards the London Midland operating area", if you are not on a LM train and have no business with LM then you are not in a penalty fare area.

LM cannot penalty fare Virgin or XC passengers at Birmingham New Street! Read the DfT material linked to above.

End of!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm pretty sure EMT (Mainline) don't use a PF scheme (they didn't when it was MML), but Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport stations are Penalty fare zones because FCC, and Thameslink before them, have said so, after all, they run the stations.

 

[Mojo]

They can be Penalty Fare stations without being a Compulsory Ticket Area though.

 

[jv3531]

And yes, if you are on or about the platform area you should be in possesion of a ticket regardless of the company you are travelling with. At the end of the day, you have an obligation to purchase a ticket to travel at the earliest opertunity. This is either the ticket office/machine before you board the train, OR from the guard/senior conductor on board the train if the ticket office is closed/machine not working or station is unmanned. If, after having this opertunity to purchase a ticket you still fail to produce a ticket on demand, then you are liable to pay a penalty fare where appropriate or if deamed appropriate face possible prosecution. ANYONE who travels on national rail services are bound by this condition as part of their "contract" to travel and will be dealt with as such. THIS IS PART OF THE NATIONAL CONDDITIONS OF CARRIAGE AND APPLIES TO ALL.

 

[Mojo]

And yes, if you are on or about the platform area you should be in possesion of a ticket regardless of the company you are travelling with.

Only in a compulsory ticket area

At the end of the day, you have an obligation to purchase a ticket to travel at the earliest opertunity.

Only if you intend to travel (or enter a compulsory ticket area)

 

[yorkie]

There's no reasoning with him, and he refuses to read up on the subject, so I've given up discussing it :roll:

 

[jv3531]

Suggest you do check the facts before passing comments like that. I do know what I am talking about and have read all the information. Do not tell me I do not no what I am talking about. Suggest you try your methods if you think they are correct and see what happens.....