NXEC plans to barrier stations

[yorkie]

Apparently NXEC are planning to install ticket barriers at the following stations:-

Grantham
Wakefield W
York
Darlington
Newcastle
Durham
Berwick
Newark

Also King's Cross is to be barriered by Network Rail (that's going to cause massive queues when a train with 600 passengers pulls in).

How on earth can this work at York? Are they going to close the entrance by the NRM only years after opening it? Or are they going to build another ticket office? Are they going to prevent people who arrive at the car parks from getting easy access to the station? they'd better not do!

Newcastle is not going to be easy either.

Also how will it work with GC who are happy to sell tickets on board at no extra cost? do NXEC have the right to take that away from GC?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Also, at Grantham, it is possible to avoid the current ticket check by taking a detour through the cafe.

 

[P156KWJ]

Also, at Grantham, it is possible to avoid the current ticket check by taking a detour through the cafe.

and it would be dangerous at Grantham because of lack of space, when a train rushes by on the other track at 125mph when there's a massive rabble, bit like at Lincoln - they are pointless and a waste of passenger's money there. However, I am not wholly against them as they do help prevent ticketless travel. I can see their benifit at Nottingham but only if they put them at Station Street and Queens Road entrances too (which admitably would be hard)

 

[Galvanize]

I think it said in NEx East Coast's Livewire Mag, that barriers would only be enforced at Kings Cross for entry to the platforms only. It also mentioned Peterborough and Doncaster IIRC.

 

[1D53]

Ticketless travel would be reduced if Nat Ex crews did more than one ticket check in a two hour trip...

 

[First ScotRail]

And if they were given avantix machines to issue tickets...and move forward with the times!

 

[1D53]

And if they were given avantix machines to issue tickets...and move forward with the times!

Leeds guards are learning them currently.

 

[AlexS]

Also, at Grantham, it is possible to avoid the current ticket check by taking a detour through the cafe.

If they do what they did at Wolverhampton when the ticket barrier is there (a man rather than an actual machine though!), the door from the cafe to the ticket office is locked when revenue protection are there and then opened again when they finish - the platform entrance to the cafe remains open at all times.

 

[First ScotRail]

Leeds guards are learning them currently.

Glad to hear that, NX must be making some changes.

 

[Galvanize]

Much like when they started doing barrier checks with Central Trains at New Street, people initially circum-navigated the inspectors by walking through WHSmiths Then they closed off the entrance to WHSmiths on the platform side of the barriers, much to the annoyence of people who wanted to use it while changing trains if they had limited time!

Then they split it in half with a smaller shop on the main corridor, and a larger one on the concourse!

Still, WHSmiths would of been a little annoyed about them loosing trade if they put Revenue Protection inspectors inside the shop

 

[37402]

It also mentioned Peterborough and Doncaster IIRC.

Both stations currently have 'people barriers' in place. Not too hard to get round them if you so desired though...

 

[paul1609]

Apparently NXEC are planning to install ticket barriers at the following stations:-

Grantham
Wakefield W
York
Darlington
Newcastle
Durham
Berwick
Newark

Also King's Cross is to be barriered by Network Rail (that's going to cause massive queues when a train with 600 passengers pulls in).

How on earth can this work at York? Are they going to close the entrance by the NRM only years after opening it? Or are they going to build another ticket office? Are they going to prevent people who arrive at the car parks from getting easy access to the station? they'd better not do!

Newcastle is not going to be easy either.

Also how will it work with GC who are happy to sell tickets on board at no extra cost? do NXEC have the right to take that away from GC?

Its difficult to see why there would be problems at a relatively minor London Terminal like Kings Cross when many of the major terminals already have barriers.

NXEC have the right to instal barriers at their stations regardless of GCs policies. WSMR already operate from barriered stations operated by other TOCs such as Marylebone (Chiltern) and Shrewsbury (ATW). In GC case as they are not looking to extract revenue from the York to London market it shouldnt be a problem.

 

[richa2002]

How is it not a problem for GC? Travel from London to York is valid with GC so yes, it's a problem. Also, King's Cross is hardly a minor terminal...

 

[yorkie]

As long as we can say "We are travelling with GC" and be allowed to pass, there isn't a problem (or, equally, for railtours etc).

I've had problems getting railtours at barriered stations before, and if it wasn't for the train being in sight of the barrier they may not have let me through, e.g. at Southampton.

Barriers are a pain for long distance travellers and totally unnecessary and unwanted.

For local journeys, fine, that's a different matter.

Places like Edinburgh Waverley have it right, where the locals are barriered and the long distance services are not. Other examples include Victoria (Gatwick Express is open) and Glasgow Central (human barriers for Scotrail services only).

 

[paul1609]

GC's business plan stated in their submission to the ORR that they did not intend to extract York to London traffic and they were intending to build a new market from stations that didnt have a direct service to London so sales of tickets at York shouldnt be a problem. Dont they have they own office in York anyway?
In terms of passenger figures Kings Cross is not in the London Terminals premier League.
it is barely in the top 10 of National Rail Stations and handles roughly the same number of passengers as Canon Street.

 

[yorkie]

Here's a thought.

You book a journey by mobile phone. You board a Grand Central service, show your mobile to the guard, the guard is satisfied. During the journey your battery dies. You then go through a NXEC barrier but your mobile is dead so you can't show them your "e ticket". What then?

Of course, NXEC won't be able to interpret the "e ticket" anyway as you have no contract with them.

I don't see how, legally, NXEC can do anything about it, surely?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GC's business plan stated in their submission to the ORR that they did not intend to extract York to London traffic and they were intending to build a new market from stations that didnt have a direct service to London so sales of tickets at York shouldnt be a problem. Dont they have they own office in York anyway?

What's London got to do with it? I could be going to Sunderland!

As for the GC ticket office, you have to be joking!!!

 

[richa2002]

GC's business plan stated in their submission to the ORR that they did not intend to extract York to London traffic and they were intending to build a new market from stations that didnt have a direct service to London so sales of tickets at York shouldnt be a problem.

If York was pick-up only on Northbound services and set-down only on Southbound I would agree but they're not so it's a problem regardless of what their business plan says.

 

[Galvanize]

Places like Edinburgh Waverley have it right, where the locals are barriered and the long distance services are not. Other examples include Victoria (Gatwick Express is open) and Glasgow Central (human barriers for Scotrail services only).

Yeah, when I was changing trains there, on the way to Dundee to visit family, they had human barriers at the top of the stairs at the entrance to the isolated Island Platform, but were only checking tickets for passengers who were entering the platform to catch the 15:40 to North Berwick!

Ticket barriers at Glasgow Queen Street high level is a big pain in the arse, when they first installed them in 2004, I remember seeing people from places like Aberdeen etc stepping off of trains, and looking very confused about the barriers, and saw one person even climbing over them in full view of the staff hock:

I don't get why First Scotrail at Glasgow check tickets at the station when they check tickets on all the suburban trains anyway!

 

[djw1981]

Newcastle shouldn't be too hard to do, since p1, and the west bays can be ignored since they are Northern / TPE / FSR served anyway. p2 can be barriered either side of ticket office, as can the bridge. This does mean some Northern customers having to pre buy tickets, but the ticket machines are next to Costa /Pasty Company IIRC.

Edinburgh is simple - only FSR services are barried, and as FSR have rolled it out to otehr stations it has become more accepted and successful.

The e-ticket issue is an interesting one, because unless their barcoide readers are good enough to cope with scratched mobile screens, then you won't get through the barrier anyway. Unless the Barclays trial of RFID takes off, in which case ticketless paid travel could be easier, without the need to touch in or out, just walk through an arch.

Network Rail are apparently looking at Glasgow Central for barriering all platforms, but with most of the concourse inside the barrier. Would be interesting....

FSR check at stations as well because there used to be / are a few ways to avoid barrier checks involving the lifts from low/high level platforms at Queen St..... Besides 2 checks is good, as it means we have a second staff member on DOO trains on teh electrics network which improves security etc. The more ticket checks, the less chance of ticketless travel, which can only be good.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!

How on earth can [Installing CTS gates] work at York? Are they going to close the entrance by the NRM only years after opening it? Or are they going to build another ticket office? Are they going to prevent people who arrive at the car parks from getting easy access to the station? they'd better not do!

My knowlege of York station is not really that comprehensive as I've only used it twice for changing trains, but the station layout IMO is similar to Guildford where CTS gates have been in use for several years now, and - Aside from the usual London-bound commuter crush every morning - It seems to work without too many problems.

In reality, York could probabally do it successfully by adding a 2-3 gate line on the bridge at the NRM end (With those stairs leading to the bridge anyway, a wheelchair gate could possibly be omitted), add a couple of self-service machines at the foot of the staircase, and have the gate-line itself staffed by SWT-style commercial "Guards", who would inspect non-standard types of ticket (Those on mobile 'phones, home print-outs etc) and issue tickets not available from the machines.

In all honesty...I do find CTS gates a real pain in the backside for the most part (Especially when trying to do a fast change from LuL to Stansted Express at Liverpool St. with bulky luggage! hock: ), but I tolerate them as a necessity on the revenue protection front. An alternative, much faster method of reading tickets - Such as an optical reader using barcodes etc. - Would be nice though, as the 1st generation automated barriers on LuL (Ones that read a simple optical code on the back of the ticket to determine access rights) were - IIRC - A lot faster than the modern ones...And magnetic tickets are a right pain if one is frequently exposed to strong (electro)magnetic fields for whatever reason... :roll:

The barrier installation that I'm dreading the most is the forthcoming installation at Waterloo. Now I'm too tired to look it up to be sure...But at least 400,000 people must use the station for their daily commute (And that estimate is for commuters alone!) And could ye imagine the crush of over 2,000 impatient, rushing commuters trying to squeeze through no more than 100 barriers all at once? hock::mad:
(Would it be worthwhile changing at Clapham Jct for Victoria to avoid this, or is the problem just as bad there? )

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Here's a thought.

You book a journey by mobile phone. You board a Grand Central service, show your mobile to the guard, the guard is satisfied. During the journey your battery dies. You then go through a NXEC barrier but your mobile is dead so you can't show them your "e ticket". What then?....

I believe the phrase is "Your phone, your problem!"

If you pay for a ticket and lose it, you have the same problem, do you suggest we let everyone travel without tickets?

What happens if your mobile battery dies before the guard sees the "e ticket"?

National Conditions of Carraige:

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent,
hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or
other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do
not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant
parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed,
you will be treated as if you were unable to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

 

[paul1609]

As long as we can say "We are travelling with GC" and be allowed to pass, there isn't a problem (or, equally, for railtours etc).

I've had problems getting railtours at barriered stations before, and if it wasn't for the train being in sight of the barrier they may not have let me through, e.g. at Southampton.

Barriers are a pain for long distance travellers and totally unnecessary and unwanted.

For local journeys, fine, that's a different matter.

Places like Edinburgh Waverley have it right, where the locals are barriered and the long distance services are not. Other examples include Victoria (Gatwick Express is open) and Glasgow Central (human barriers for Scotrail services only).

Sorry i dont agree its pretty obvious to me that fare evasion on NXEC is a major problem especially on short hops like York to Doncaster where there is little chance of a ticket check. I think all major stations should be barriered and Penalty fares should be extended nationally as well.

As regards Gatwick Express I believe buy on board is no longer being promoted with a view to barriers being introduced in Sept 09.

 

[me123]

I've was stopped going onto the 0939 GLC-EUS (a Virgin) but they just let me past. I think there was another FSR train on platform 10, though.

Anyway, I've only been to NCL once and YRK a few times as well. In both stations, I can't see it working TBH. ABD works fine, GLQ works fine, EDB also works fine but the layout at some stations makes even the thought of ticket barriers unbearable. NCL in particular would be an absolute nightmare.

 

[91101]

Newcastle could work quite easily, and I say this as a former regular commuter through the station. You have a gateline between the bridge(Costa) and the travel centre for Platform 1 and 2. and then a diagonal line infront of the stairs/ramp of the bridge to access to all other platforms and the west end bays.

Durham again is absolutely fine, just as it is now basically.

Darlington given the nature of the station, I can't see how Darlington can be gated effectively.

York - to me York is the biggest problem, where do you put them without adding to the already heavily congested concourse? If you put them in a straight line in the walkway between the tourist information shop and Whisleestop, then people can get through Pumpkin, or Whislestop, and besides they wouln't be wide enough. Between Uppercrust and Burger King, I doubt would be wide enough again, so the only thing I can see them doing is barracading that off, and the gateline itself going in where the cash machine kiosk is at the North end of the WHSmith, but the kiosk would need to be demolished first.

Doncaster - they are not puting a gateline at Doncaster, despite it being probably the biggest station for fare evasion, a gateline in the subway would be perfect, although I do suspect width may be an issue.

The one I don't understand is Berwick - with less than one train an hour from NXEC I dont see the point.

 

[upyourjunction]

Also how will it work with GC who are happy to sell tickets on board at no extra cost? do NXEC have the right to take that away from GC?

As I have said before NEX have every right to install ticket barriers at stations that they run, simply saying that you intend to buy your ticket on board is not good enough and you will be directed to the booking office to buy a valid ticket to pass through the barrier.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The one I don't understand is Berwick - with less than one train an hour from NXEC I dont see the point.

next they'll be doing alnmouth

 

[1D53]

Last few times I.ve been through Donny they've had a manned barriers.

 

[Mojo]

But don't forget; they said it would be impossible to barrier Reading and they managed that! [1] Those designers can be pretty clever. Don't also forget the safety obligations and passenger flow surveys the Railway Group Standards request.

[1] Admittedly, it's not entirely perfect, last time I was changing there with luggage I went up in a lift from the platform and found myself on the 'Unpaid' side and then down another lift to my other platform and found myself back on the 'Paid' side!

 

[devon_metro]

Wouldn't it just be easier to employ a load of ATEs and RPIs so ticket checks were frequent as I understand NX guards aren't that hot on tickets?

 

[jv3531]

Unfortunatly it seems that barriers are indeed the way forward these days. BRs policy of the open station system seems to have taken a u-turn, mainly due unfortunatly to the amount of ticket-less travel. Also there is the mythe that they will make our trains and platforms safer places (allegedly!) and remove the need for certain members of our society to be policed by platform staff just incase something happens.

As regards e-tickets, if there is a problem I would asume that you will be issued with a gate pass or some form of receipt to allow you to pass through these gates. Also again, with railtours -you normally would be issued with atleast a receipt for your tickets, or a gate pass of some kind to give access.

I can also see that in the future you may not be able to get on a train without a ticket, the way things are going - its not a case of if, more so of when it happens.