Nutter attacks female conductor on Cambrian

[Tibbs]

There are a lot of people on here who are very ill-informed on the British Judicial system!
And who are obviously Daily Mail readers.

Being ill-informed and being a Daily Mail reader is the same thing.

 

[Johnuk123]

People who think prisons are like the Hilton have never been inside one. I've never seen as much depressing hopelessness as when I used to work with a Young Offenders Institute in the north east.

Which prison did you work in and what was your position.

 

[bnm]

I don't want to get into a debate about the 'Hilton' style prisons that this country has,

Then why mention it? I've stayed in various Hilton Hotels and I've stayed in various prisons, from Cat B dispersal to Cat D open. I can assure you none of them come close to any sort of hotel you'd gladly pay for. Not even the Cat D open.

Been inside? If not then it's just more hyperbole from someone with little idea about the criminal justice system.

but there should be a punishment that fits the crime. To me it's a crime that the sentence (on this occasion) was so lenient.

So this guy's sentence is, in your opinion, too lenient, yet you want to send him to a mythical cushy 'Hilton' type establishment. How confused is that?

 

[crewmeal]

I've stayed in various Hilton Hotels and I've stayed in various prisons, from Cat B dispersal to Cat D open. I can assure you none of them come close to any sort of hotel you'd gladly pay for. Not even the Cat D open.

From a Channel 4 programme recently, it mentioned prisoners at Pentonville can idly watch football all day courtesy of Sky. Now as far as I'm concerned I have to pay to watch Sky sports. They get 3 meals a day provided. Some are in open prisons where they can come and go as they please. Some are taken on day trips. Not having any experience of the penal system unlike you I get my information from factual programmes. Right or wrong the information can be taken in any way you like.

 

[Tibbs]

From a Channel 4 programme recently, it mentioned prisoners at Pentonville can idly watch football all day courtesy of Sky. Now as far as I'm concerned I have to pay to watch Sky sports. They get 3 meals a day provided. Some are in open prisons where they can come and go as they please. Some are taken on day trips. Not having any experience of the penal system unlike you I get my information from factual programmes. Right or wrong the information can be taken in any way you like.

Could you imagine what the reaction would be if someone came on here and said "I watched one TV programme, therefore I know how the railway works"?

You're doing exactly the same thing with prisons.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Which prison did you work in and what was your position.

I've been a criminal defence paralegal and also a community care legal adviser. The one I was talking about was HMYOI Deerbolt, but HMYOI Lancaster Farms isn't a great deal better.

 

[Antman]

I've been a criminal defence paralegal and also a community care legal adviser. The one I was talking about was HMYOI Deerbolt, but HMYOI Lancaster Farms isn't a great deal better.

The fact is though offenders keep returning to them, a spell inside is supposed to deter them from further crime but in many cases it just isn't happening.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

And where has the current non-simplistic view based system got us? A society where anti social behaviour and thuggish criminality is rampant and growing.

Crime levels are currently 60% below their peak in 1995 and at the lowest since records began in 1981.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

Get your facts straight. Society today is in a far better state than it has been in the recent past and thuggish criminality is NEITHER rampant NOR growing.

Current policing methods and the current legal system and penalties are contributing to this decline and do not need to be changed just because some people are outraged at a case they read in the paper.

 

[Tibbs]

Crime levels are currently 60% below their peak in 1995 and at the lowest since records began in 1981.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

Get your facts straight. Society today is in a far better state than it has been in the recent past and thuggish criminality is NEITHER rampant NOR growing.

Current policing methods and the current legal system and penalties are contributing to this decline and do not need to be changed just because some people are outraged at a case they read in the paper.

Also bear in mind that people are much more likely to report crime now. A relative of mine was a Police Officer for more that 30 years, from the 60s to the 90s. He said that, based on his experience certain things went from being normal to being unacceptable, even though it's always been illegal. I his case it was domestic violence. In the places he worked it was not considered unusual to have a drink after work, go home and give your wife a quick workover to get rid of the stresses of the week. He used to hear it on his beat, but there was never a complaint. Now, that's very much frowned upon and someone who beats is wife is rightfully vilified. And of course don't forget that paragon of 60s sensibility, Sean Connery who was quoted in Playboy in 1965 as saying "‘I don't think there is anything particularly wrong about hitting a woman - although I don’t recommend doing it in the same way that you’d hit a man. An open-handed slap is justified, if all other alternatives fail and there has been plenty of warning. If a woman is a bitch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded continually, then I’'d do it.’"

And remember the 'golden' 60s and 70s when it was safe to leave your door unlocked and children could play with abandon in the streets? Well they were also the 'golden' period for kiddy fiddlers, as evidenced by the cases going on now. The reason you didn't know about it was because it was regularly covered up.

Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The challenge we have today is that it's much more difficult to hide things we don't like. We're also picking up the mess left for us by prior generations.

 

[Aldaniti]

Current policing methods and the current legal system and penalties are contributing to this decline ....

You're absolutely right there... If the police don't turn out and don't give a crime reference number there's nothing to add to the statistics. Voila!

Many members of the public probably don't even bother reporting low-level crime and anti-social behaviour nowadays because they know it will be futile. Even if it does get to court they're hardly likely to run into Judge Jeffreys.

And if all that doesn't work, either the police or the politicians will fiddle the figures. Statistics are a wonderful tool, often designed to fool those most easily deluded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Read all about it, read all about it.... Police fiddle crime stats shocker:

https://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/39533/privacy_policy.html
http://news.sky.com/story/1199685/crime-figures-drop-amid-fiddling-concerns
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...derreporting-of-serious-offences-9247074.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25002927

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-targets-Even-rapes-not-recorded-say-MPs.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...tinely-fiddle-crime-figures-MPs-are-told.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ecord-low-amid-claims-of-police-fiddling.html

 

[Hebden Bridger]

You're absolutely right there... If the police don't turn out and don't give a crime reference number there's nothing to add to the statistics. Voila!

Many members of the public probably don't even bother reporting low-level crime and anti-social behaviour nowadays because they know it will be futile. Even if it does get to court they're hardly likely to run into Judge Jeffreys.

And if all that doesn't work, either the police or the politicians will fiddle the figures. Statistics are a wonderful tool, often designed to fool those most easily deluded.

Please get your facts straight, if you had bothered to read the report I linked to, you would see I was referring to the results of the Crime Survey, which is totally independent of the numbers of crimes reported to the police.

Reported crime levels are also falling, although not by the same rate because as it has just been pointed out the % of crimes reported to the police is rising.

So you have better evidence than the official figures? Go on tell us all. I'd be interested if you have any rational basis for your claims.

 

[Aldaniti]

Please get your facts straight, if you had bothered to read the report I linked to, you would see I was referring to the results of the Crime Survey, which is totally independent of the numbers of crimes reported to the police.

Reported crime levels are also falling, although not by the same rate because as it has just been pointed out the % of crimes reported to the police is rising.

So you have better evidence than the official figures? Go on tell us all. I'd be interested if you have any rational basis for your claims.

Hey, listen, if you want to believe crime statistics, whether from the BCS, police, government or Uncle Tom Cobley that's you business!

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Hey, listen, if you want to believe crime statistics, whether from the BCS, police, government or Uncle Tom Cobley that's you business!

Yes I do. They're not perfect but they're far more accurate than the reporting of the gutter press.

Rather than change the subject, please answer the question asked, what rational and credible evidence do you have for your statements?

I'm having a good laugh at you too. The ill-informed rants of the hang them and birch them brigade are really quite amusing, if a little sad.

 

[Llanigraham]

Hey, listen, if you want to believe crime statistics, whether from the BCS, police, government or Uncle Tom Cobley that's you business!

So you are willing to accept figures from the dregs of the Press, then?

 

[bnm]

So you are willing to accept figures from the dregs of the Press, then?

Of course he or she is. Because it fits their mindset.

Newspaper reports are often a wonderful tool, often written to fool the easily deluded.

 

[Aldaniti]

So you are willing to accept figures from the dregs of the Press, then?

Nope. In isolation the only thing I believe in the papers is the date. And I think one of them got that wrong a while back.

Let me make it easier..... nobody will ever produce any crime stats that come anywhere near the true situation. Think about it.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Surely the fact that a case like this is considered worthy of newspaper coverage is proof that tolerance to such criminal activity has gone down.

Dare I say that ten years ago even, such a story would not even have been considered newsworthy.

 

[bnm]

Let me make it easier..... nobody will ever produce any crime stats that come anywhere near the true situation. Think about it.

True adj. In accordance with fact or reality.

Are the statistics published by the ONS neither true or real?

If you think not then please refute them with evidence gathered. Don't forget your sample size, correlation, dependent and independent variables, analysis, interpretation and explanation.

 

[SouthStand]

Why was she attempting to check his ticket on entry anyway?

 

[Tracky]

Only guessing Southstand, but she may have met him before...

... and, I suspect, any guards who meet him in the future will ask to see a ticket before they let him on.


And Tim, a few years ago this would not have made the news. Before CCTV I suspect justice would have come as the driver giving the lad a beating...

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought the same, though from the description of the incident I'd bet a pint on the young man in question having some sort of mental health issue. Of course, that's of little comfort to the guard and doesn't excuse the perpetrator's actions- it may explain them. Of course any details of such would rightly be unlikely to be released to the press, I'd hope that this young man will be given any help he might need to turn his life around. If he does have some form of mental illness, gaoling him would be unlikely to achieve such ends.

And there is the stigma perpetuated by the press.

Someone with mental health issues is more likely to intend to harm themselves rather than anyone else.

The polite word for this man is scumbag. I can think of many other words but I'm not going to use them on this forum

 

[455driver]

Why was she attempting to check his ticket on entry anyway?

Possibly doing local door only to try and stop the scum getting on the train, it is done quite a lot in certain areas.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you'd spent as much time as I have listening to Magistrates and Judges you would realise that "taken into account" in practice means lip service.

It is also the case that the offenders mitigation plea has to be taken into consideration completely equally.

As I stated earlier the prosecution offered no evidence as to the impact on the victim, you can't expect the Magistrates to guess in such circumstances. Therefore it wasn't taken into account.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Possibly doing local door only to try and stop the scum getting on the train, it is done quite a lot in certain areas.

It's normal practice for a full ticket check on departure from Shrewsbury as the conductors usually change and to make sure passengers are in the right portion for the coast and Aberystwyth. The conductors end up at the front end at Welshpool, the platform at a Welshpool is accessed by a footbridge that starts at the far DOWN end of the platform the waiting shelter is there too so westbound passengers are usually congregated by the lead carriage. It could well be the conductor opened the door right next to the defendant.

 

[tsr]

Some guards will carry out ticket checks if there is a wait at a station for a while before departure - for example, if the train arrives early, and there are no meaningful ways to deal with dispatch or assist customers in other ways.

 

[Springs Branch]

Surely the fact that a case like this is considered worthy of newspaper coverage is proof that tolerance to such criminal activity has gone down.

Dare I say that ten years ago even, such a story would not even have been considered newsworthy.

What always irritates me with these occurrences is the disparity between responses & outcomes depending on the mode of transport involved.

Imagine three scenarios:-

1) Mad Jack McMad goes to the airport. Tells the staff at the Gate "I don't have a boarding pass. I don't care, I'm flying anyway". Pushes past the airline staff and runs off down the boarding ramp towards the plane door.

2) Same deal, but at a railway station. Assaults and spits on the guard, pushes his way onto train and starts interfering with the controls. Refuses to co-operate with police when apprehended.

3) Gets on a local bus. Tells driver "I'm not paying", gets into argument and assaults driver.


In (1), he would be tackled to the ground by three armed police in less than a minute. Led off in handcuffs, locked up and probably charged under some hijacking or anti-terrorism law. Story would be on national TV news. He would need a good lawyer and fantastic mitigating circumstances to avoid some sort of custodial sentence and lifetime ban from airline / airport involved.

In (2), he might be arrested, case heard by magistrate and reported in local paper. Given a bit of community service and a £50 fine. Free to travel by same train the next day if he wants.

In (3), if it's in a larger town or city, no-one hears about the incident. If you're lucky the police might turn up and fill in a report, but no-one cares very much, except the passengers on the bus who are annoyed their journey has been delayed.

I witnessed situation (3) on a bus near Manchester several years ago. When the police finally turned up (after the miscreant had wandered off) they went through the motions writing a report, but seemed a bit annoyed to be held up there. Unspoken attitude was "you're driving a bus, this is what happens on buses, deal with it".

I guess it all depends what tier of society is involved / affected by his behaviour. Bad luck if you're a city bus driver or passenger.

 

[Class377]

Why was she attempting to check his ticket on entry anyway?

I've seen it happen a couple of times on quieter routes down in the South West at stations immediately after full ticket checks - seems to me that it's a pretty good way of making sure people have tickets without wandering up and down the train and having to remember who you've already checked

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've seen it happen a couple of times on quieter routes down in the South West at stations immediately after full ticket checks - seems to me that it's a pretty good way of making sure people have tickets without wandering up and down the train and having to remember who you've already checked

There is a degree of attempted ticketless travel between Newtown and Welshpool unfortunately and the better conductors are wise to it especially the Machynlleth based ones. We do get the odd train worked by Shrewsbury or Crewe conductors who are known to stay in the rear cab on an evening service. And dare I say they tend to be Male whereas the female conductors conduct the checks.

 

[Antman]

Only guessing Southstand, but she may have met him before...

... and, I suspect, any guards who meet him in the future will ask to see a ticket before they let him on.


And Tim, a few years ago this would not have made the news. Before CCTV I suspect justice would have come as the driver giving the lad a beating...

I really cannot imagine any train driver taking it upon themselves to give anybody 'a beating'!

Using reasonable force to defend a colleague is one thing but anybody going beyond that is likely to end up in court, and quite possibly prison, themselves.

As for this notion that some are putting forward about crime levels falling, if that were true shouldn't the prison population be falling at a similar rate? Instead the exact opposite is happening, indeed I suspect this thug escaped prison because of the overcrowding issues. It is people reporting crime that is falling!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fact is though offenders keep returning to them, a spell inside is supposed to deter them from further crime but in many cases it just isn't happening.

Short prison spells are not a deterrent, but nor are they rehabilitative. Prison is only a deterrent to people who have something to lose by being sent inside.

The solution is to focus on rehabilitation- give these people something to lose. Do this by giving them the skills to enable them to work. Not everyone will respond, but a good proportion of them will.

Ever more draconian prison sentences don't work, unless you have shares in G4S or Serco. Just look at the US- 1% of their population is in prison, and they have massive violent crime issues.

 

[Bellbell]

There is a degree of attempted ticketless travel between Newtown and Welshpool unfortunately and the better conductors are wise to it especially the Machynlleth based ones. We do get the odd train worked by Shrewsbury or Crewe conductors who are known to stay in the rear cab on an evening service. And dare I say they tend to be Male whereas the female conductors conduct the checks.

I imagine the Crewe guards stay in the back cab answering questions from control about why they're working a train over a route they don't sign