Nutter attacks female conductor on Cambrian

[swj99]

........everyone is entitled to a defence and mitigation, but I would be interested to see any proposals for a different way of doing things..........

I agree. It's one of the corner stones of the justice system. Where it falls down is that some judges and magistrates seem a little too ready to fall for the 'oh poor me' mitigation pleas. Now I know there are sentencing guidelines that have to be followed, but the way some of these miscreants seem to get let off, it's almost an open invitation for people to go out and commit crime.

I applied to become a magistrate a few years ago, and was turned down. I suspect that it might have been because of my reply to the interview panel's question about drug and alcohol related crime. I said I had absolutely no sympathy for people who commit crime whilst under the influence, and that on the basis that they still chose to do those illegal acts, they deserve to be punished. I don't think they liked my comments regarding the somewhat lenient sentences sometimes handed down to people. It's not as if I was advocating bringing back hanging or anything, but I might as well have been, considering the response I got. I also said I didn't buy into the 'sob story' mitigation pleas that most defence solicitors trot out, in which it is often suggested that the defendant wasn't reponsible for their crime. You know the one, or a variation of it. My client has had a terrible upbringing, he was depressed after his wife / girlfriend / boyfriend left him, he'd recently lost his job, the alarm clock went off late so he went on a drunken rampage and smashed up 27 phone boxes, his stereo blew up, his shoes wore out, someone spilt his pint, the dog ate his homework, etc. But it's not his fault because he was socially excluded.

...... the use of the word 'nutter' is distasteful to say the least.

To you maybe, but given the circumstances I can understand why people may have suggested it.
Considering the way the guy behaved, I'm not sure how anyone can feel any sympathy towards him.

..............
If being a tw@ is a mental illness ......

It probably is. And if it's not yet recognised by the medical profession yet, I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

 

[bnm]

And where has the current non-simplistic view based system got us? A society where anti social behaviour and thuggish criminality is rampant and growing.

Latest crime statistics from October 2013 show ASBOs have reduced year on year since their introduction in 1999. With a six percent drop between 2011 and 2012.

In 1995 (when crime was at its peak) 5.3% of adults aged 16 and over were a victim of violent crime compared with the 2012/13 Crime Survey for England and Wales (carried out by the Office for National Statistics) where the victimisation rate was less than half the rate in 1995 (2.6%).

Over recent years, the number of currently recorded homicides has shown a generally downward trend and the numbers for 2012/13 (551) and 2011/12 (530) were the lowest since 1989 (521).

In 2012/13, the police recorded 8,135 offences in which firearms were used, a 15% decrease compared with 2011/12. Offences involving knives or sharp instruments also fell by 15% between 2011/12 and 2012/13 (to 26,340). For context, overall police recorded crime fell by 7% over the same period.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime...iod-ending-december-2013/sty-crime-stats.html
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-december-2013/index.html

Rampant and growing? Statistics from household surveys, HMCS and the police all show otherwise. But, rather like the Daily Mail is wont to do, we won't let facts stand in the way of hyperbole. :roll:

 

[bnm]

I wonder what would happen if a couple Louise work colleagues went and 'had a chat' with this scum what sort of sentence they would receive?
One law for them and another for the decent people of society!

'Decent people of society' do not take part in vigilantism. I'd fully hope that anyone carrying out retribution in such a way was given a custodial sentence.

 

[DownSouth]

Some further detail

he said his behavior was inexcusable and couldn't explain it so his non belligerence at court would help him slightly.
He was at the upper end of a non custodial sentence.
There was no victim statement or information on how the incident effected the Conductor provided by the prosecution. I'm told if there was, even if it was along the lines of I took two weeks off work and sometimes still feel anxiety approaching Welshpool he probably would have got custodial.

It would also appear that the prosecution recognised it was probably a 'moment of madness' act rather than a calculated act by a hardened career criminal, and that therefore it was not in the public interest to push for him to be imprisoned which would increase the chance of re-offending and also bring him under the influence of hardened career criminals.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but the prosecution has done the right thing.

They would probably get a worse punishment as it would be seen as premeditated and a revenge attack.

Quite rightly so, one function of the justice system is to stop things escalating out of control. You would think that most people should understand the value of stopping things before they go too far, especially at this time just weeks away from the centenary of the events which snowballed into WWI.

I'm sure that there will still be some level of extra-judicial punishment by the train operator, such as a ban on using any of their services despite the private operator just being the custodians of the Welsh people's public transport system.

 

[HSTEd]

A custodial sentence for assault and two relatively minor offences under railway specific laws would be rather heavy probably.

'Endangering the safety of people on the railway' is one thing but since noone was actually harmed it would be difficult to do anything but pass the minimum sentence.

 

[nw1]

Disgusting behavior. Perhaps he was off his head on drugs or drink - though that's certainly no excuse... "it wasn't me officer, it was the Boddingtons".

But he really should have been locked up - for being a member of the Labour party!

I know this was supposed to be humorous but... there does seem to be this worrying new form of political correctness where if you're at all seen left-of-centre you're seen as a bit off-the-wall....

(EDITED - as I put down stuff which was getting seriously off topic)

 

[crewmeal]

Which is why (I hope) you're not involved in our legal or penal system.

OK if your soft on crime that's your choice. But remember the victims in all this who have to go around trying to live normal lives when these thugs get away with what has happened.

 

[NSEFAN]

OK if your soft on crime that's your choice. But remember the victims in all this who have to go around trying to live normal lives when these thugs get away with what has happened.

Out of interest, do you think that the victim should get to decide the sentence?

 

[crewmeal]

Well that does happen in other countries. However in this instance the case should have been referred to a Crown Court where a Judge and Jury can decide. That's how our legal system works. So the answer is a straight no.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I applied to become a magistrate a few years ago, and was turned down. I suspect that it might have been because of my reply to the interview panel's question

It probably was, but not for the reason you seem to think.

Have a play with You Be The Judge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the case should have been referred to a Crown Court where a Judge and Jury can decide.

The offence is an "each way" offence, it does not have to go to Crown Court. There's no reason why it should have done, Magistrates can send people to prison (and frequently do).

I've worked on cases where Magistrates have sent the matter to Crown Court for sentencing because they know the Crown Court will be more lenient.

 

[Johnuk123]

The effect on the victim is taken into account by the Magistrates when considering the sentence on the accused.

If you'd spent as much time as I have listening to Magistrates and Judges you would realise that "taken into account" in practice means lip service.

It is also the case that the offenders mitigation plea has to be taken into consideration completely equally.

 

[crewmeal]

Exactly! Well said Johnuk123

 

[Tibbs]

OK if your soft on crime that's your choice. But remember the victims in all this who have to go around trying to live normal lives when these thugs get away with what has happened.

How is his life going to be normal? He now has a conviction for a crime of violence. He's f*cked his life for the next, what, 7 years. How many potential employers will look at that record and think - nope not employing that guy? I wouldn't employ him if I had someone else as suitable.

As for soft on crime? No, I have an educated view on crime. It's not just about retribution and deterrance, it's much more about making sure they don't do it again.

I'd also much rather our money goes on Schools and Healthcare than on locking potentially useful members of society away for a period when they could be contributing usefully to society. I'd much rather the money that would be spent on bars and walls be spent on making sure that the victim is cared for and helped over an awful incident and making sure that the offender is punished and helped to be a useful member of society. Prison is enormously expensive and not very effective.

I realise that I don't have the simplistic black and white 19th century view of justice that you evidently favour, but I would strongly argue that my way works better than yours. It's one of the reasons why Sweden has a much lower crime and re-offending rate than the USA. Locking a bunch of criminals up together is also a very effective way of making better criminals.

 

[tony6499]

Thoughts go out to her and hope she is ok, any kind of assault whilst working is traumatic and I hope she gets the full support of her managers at this time

 

[CalderRail]

He probably still is!

Pretty typical of my experiences of members of the Labour Party, regardless of age.

 

[Geezertronic]

It would also appear that the prosecution recognised it was probably a 'moment of madness' act rather than a calculated act by a hardened career criminal, and that therefore it was not in the public interest to push for him to be imprisoned which would increase the chance of re-offending and also bring him under the influence of hardened career criminals.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but the prosecution has done the right thing.

Or on the other hand, he could realise that he has gotten away with it and the chances of him doing something similar again without fear of a serious punishment could be increased (regardless of a previous conviction)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Or on the other hand, he could realise that he has gotten away with it and the chances of him doing something similar again without fear of a serious punishment could be increased (regardless of a previous conviction)

And if he went into prison he could learn new tricks from the inmates, end up even more in trouble with the wrong crowd, and end up so far off the rails that he's upside down in a ditch.

Locking people up and throwing away the key is expensive- very expensive- and doesn't really achieve much. He'll get more support out on community service than he ever would sitting in a small box for three months.

But that's what people need to decide. Is justice around making sure he doesn't do it again, or is justice around making him suffer?

 

[Geezertronic]

I guess it would be what his 250 hours of unpaid work is doing. If it is something relating to the community or railway or even something relating to his crime then maybe the lesson would sink in during that time. I don't really have any knowledge of the sort of work people have to do in this circumstance tbh

 

[crewmeal]

Tibbs I respect what you say, however there are many who have been down your road so to speak and come out and re offended on a much bigger scale. I don't want to get into a debate about the 'Hilton' style prisons that this country has, but there should be a punishment that fits the crime. To me it's a crime that the sentence (on this occasion) was so lenient.

 

[Tibbs]

Tibbs I respect what you say, however there are many who have been down your road so to speak and come out and re offended on a much bigger scale. I don't want to get into a debate about the 'Hilton' style prisons that this country has, but there should be a punishment that fits the crime. To me it's a crime that the sentence (on this occasion) was so lenient.

There are far more that go down your chosen road and do much worse having been to criminal school, which is effectively what prison is.

 

[CalderRail]

I'm with Tibbs on that one

250 hours of community service - effectively a 5 week full-time punishment plus he has to pay his own living costs - is much more effective.

 

[Johnuk123]

There are far more that go down your chosen road and do much worse having been to criminal school, which is effectively what prison is.

It's a bit of a myth that prisons turn all new prisoners into master criminals with an enhanced range of skills.

As prison as a punishment is way down the line for most crime except really serious stuff most prisoners in for the first time are already very capable criminals.

 

[Bill Stanier]

The effect on the victim is taken into account by the Magistrates when considering the sentence on the accused.

Surely, that should be 'the likely effects on the victim'. That's all the perpetrator would know about when he committed the crime.

It's a bit like someone gets assaulted and knocked to the ground, but unknown to anyone he has a very thin skull and the fall to the ground kills him. The perpetrator would only be punished in line with the assault - the tragic death because of the thin skull couldn't have been known about in advance, and would therefore not affect the sentence.

 

[SPADTrap]

There are far more that go down your chosen road and do much worse having been to criminal school, which is effectively what prison is.

Interesting and common theory. What have you got to substantiate that?

I ask with genuine interest.

 

[Pugwash]

To you maybe, but given the circumstances I can understand why people may have suggested it.
Considering the way the guy behaved, I'm not sure how anyone can feel any sympathy towards him.


It probably is. And if it's not yet recognised by the medical profession yet, I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

Point well missed - Mental illness hits millions of people in many different ways.

 

[Tibbs]

Interesting and common theory. What have you got to substantiate that?

I ask with genuine interest.

I'll try to dig the stuff out I have, but one of the best things I've seen was a dispatches programme (I think) that compared the re-offending rates of UK prisoners and of those in Sweden. It highlighted just how poor the education of a lot of the inmates of UK prisons were, and simply being able to get them to read & write was enough to stop them re-offending in the future.

There are also some very interesting articles on Quora that describe just what it's like in Prison, and it certainly isn't a Hilton...

 

[Llanigraham]

There are a lot of people on here who are very ill-informed on the British Judicial system!
And who are obviously Daily Mail readers.

 

[SPADTrap]

Point well missed - Mental illness hits millions of people in many different ways.

Yes it does, as in this case it affected the guard by way of viscous assault.

 

[crewmeal]

On what grounds?

Well if attempting to hijack a train isn't a criminal offence apart from assaulting the train manager then I don't know what is! If it had been an aircraft then he could have been shot!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a bit of a myth that prisons turn all new prisoners into master criminals with an enhanced range of skills.

That probably is a myth- master criminals don't get caught.

But people who go inside tend to end up associating more with other people who have been inside. Essentially prison ends up ensuring that criminals socialise with other criminals, and that has implications.

Rates of mental ill-health, drug and alcohol abuse and illiteracy are much higher in the prison population than in the general population. The key is sorting those things out. That's impossible with short prison sentences. Even the National Audit Office agree that prisoners on short sentences basically get fed and watered and nothing else, sitting in their cell for most of the sentence. They don't get access to treatment or education programmes because they're not inside long enough. Prisoners on short sentences are far more likely to have repeatedly offended in the past; the average is 16 offences. Short prison sentences end up being little more than a revolving door.

250 hours community service is far better for all concerned than putting someone inside for two or three months. But people see community service as a "soft option" not as a real punishment, hence why we have a record number of people in prison.

People who think prisons are like the Hilton have never been inside one. I've never seen as much depressing hopelessness as when I used to work with a Young Offenders Institute in the north east.