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Northwest Electrification Projects

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Whistler40145

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I presume the work on Farnworth Tunnel will be similar to that carried out in Haymarket Tunnel?

Also, will the trackbed be lowered through Chorley Tunnel and the section where the Arches used to be?
 
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I believe the chorley arches have already been adapted for electrification, as is usually the case these days when trackbeds are lowered or bridges renewed.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Some additional titbits Huyton Junction linespeed will be increased from 25mph to 40mph as part of the project and Prescot signal box will be decommisioned.

Does anyone know if Astley box is to be decommissioned?
It's the only AB box on the line and a real oddity with only a short control area.
The semaphores have only just gone.
I imagine it will be tacked onto Warrington's area.

Also does anybody know what line speed increases are going to happen?
There is a general remark somewhere in the "Liverpool-Leeds journey time reduction" plan that it will be mostly 90mph (up from 75), but will this apply to the Chat Moss stretch, 3 miles of which which are currently 60mph?
It makes it really tedious between Newton le Willows and Eccles.
 

WatcherZero

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I think where there are easy improvements that increase linespeed which can be done at the same time (for example limits due to structures, signals which are being moved anyway or lineside equipment) they will.
 

lancastrian

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Well what I hope is that they do this electrification properly, and will electrify short section past junctions which would make electrifing those line easier in the furture. If this or infact any Government, had a logical, well though out national Electrification plan, then many of the lines in the North West would have been electrified by now.

Farnworth tunnels, the track bed can be lowered and it is possible to electrify through them. What is really needed is for the North West Electrification to be logically extended.

The following line should be added to the current electrification.
  • Lancaster/Hest Bank to Morecambe
  • Salford Crescent/Bolton to Wigan & Southport
  • Manchester Victoria & Guide Bridge to Stalybridge
  • Warrington to Chester
  • Crewe to Holyhead/Llandudno
  • Guide Bridge/Ashburys to Rose Hill & Chinley
  • Hazel Grove to Buxton

I am sure others could come up with even more options, but I am sure that which ever short sited Government we have, do not have the forsight to plan these thing properly.
 

tbtc

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Well what I hope is that they do this electrification properly, and will electrify short section past junctions which would make electrifing those line easier in the furture. If this or infact any Government, had a logical, well though out national Electrification plan, then many of the lines in the North West would have been electrified by now

I agree with you.

However, the fact that the Thames Valley branches won't be electrified (meaning they either lose peak time services to/from London, or DMUs have to run under the wires) suggests to me that the electrifications are more about wiring as much main line as possible, not trying to do things in a logical manner.

If you don't wire up short lines like Windermere at the same time as doing the main lines then you leave problems for the future (e.g. does Windermere lose what few direct trains it has to Manchester, or do we put up with DMUs running 90% under the wires?) - its a lot harder to get lines electrified later on (e.g. as Walsall - Rugeley wasn't wired at the same time as other WCML lines, it's remained a "diesel island")
 

Nym

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The problem with Oxenhome - Windermere (if the current diagrams are to be kept) is that the stock would be (as it was before) shared with the MIA - BIF runs.

I can only really comment about the bolton area as it is my commute, but here we go...

With the current plans (and assuming similar to the current diagrams, as below)

MIA - Barrow / Windermere
MIA - Blackpool N
MIA - Southport
Hazel Grove - Preston
Victoria - Blackpool North
Victoria - Wigan Wallgate
Victoria - Wigan Wallgate (All stops Crescent - Bolton)
Victoria - Clitheroe

Only Hazel Grove - Preston, MIA - Blackpool and Victoria - BPN could become elecric, with a diesel stopper still messing up the works.

One addition could be a turnback siding at Horwich Parkway for the all stations stoppers to run there instead of Wigan.

That would mean 3tph electric and 5tph diesel without any additions.

Diverting the all stations to terminate at Bolton or extend to Horwich / Chorley would make it 4tph and 4tph (and add additional paths by the stopper being out the way quicker)

Electrification of Lostock Jcn - Wigan S Jcns would mean the only diesels would be:

Airport - Lakes
Victoria - Clitheroe
Airport - Southport

It would of course be nice to have, with the freed up paths, 2tph stoppers for Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley and Clifton. Idealy a service pattern I'd like to see would be 10tph into Manchester from Bolton.

Diesel:
Southport - Airport
Lakes - Airport
Clitheroe (Hellfeild / Ribblehead / Carlisle) - Victoria
Blackburn - Victoria (Todmorden Loop?)

Electric:
Blackpool N - Airport
Blackpool N - Victoria
Preston - Hazel Grove
Preston / Chorley / Horwich Parkway - Victoria (Stopping betwen Bolton & Salford)
Wigan - Victoria (2tph) (Stopping betwen Bolton & Salford)

In addition to this I'd be adding more platforms at Lostock Parkway to be able to have trains from both directions call there, giving both Horwich Parkway and Lostock Parkway 4tph each into Manchester. (All electrics through Horwich and 2 in each direction at Lostock). With larger car parks for each, in addition to this, platform 5 at Bolton and a big car park in the remaining spare land, or platform 6.

And I'd also build Leigh Railway Station (routed via Walkden) with 2tph to Wigan WG and 2tph to Leigh through Walkden. Of course this would mean Salford Crescent would need beefing up slightly for 14tph (4tph piccadilly & 10tph victoria)

Off this topic slightly but still on the topic of the topic, I'd be looking at grade seperating Ordstall Lane Junction for trains from Victoria to and from the Chat Moss using a flyover. The Ordstall Curve meeting the current alignment over the viaduct, passing under the Vic - Chat Moss viaduct.

This would result in the Ordstall Cuve being on the 'centre pair of tracks' into Victoria and Chat Moss on the south (To terminate on the new platforms)
 

Whistler40145

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Nym

I wonder how many passengers actually travel throughout from Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly to Barrow/Windermere or only use it to travel from Manchester to Bolton & Preston?

If they only use it between Manchester & Bolton/Preston, why not start them @ Preston, after electrification, you already have MIA-EDB/GLC & MIA-BPN services!
 

Nym

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Being a regular patron on the MIA - Windermere service before it got cut, I can say, yes. Tourists arrive into the UK at Manchester Airport and there was somtimes a full carrage of seats reserved to Oxenhome.

Same as for a lot of passengers beween the south lakes and barrow to MIA.
 

Whistler40145

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Nym, on the other hand, what did we do when the Windermere service only started at Oxenholme?

I remember in the late 1980s it being a three car 'Splutter Cart'.
 

Nym

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Change at Oxenhome, but the two hourly (somtimes hourly in evening peaks) BIF service is going to be needed to be kept, so why not plug the gaps with Windermere services, or go mad, build a new coard and split them at Carnforth?
 

bluenoxid

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Well what I hope is that they do this electrification properly, and will electrify short section past junctions which would make electrifing those line easier in the furture. If this or infact any Government, had a logical, well though out national Electrification plan, then many of the lines in the North West would have been electrified by now.

Farnworth tunnels, the track bed can be lowered and it is possible to electrify through them. What is really needed is for the North West Electrification to be logically extended.

The following line should be added to the current electrification.
  • Lancaster/Hest Bank to Morecambe
  • Salford Crescent/Bolton to Wigan & Southport
  • Manchester Victoria & Guide Bridge to Stalybridge
  • Warrington to Chester
  • Crewe to Holyhead/Llandudno
  • Guide Bridge/Ashburys to Rose Hill & Chinley
  • Hazel Grove to Buxton

I am sure others could come up with even more options, but I am sure that which ever short sited Government we have, do not have the forsight to plan these thing properly.

An idea that I am sure you would approve of

Manchester Victoria to Ashburys/Gorton with electrification.

Basic option is to blitz Ashburys to create a platform 3 and offer an option to set back trains terminating there.

Enhanced option involves running through Ashbury creating platform 3 and 4 and terminating in a bay at Gorton. Creates several opportunities including an enhanced case for a Manchester City Railway Station, an easy way of dispensing with EMU's sitting parked in Man Vic for only 3 miles of electrification post the existing projects. In addition, new service can be run to Hadfield and Glossop. They can also continue to Rose Hill/Marple if that electrification project of 11 miles or so (which I personally think is a real missing link and should sit at the top of the list with the number of Pacers it will release) is undertaken as well.

Keeps Picc cleared and moves stopping services out of the way of TPE services.

A further enhancement might be to restore the old curve that runs to the western side of Ardwick Depot to shift through EMT and Northern services to the correct side of the station and terminate North Wales ATW services.
 

Nym

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Well what I hope is that they do this electrification properly, and will electrify short section past junctions which would make electrifing those line easier in the furture. If this or infact any Government, had a logical, well though out national Electrification plan, then many of the lines in the North West would have been electrified by now.

Farnworth tunnels, the track bed can be lowered and it is possible to electrify through them. What is really needed is for the North West Electrification to be logically extended.

The following line should be added to the current electrification.
  • Lancaster/Hest Bank to Morecambe
  • Salford Crescent/Bolton to Wigan & Southport
  • Manchester Victoria & Guide Bridge to Stalybridge
  • Warrington to Chester
  • Crewe to Holyhead/Llandudno
  • Guide Bridge/Ashburys to Rose Hill & Chinley
  • Hazel Grove to Buxton

I am sure others could come up with even more options, but I am sure that which ever short sited Government we have, do not have the forsight to plan these thing properly.

Not Wigan - Kirby (as 3rd Rail) and use DV Stock into Manchester?

Half hourly (albeit slow) Liverpool Central - Kirby - Wigan - Manchester (1tph)
 

Anvil1984

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Nah I wouldnt put DC into Manchester, would rather do the often suggested thing and terminate the extended DCs at Wigan, preferably the bay nut DC the other Wallgarw platforms in case of fault
 

Anvil1984

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Yeah sorry, dont often see Dual Volatage shortened down (my excuse and sticking to it), still wouldnt run that as one long through service though would rather hive the Wigan to Liverpoolto be officially under Merseyrail and Wigan - Manchester to remain Northern
 

Whistler40145

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Network Rail should be Electrifying Wigan North Western-Huyton, Wigan North Western-Bolton & Wigan North Western-Salford Crescent

Also, rebuild & electrify Chord connecting Bamfurlong to Wigan-Liverpool line as a diversion route if Earlestown is shut?
 

DavidL

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Does anyone know whether the trackbed of St Helens Central to St Helens Junction has been built on?

It hasn't, and as of my last email to the council, the land remains protected for railway use.
However, the same correspondence outlined that there are no plans to restore the link as there is no sufficient business case.
As I understand it, there are 2 structures towards the sutton end that would require upgrading or renewing to take traffic again.
I think track is still extant as far as the the old Hays works (from central), and points at central were renewed with the last track renewal, though the nearby bridge has recently been fenced off across the track.

David
 

Nym

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Google maps be your friend. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...2749,-2.717357&spn=0.019529,0.038581&t=h&z=15

As far as I can see, no, I can see how it could be useful for when HS2 gets joined in or that section of line is closed, other than that, any loop services would be either Wigan based (for junction layouts) reverse twice, or just be a tad silly. What you getting at for re-opening it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Network Rail should be Electrifying Wigan North Western-Huyton, Wigan North Western-Bolton & Wigan North Western-Salford Crescent

Also, rebuild & electrify Chord connecting Bamfurlong to Wigan-Liverpool line as a diversion route if Earlestown is shut?

Platt Bridge - Huyton is being done...

Lostock Jcn - Wigan Stn Jcns. isn't being done, but it should be

And if the current service patterns remain, electrifying Salford Crescent - Hindley in addition to the above would be a tad pointless unless the Kirby and Southport services where curtailed to Wigan Wallgate, or the wires extended to Southport.

They should be electrifying the routes best suited, and at the moment, under current service patterns, Lostock - Wigan Stn. Jcns. is a much better option than Salford Crescent - Hindley - Wigan Stn Jcns.

However, if the current services via Atherton are all curtailed to Wigan NW or Wallgate, then electrification of this section would close a diesel island, but Lostock - Hindley - Wigan Stns should be done first.

The whole idea of electrification is to change as many diesel diagrams as possible to electric for the last amount of track miles to be electrified (and also where capacity needs improving, eg: Bolton - Farnworth - Windsor Bridge.

Currently, as previously stated, only 3tph through Bolton (if scottish services remain to be diverted via the Chat Moss) can be re-diagramed as electric.

If Lostock - Wigan where also wired (a distance of about 8 miles, I do stand to be corrected on this!) that would improve to be 5tph, removing 4 diesel diagrams from the schedule. But also opening a major diversionary route for Electric Rolling Stock.

An alternative could be to divert the Victoria - Kirby and Victoria - Southport services to run via Bolton and then electify the route via Atherton (and the branch to Leigh).

This would mean that everything that runs past Wigan would run via Bolton and Westhaughton, a time increase that could be compensated by only stopping services at Bolton, Lostock, Westhaughton and 1 or 2tph (out of 3) at Hindley.

Idealy, both of these would be done and the 3rd rail to Southport extended as far as Wigan Wallgate (We're receving dual voltage stock anyway more than likely), same goes for Omskirk - Preston.

Another alternative would be to electrify via Lostock, cut the Manchester - Kirby service at Wallgate, and run the MCV & MIA - Southport services both via Atherton. Then all but two of the services through Bolton would be electric.

There are a great deal of options available, idealy both routes would be electrified. But as a starter I would say that Lostock - Wigan would be a good starter, and allow the current service pattern to remain broadly similar, and have addtional services inserted in there without too much hassle, as pathing on the Atherton route is much easyer than on the Bolton route, the more electrics run that way the better as it would reduce delays, and improve capacity in the peaks.
 

WatcherZero

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What looks like it will happen based on aspirations and published strategies though perhaps a decade and a half away from full implementation would be Manchester-Kirby service curtailed at Wallgate and Kirby-Wallgate becoming a shuttle service with eventually 3rd Rail extended to Wallgate and the shuttle eliminated. All southport services (2tph) would go via Bolton instead of one going via Atherton but it would continue to be non-electrified.

Wigan-Manchester via Atherton resignalled, wired at either low (cheaper) or high (diversionary routes/extra service potential) voltage and track renewed where neccesary to become a tram-train 'rapid transit' express tram service with higher frequency (4 or 5tph depending on length vs frequency economics) and paired with a line from the east of the conurbation to have a cross city centre service.

Manchester to Wigan via Bolton 2tph electric via Lostock-Wigan electrification

Finally 3tph Liverpool-Manchester via Wigan on the Chat Moss line, there would also be another 2tph Manchester-Liverpool directs.


That all eliminates everything diesel except the Southport service which I imagine will be a long time before the economics make it viable to wire.
 
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bluenoxid

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That all eliminates everything diesel except the Southport service which I imagine will be a long time before the economics make it viable to wire.

It depends if the Burscough curves are reinstated. If they are, it cuts a significant chunk of the mileage off if Ormskirks are run to Southport. This then makes Southport a significant terminus and ideal to send trains to rather than dropping at Wigan.

It is only 15 miles to Southport. People are suggesting Buxton and Chinley for wires
 

WatcherZero

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I doubt there would be any more demand for Southport services from Manchester that lengthening wouldnt fix, it adds a lot of service potential in the Liverpool-Southport-Preston triangle though. As I understand it its only proposed to add curves to Southport from both sides of the Ormskirk-Preston line. Its a pity they wouldnt add a curve from Wigan to Ormskirk though as Im sure there would be demand for at least 1tph to Ormskirk (probably two in peak) due to the high number of people who live in Wigan and work in Ormskirk and vice versa though it doesnt really need a third and even slower than via Kirkby route to Liverpool there might be some limited demand from the communities en route. Wouldnt be any point in adding a curve to Preston however other than for diversionary route (with I imagine a pretty poor RC number).

Thing is I believe that Southport-Wigan/Ormskirk-Preston should be done as 25kv this is the sort of place where DV trains would be useful on the Merseyrail network though.

Also sadly though an as the crow flies route even if you had 3rd rail from Liverpool-Preston it would still be faster to go via the WCML due to higher line speeds especielly post electification and Huyton junction improvement.
 
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Nym

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What looks like it will happen based on aspirations and published strategies though perhaps a decade and a half away from full implementation would be Manchester-Kirby service curtailed at Wallgate and Kirby-Wallgate becoming a shuttle service with eventually 3rd Rail extended to Wallgate and the shuttle eliminated. All southport services (2tph) would go via Bolton instead of one going via Atherton but it would continue to be non-electrified.

Wigan-Manchester via Atherton resignalled, wired at either low (cheaper) or high (diversionary routes/extra service potential) voltage and track renewed where neccesary to become a tram-train 'rapid transit' express tram service with higher frequency (4 or 5tph depending on length vs frequency economics) and paired with a line from the east of the conurbation to have a cross city centre service.

Manchester to Wigan via Bolton 2tph electric via Lostock-Wigan electrification

Finally 3tph Liverpool-Manchester via Wigan on the Chat Moss line, there would also be another 2tph Manchester-Liverpool directs.


That all eliminates everything diesel except the Southport service which I imagine will be a long time before the economics make it viable to wire.

Splitting Manchester - Kirby at Wallgate yes.

(Assuming via Atherton and Via Westhaughton both wired, or neither wired)

4tph Rochdale - Wigan, 2 via Atherton and 2 via Bolton?

Southports both via Bolton yes, but, they'd need to fit into the half hourly sections, no point in having two southport trains coming within 15mins of eachother.
If neither via Atherton or via Westhaughton gets wired any time soon, the all stations Victoria - Bolton needs to be diverted or curtailed, this service needs to be electric or we're still going to be throwing away paths into Manchester.

Wigan via Atherton: What do you mean by low or high voltage?

If you actually mean low voltage, are you proposing 6.25KV-AC OHL for the line? or 750V-DC (I'm sure GMPTE's tramcentric way of thinking would like this)?

The cheaper ways to do it are smaller transformers that cannot provide as much POWER as larger ones, and to have lower tension setups for lower linespeeds. If this where done I suspect it would use the same feeder stations as Salford West Jcn / Ordstall Lane Jcn - Bolton - Chorley - Exton Jcn. Possibly with the addition of one or two feeder stations at either Hindley or Wigan (Hindley being the logical choice) .

Now, for via Atherton, a linespeed of 75 is perfectly fine, this isn't too expensive on the tension setup, via Lostock it might be worth looking at 90 all the way to Wigan Stn Jcn. with 60 or 75 at Junctions or tight curves, but again, this is more signalling than wire tensions aswell.

If Salford West / Ordstall Lane - Preston via Bolton is done with a feeder station at Lostock Junction (where yes, there is space) or Horwich Parkway, where theres even more, and a massive grid supply already in place. It's possible that wires could be strung up to Wigan from Lostock without any other feeder stations or other associated infestructure (that causes a lot of the costs), but it would then be limited by how many electrified trains could run on that section, say, Bolton - Chorley & Wigan (at a pure guess).

Lastly, Manchester - Liverpool via Wigan & Chat Moss... What? No-one is going to sit on a train that long and get overtaken by another service to get to Liverpool so it would be better to simply have the Manchester - Scotland hourlys call at Wigan NW and have an opersite half hour train express from Victoria to Wigan NW to fill in the gap and make it half hourly, this would yeild (if Southports are diverted via Bolton) 7 or 8tph Wigan - Manchester.

Newton-Le-Willows - Wigan NW is ~10mins, 3min turnround then another 10mins...?
 

tbtc

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That all eliminates everything diesel except the Southport service which I imagine will be a long time before the economics make it viable to wire

I think a half hourly frequency is enough to justify electrification, especially when the line from Manchester Airport to Bolton will already be wired
 

WatcherZero

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Its 30km to wire for only 2tph, I dont think the economics would stack up yet. Lostocks a 1/3rd of that so probably viable.

Atherton line main problem is the headways which NR thinks arent cost effective to improve. I could see TfGM taking it on electrifying it and resignalling doubling frequency as part of the phase out of Pacers.

2 via Wigan more likely than 3 sorry, the Hub proposes 6 Liverpool-Manchester, 4 fasts and two slows and 4 Wigan-Liverpools via St Helens two fast and two slows on top of the Scotland services.
 

Gareth

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For the Kirkby-Wallgate line, I'd personally extend Merseyrail to a new triangle junction at Rainford. Here, both Merseyrail & Northern services from Wallgate would head north to terminate at Skelmersdale. It's ridiculous that Skem doesn't have a rail connection.
 

Nym

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I've done some more maths, and I know you all dread this, but here goes...

Windsor Bridge Junction to Crow Nest Junction = 12mi76ch
Lostock Junction to Crow Nest Junction = 3mi59ch
Crow Nest Junction to Wigan Wallgate = 3mi10ch

So... Assuming taking either via Atherton or via Bolton will take off two diesels to become electric, via Bolton would require only 6 miles and 69 chains of track to be electrified. Via Atherton would require 16 miles and 6 chains to be wired up, to remove the same amount of diesel diagrams to electric, so logically would cost half as much, aswell as being closer to feeder stations and proberbly not needing any additional ones, 5tph through Bolton would then be able to become elecric, with much easyer diversions while still being able to serve Bolton, as if there was a diversion that couldn't use Bolton it would then be able to be routed via the Chat Moss.

That would take off 4 diagrams for 6mi 69ch, so looking at this very basically,

Diagrams converted per mile wired: 0.5828 under current service patterns.

Now, the route via Bolton in addition to via Chat moss gave us...

For 24mi 38ch the following routes change to electric operation:

Manchester Airport - Blackpool North (4 diagrams)
Victoria - Blackpool North (4 diagrams)
Preston - Hazel Grove (4 diagrams)

All the above have been worked out with 'slack timetabling'

But that yeilds 0.4902 diagrams per mile electrified, assuming the line into victoria and piccadilly from ordstall lane is completed as part of the chat moss project.

And the diesel under wires ratio is about the same aswell, (and I have also assumed that PRE - BPN is already completed in that calculation)

So in terms of diesel displacment, Lostock - Wigan has a good case.

Combining the two...
(16 diagrams for 31mi27ch)
Gives a ratio of: 0.5106, now from what the goverment is showing previously, anything it seems that if two miles has to be wired to remove 1 diagram, that this is worthwile, so by that logic, Lostock - Wigan should be completed, and if the Atherton loop is increased to 3tph, then that has a suficent case aswell. (This assumes plain track and doesn't take into account orquard tunnels) that LOT - Wigan doesn't have.
 
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