Northwest Electrification Projects

[Whistler40145]

Can TOC(S) part-fund with Network Rail the Salford Crescent-Wigan line Electrification?

 

[Nym]

Yes, or GMPTE could, but that would mean funding somthing that wasn't Metrolink...

 

[Whistler40145]

Is Wigan-St Helens Central-Huyton being electrified?

 

[ukrob]

Is Wigan-St Helens Central-Huyton being electrified?

Yes, it is.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks ukrob

Why did the press only announce that via Earlestown was being wired & not via St Helens Central?

 

[Nym]

Because it was initally only going to be the Chat Moss but the other routes via St Helens, Bolton & Chorley and Preston - Blackpool N where later added.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will Network Rail upgrade the spur @ Bamfurlong to enable it's use for diverted Liverpool-Euston Pendolinos if both Liverpool-Earlestown & Liverpool-Crewe are shut?

 

[Nym]

Possibly, it does seem like a sensible bit of infill... But we'll have to wait and see until we can get hold of detailed NR plans.

 

[Whistler40145]

Nym

With sufficient groundwork, could a Double Track Spur be built @ Bamfurlong with increased speed limit?

 

[Nym]

The loop from WCML Northbound to Wigan - St Helens SW Bound, thats already 2 track, and for such a short loop any increases in linespeed wouldn't make much diference, and wouldn't really be possible due to a massive cant difficency for the loop.

And a spur to where?

Most of the trackbeds around the area are still intact...

 

[Whistler40145]

Sorry, I meant the spur which leaves the WCML @ Bamfurlong & joins the Wigan-Liverpool Line, currently this is single track & very low speed.

Rebuild this single line spur as Double Track & increase linespeed.

 

[Nym]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=53....3.521227,-2.612858&spn=0.014084,0.055189&z=14

This one?

 

[ukrob]

If that is the curve being talked about then I see no reason for any work on it really? Is it even used?

It is highly unlikely that Liverpool - Crewe and Liverpool - Earlestown would both be closed at the same time. Besides which, you can't keep route knowledge for all crew on every single conceivable route - you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Nym]

Electrify it, yes, anything else, no point really, linespeed is already 20mph and I can't see it getting any quicker. It's also already 2 track

 

[Whistler40145]

I remember doing this curve on a diverted Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road, on a blasted Class 142 Pacer. It then took the WCML south & then via Eccles.

It could be an emergency connection for use by Northern services?

 

[Nym]

Well, put simply in the terms of this project of electrification, it would be silly not to electrify the branch. But we'll just have to see if it comes about.

Personally I think that not electrifying via Westhaughton is also silly aswell...

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern RUS final edition has now been published, theres not many changes from the draft, mainly updating of electrification assumptions, Ordsall Chord early approval rammifications and incorporating some feedback that they didnt examine crowding along the length of some lines only in and out of the major hubs.

Anyway I will only point out changes.

Atherton Line Gap
No changes

Bolton Line Gap

Bolton line, previously said no station interventions required now says that platforms may POSSIBLY need to be lengthened at the following stations.
l Blackrod (lengthening from five to six-car)
l Westhoughton (lengthening from five to six-car)
l Hindley (lengthening from five to six-car)
l Meols Cop (lengthening from five to six-car)
l Parbold (lengthening one platform from five to six-car)
l Appley Bridge (lengthening from four to six-car).

Factors in that Scotland services may not return to the Bolton line now, three scenarios worked up:
1. After Chat Moss but before Bolton electrification, Scotland services via Wigan
2. From full electrification to 2023/4 with Scotland services returning to Bolton
3. From full electrification to 2023/4 with Scotland services not returning to Bolton

TfGM analysis of GM passenger flows has told them that normal service levels should be maintained but one service could be removed from the high peak timetable so long as it didnt cause overcrowding and the Wigan-Manchester fast will abstract some Wigan-Manchester passengers from the Bolton line so crowding will probably be managable. On the other hand theyve realised that this abstraction would mean services Manchester-Wigan-Preston (Scotland services inadvertently now serving two commuter flows) may become quite crowded (particularly friday night evening peak people leaving Manchester and people heading north of Lancaster at weekends) and services on this route would have to be longer than the four car previous assumption.

It also suggests two changes which would create a new Preston path on the Bolton line would be diversion of the Southport service from Man Air to Man Vic and retiming the Blackburn service.

The Windermere/Barrow-Carnforth diesel island issue that some people on this board have identified has now been considered by NR. Since services could no longer join with Blackpool services it was assumed they would become diesel shuttles from Preston with the existing services terminating there. Six economic appraisels were done on running the Barrow services under the wires, cutting them back to diesel shuttle services from Preston as planned, running them as shuttles with a direct under the wires every other hour to Man Vic or Man Air or Hazel Grove.

All extensions of the Barrow shuttle beyond Preston had positive BCR factoring in economic benefits but under 1, so none were endorsed. However extending an existing Man Air-Preston EMU service to run to Barrow once per hour as a DMU had an extremely high BCR, it didnt suggest which service would be converted. Later it goes on to leave the solution to this problem to the next Franchisee to solve, saying further studies need to be done.

Manchester Piccadilly Gap
The approval of Ordall Chord renders all previous draft thinking irrelevent, however two extra platforms are still needed to really capitalise on the benefits.

Manchester Airport
Cost estimate for fourth platform seems to have increased from 16m in 2009 to 23m in 2010, revenue estimates and other benefits have increased but still BCR fallen from 2.3 to 2.0. Still reccomends the work as essential if trains longer than four cars operate routinely on the Bolton line post electrification.

Leeds-Manchester Gap
Stands by previous assessment but agrees with consultation feedback that Leeds from Huddersfield and Dewsbury services may outgrow capacity. However since the draft was published the government approved the first three Manchester Hub improvements which affect these services as follows.

The two services per hour between Manchester Airport and destinations east of Leeds via Manchester Piccadilly will run via Manchester Piccadilly Platforms 13 and 14, the Ordsall Chord and Manchester Victoria l the hourly service between Liverpool and
destinations east of Leeds via Manchester Piccadilly will be diverted via the Chat Moss
route and Manchester Victoria and will not call at Manchester Piccadilly

The hourly service from Manchester Piccadilly to destinations east of Leeds to start at
Liverpool Lime Street and run via the Chat Moss and Manchester Victoria and will not call at Manchester Piccadilly

Two additional services running between Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds, resulting in six
north cross-Pennine trains per hour

Faster journey times between Manchester and Leeds as the Manchester Victoria route is shorter than that to Manchester Piccadilly which should also benefit longer distance journeys on these services (eg Newcastle to Manchester)

Further improvements are therefore no longer neccesary.

Sheffield Gap
Previously the Draft had reccomended lenthening on the Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes route to meet capacity demands, however since then the East Midlands Rus has been published which reccomended the immediate lengthening of Liverpool-Norwich services from 2011 and the Dft provided the money to East Midlands trains to do so. This would satisfy some demand on the Sheffield corridor and required a reappraisal of the investment however the previsouly suggesting lengthening is still reccomended.

Pennistone line
No change

Freight
No change

Ilkey, Skipton and Wakefield
No Change

Leeds
Two extra services from Ordsall Chord improvements remove the need for the previously suggested one extra Manchester service.

Major rejig of the Leeds station improvement costs because the extra timetabled and lengthend trains going forward post Ordsall Chord/other improvements is radically different to predicted lengthened services based on todays timetable, therefore the service interactions with the station are different and this has increased service costs from £395m to £524m while infrastructure improvement costs remains the same.

Strategic connectivity across the north of England
No Change

Crowding on services into non-HLOS towns and cities
*New* Examined the effects of electrification on crowding in non hubs, namely Middlesbrough, Hull, Preston-Colne and the Cumbrian Coast. The only identified issue was on the Cumbrian coast where the report now reccomends lengthening of the two Barrow-Lancaster diagrams from single car DMU's to two car DMU's.

Finally theres a new blurb explaining the PTE's role in providing free car parking in the strategy section. New section 6.7 which breaks down strategic improvements by corridor.

 

[tbtc]

Northern RUS final edition has now been published

Cheers for posting.

Everything mentioned looks fairly positive, but it is very biased to Greater Manchester. Still, every little helps...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern RUS final edition has now been
Finally theres a new blurb explaining the PTE's role in providing free car parking in the strategy section. New section 6.7 which breaks down strategic improvements by corridor.

I know that you have given very detailed analysis in the past of National Rail documents for forum members, which is good for those who are not privy to such information.

Have you seen the May 2011 version of:-
Network RUS : Passenger Rolling Stock (Draft for consultation 94 pp)

If you have, can you comment please. I am finding it somewhat hard going in reading through it, since I received my copy from London earlier this week.

 

[WatcherZero]

We went over it a bit in the long running Pacer replacement thread and touched on one of the ideas it raised in the thread with a title something like 'all new carriages to be 23m'.

 

[ukrob]

I'm not entirely sure why you have to 'receive your copy from London'.

For future reference they are all publicly accessible, and available here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4449.aspx

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not entirely sure why you have to 'receive your copy from London'.

For future reference they are all publicly accessible, and available here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4449.aspx

I am well aware of the link that you have been so kind to quote and it was the use of that link that has led to my particular problem. Because the web site can only download A5 size sheets, not everyone, and I suppose your good self, has perfect eyesight. I am near 70 than 60 in age terms and need an A4 sized copy to read the print. National Rail, at 90 York Way, London, knowing my eyesight problem, have kindly posted A4 size double sided documents to me.

I trust that I have answered your query to your satisfaction.

 

[ukrob]

I am well aware of the link that you have been so kind to quote and it was the use of that link that has led to my particular problem. Because the web site can only download A5 size sheets, not everyone, and I suppose your good self, has perfect eyesight. I am near 70 than 60 in age terms and need an A4 sized copy to read the print. National Rail, at 90 York Way, London, knowing my eyesight problem, have kindly posted A4 size double sided documents to me.

I trust that I have answered your query to your satisfaction.

You can print it (or view it on screen) whatever size you want.

And no, I don't have perfect eyesight.

Getting a bit fed up of [the style of your] replies in many threads - especially when people are just trying to help.

 

[tbtc]

We went over it a bit in the long running Pacer replacement thread and touched on one of the ideas it raised in the thread with a title something like 'all new carriages to be 23m'.

...with the exception of the 26m coaches for IEP...

Yup, I remember that thread, fairly recent IIRC?

 

[lancastrian]

Well this thread has developed in many interesting ways, but lets get back on topic. As I may well have said before, while it is great to see the lines proposed to be electrified being actually done, I personally feel that it does not go far enough.

The wires should not stop at both Manchester Victoria & Piccadilly, but they should be extended over the pennines through Huddersfiled and Leeds to York and on to Scarborough. The Leeds to Hull line should be done as well, on the Southern route, the wire shpould be extended, through Sheffieldand Doncaster, through to Gilberdyke, to meet the wires to Hull from Leeds, and then from Thorne to Cleethorpes.

In the North West, the line from Salford Crescent through to Wigan North Western and the link from Lostock Junction to Hindley. As well as the infill lines kirkham to Blackpool South, and the branches from Lancaster to Morecambe, Carnforth to Barrow and Oxenholme to Windermere.

Pie in the sky proberbly, but that does not invalidate the need for these lines to be electrified,

 

[tbtc]

Well this thread has developed in many interesting ways, but lets get back on topic. As I may well have said before, while it is great to see the lines proposed to be electrified being actually done, I personally feel that it does not go far enough.

The wires should not stop at both Manchester Victoria & Piccadilly, but they should be extended over the pennines through Huddersfiled and Leeds to York and on to Scarborough. The Leeds to Hull line should be done as well, on the Southern route, the wire shpould be extended, through Sheffieldand Doncaster, through to Gilberdyke, to meet the wires to Hull from Leeds, and then from Thorne to Cleethorpes.

In the North West, the line from Salford Crescent through to Wigan North Western and the link from Lostock Junction to Hindley. As well as the infill lines kirkham to Blackpool South, and the branches from Lancaster to Morecambe, Carnforth to Barrow and Oxenholme to Windermere.

Pie in the sky proberbly, but that does not invalidate the need for these lines to be electrified,

I agree that its good but that more will need done.

One of the problems I have (when trying to suggest realstic service patterns post electrification) is that you could have a lot of electric services from the western side of Manchester, but none on the east side of Victoria.

Logically I'd suggest that the next Mancunian electrification should be the Caldervale line to Leeds. Partly because you could "save" a dozen DMUs (would mean diverting the Leeds - Blackpool service via Dewsbury/Brighouse). I think that has a better case than some of the less frequent routes elsewhere.

Still, what we have is a start and hopefully it'll lead to a virtual circle of further electrification (encouraging to see Chester referred to)

 

[lancastrian]

I agree that its good but that more will need done.

One of the problems I have (when trying to suggest realstic service patterns post electrification) is that you could have a lot of electric services from the western side of Manchester, but none on the east side of Victoria.

Logically I'd suggest that the next Mancunian electrification should be the Caldervale line to Leeds. Partly because you could "save" a dozen DMUs (would mean diverting the Leeds - Blackpool service via Dewsbury/Brighouse). I think that has a better case than some of the less frequent routes elsewhere.

Still, what we have is a start and hopefully it'll lead to a virtual circle of further electrification (encouraging to see Chester referred to)

I know that in a previous set of posts that some one here suggested that the wires be extended east of Victoria to both Rochdale & Stalybridge, with the Guide Bridge to Stalybridge line being wired also.

Although I did not mentioned it there is the east lancashire line from preston to Colne as well. If this was wired up from where it leaves the West Coast Main Line, by where Bee Lane Signal Box was, through to Colne. Also the line from Gannow Junction through Burnley will need to be redoubled and the line from Colne to Skipton reinstated as double track and electrified as well.

For some really daft reason the politicans in this country only ever to consider electrifing lines on an individual basis, they never seem to consider the Rail network in totality. What this means is that you have many line radiating from London that are electrified but very few cross country routes, which means that almost all the frieght in this country is desiel hauled. Scotland seems to have the right idea.

 

[Bevan Price]

If that is the curve being talked about then I see no reason for any work on it really? Is it even used?

It is highly unlikely that Liverpool - Crewe and Liverpool - Earlestown would both be closed at the same time. Besides which, you can't keep route knowledge for all crew on every single conceivable route - you have to draw the line somewhere.

Ince Moss curve is used by Lindsey (Immingham) - Ravenhead (Pilkington's) oil service which used to be weekly, but now only runs about every 6 to 8 weeks. No other regular booked traffic that I know of.

Bevan

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Logically I'd suggest that the next Mancunian electrification should be the Caldervale line to Leeds. Partly because you could "save" a dozen DMUs (would mean diverting the Leeds - Blackpool service via Dewsbury/Brighouse). I think that has a better case than some of the less frequent routes elsewhere.

I note that you make mention of the Caldervale route going via Brighouse to Leeds, which is a direct route these days. But by going through Brighouse, you will cut out Bradford Interchange. Was that to prevent the need for reversal at Bradford? Surely it would also be useful also to electrify the line from Milner Royd junction through Dryclough junction, carrying on via Halifax to Bradford.

There is much in the way of case argument about the relative rights and benefits to either the west or to the east sides of the Pennines, when discussing North-South routes, but there is the matter of cross-Pennine electrification is one that seems logical to people on both sides of the Pennines, but has been very late in coming even to the discussion stage.

 

[WatcherZero]

What we are getting in the Lancashire triangle is essentially the lines which can be done on the cheap, high frequency and relativley low cost. Dont think their just being done first because the government thinks their more important. Trickle down economics make each neighbouring line more cost effective to do as parts of them get indirectly electrified and the work to do shrinks. A Transpennine route electrification is probably still a decade away from being approved when other lines offer much more bang for the buck.