Northern's upcoming plans

[Some guy]

With the 4 car 331s coming West I think It will be interesting to see what routes they end up on.

Only route I can think they may end up on is Stoke stoppers on Sundays, as those are already pathed as 331s but are currently 323 operated.

Blackpool to Liverpool most likely that’s what they was used on when they first entered service

 

[Kite159]

Blackpool to Liverpool most likely that’s what they was used on when they first entered service

Hopefully by then Wigan - Liverpool stoppers would be back to 2tph (along with the semifast)

Otherwise I can see those 4 coach units being cosy from Wigan, leaving passengers behind at St Helens due to the current timetable where the 2 Liverpool trains an hour are close together.

 

[yorksrob]

Bogs! Back in the day almost every station had two of them, ladies and gents, and mainline trains had them too, but not on some of the lines now served by 195s. Bogs were simple things but today the simple size of the retention tank makes the provision inadequate. It's not an exclusively 195 thing. It can even apply to expensively overhauled heritage stock on long rail tours too.

But after that digression, I can say that a 6 coach weekend 195 instead of a 2 coach Pacer has my vote whatever the seats may be like. Still euphoric on the second day of realistic capacity being provided on the Hope Valley line. Non rail enthusiast travellers mostly love them. Today I saw something I'd never seen before at a weekend. The wheelchair ramp being deployed with ease and plenty of space for the chair and accompanying family on the train. When word gets round all the newly provided space will very soon fill up. It was doing already yesterday morning.

That said Greater Anglia's 755s have the edge for me with level access from platforms like this one and being bi-mode. I haven't been on one long enough to judge seating.

Taken at Dore & Totley.

April 2022- an issue with bike and wheelchair access at 6 car length on 4 car platforms. July 2019 - guard reaching for handset to ask everyone to move up, then she had to squeeze back in.

View attachment 113556 View attachment 113557

Glad to hear that provision is still improving on the Hope Valley stopper.

I can't help but notice that your past picture was of the dreaded Merseyrail pacer to further illustrate the point !

 

[py_megapixel]

With the 4 car 331s coming West I think It will be interesting to see what routes they end up on.

At some point in the distant past, 4 cars were planned for Glossop/Hadfield. The capacity is probably also warranted on the Crewe - Manchester circuits (I think they usually do a Crewe-Manchester via Stockport and return, followed by a Crewe-Manchester-Liverpool via Airport and return, and repeat).

Sunday Stoke stoppers probably need the full 6 cars really considering how infrequent they are.

Only route I can think they may end up on is Stoke stoppers on Sundays, as those are already pathed as 331s but are currently 323 operated.

Technically, they're pathed as an electric locomotive hauling 331 tonnes. A bit of creative (or possibly mistaken) data entry there!

 

[Greybeard33]

The capacity is probably also warranted on the Crewe - Manchester circuits (I think they usually do a Crewe-Manchester via Stockport and return, followed by a Crewe-Manchester-Liverpool via Airport and return, and repeat).

From December the Crewe services via both routes are to start from Piccadilly main shed (the Liverpool via Chat Moss stopper will start from the Airport). I do not think the Crewe services will interwork with each other at Piccadilly - the timings do not match. There might be some interworking with the Stoke service if the same type of unit is used. I seem to remember that used to happen with the 323s before the May 2018 timetable recast.

Edit: But the Crewe services will continue to interwork at Crewe, as @Dspatula has pointed out below.

 

[507020]

From December the Crewe services via both routes are to start from Piccadilly main shed (the Liverpool via Chat Moss stopper will start from the Airport). I do not think the Crewe services will interwork with each other at Piccadilly - the timings do not match. There might be some interworking with the Stoke service if the same type of unit is used. I seem to remember that used to happen with the 323s before the May 2018 timetable recast.

Does this mean the Styal line will get 2tph all stops? Will the service from Piccadilly reverse at the airport or run through to Styal via the original route? The Alderley Edge service will also start from the main shed rather than inexplicably from Southport. Presumably all of these will be 323s, with the 319s leaving and some 6 cars when the other 323s arrive.

 

[Greybeard33]

Does this mean the Styal line will get 2tph all stops?

Yes.

Will the service from Piccadilly reverse at the airport or run through to Styal via the original route?

Reverse at the airport. The draft timetables can be downloaded from

December 2022 timetable - Manchester area

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

The Alderley Edge service will also start from the main shed rather than inexplicably from Southport. Presumably all of these will be 323s, with the 319s leaving and some 6 cars when the other 323s arrive.

I believe that some of the platforms on the Crewe line are too short for 6-car 323s. Hence the speculation above that the 4-car 331s might be used.

 

[td97]

Taken at Dore & Totley.

April 2022- an issue with bike and wheelchair access at 6 car length on 4 car platforms.

To be extended to 152m (6x24m) as part of Hope Valley upgrade. And the new P2 will be of equal length.

 

[Killingworth]

To be extended to 152m (6x24m) as part of Hope Valley upgrade. And the new P2 will be of equal length.

Probably ready for use by about July 2023 if all goes to plan and better services by May 2024, with maybe some minor improvements in December 2023.

 

[CJ]

From December the Crewe services via both routes are to start from Piccadilly main shed (the Liverpool via Chat Moss stopper will start from the Airport). I do not think the Crewe services will interwork with each other at Piccadilly - the timings do not match. There might be some interworking with the Stoke service if the same type of unit is used. I seem to remember that used to happen with the 323s before the May 2018 timetable recast.

Yes, I believe that was the case (at least from my memory). I seem to remember pre-2018 timetable that there was a Crewe - Manchester (via Airport) service that was extended to go to Deansgate in the peak (which then went to Trafford Park/Manchester United FC to reverse to operate the Deansgate - Stoke peak service), the Stoke - Manchester service then became a Manchester - Crewe via Airport service (with an ECS coming in from Longsight to cover the next Manchester - Stoke service).

 

[Dspatula]

Couple of things I think are of note on subject this,

The original number of quoted 3 car 331s moving east was 16 and can’t be more than 17 otherwise there won’t be enough EMUs in the west.

Blackpool and Victoria depots aren’t trained on 323s.

Crewe services are interworked at the Crewe end.

Currently no work to extend any platforms has occurred or is being done at the moment as far as I am aware.

On that note, going by the sectional appendix and assuming Salwick is dropped as a stop, 15 individual platforms need lengthening to accommodate 323s on the Blackpool Manchester Airport line.

24 individual platforms would require lengthening on the Chat Moss assuming the Bank Quay and Airport trains are still interworked. I believe there is a commitment already to do Newton and Lea Green for TPE. Doing Exton would also allow 323s on the Liverpool Blackpool.

2 car 195 makes sense with the limit to train lengths at platforms in Wigan and Leeds. Should be just about enough to have almost every train on the Calder Valley as a 4 car 195. Also it would mean no more 158s on the west side.

Not sure if it’s been mentioned elsewhere but there’s also a plan to add around 30 trains worth of space to the Manchester international depot for Northern.

 

[507020]

Couple of things I think are of note on subject this,

The original number of quoted 3 car 331s moving east was 16 and can’t be more than 17 otherwise there won’t be enough EMUs in the west.

Blackpool and Victoria depots aren’t trained on 323s.

Crewe services are interworked at the Crewe end.

Currently no work to extend any platforms has occurred or is being done at the moment as far as I am aware.

On that note, going by the sectional appendix and assuming Salwick is dropped as a stop, 15 individual platforms need lengthening to accommodate 323s on the Blackpool Manchester Airport line.

24 individual platforms would require lengthening on the Chat Moss assuming the Bank Quay and Airport trains are still interworked. I believe there is a commitment already to do Newton and Lea Green for TPE. Doing Exton would also allow 323s on the Liverpool Blackpool.

2 car 195 makes sense with the limit to train lengths at platforms in Wigan and Leeds. Should be just about enough to have almost every train on the Calder Valley as a 4 car 195. Also it would mean no more 158s on the west side.

Not sure if it’s been mentioned elsewhere but there’s also a plan to add around 30 trains worth of space to the Manchester international depot for Northern.

Wigan depot is not trained on 323s either. Would Salwick then only be a stop on Blackpool South Diesels?

NLW and Lea Green platform lengthening to 5 car for TPE would be the bare minimum. The main issue is the Roby and Huyton islands in the middle of a 4 track alignment.

Ince, Hindley and Westhoughton were being lengthened in Wigan (Bolton) area for 6 car 323s, but when I passed through there little was apparent that had been done, beyond devegetation which was completed months ago. Piling doesn’t look to have commenced either.

What is wrong with 158s on the Calder Valley, or the west side generally? They occasionally still reach Southport and one ran Ormskirk - Preston on Grand National day. There are also still 150s Kirkby - Blackburn.

 

[gc4946]

It was issued on Today's Rail (243) reguarding Northerns stock plans which is expected to be compleated by the end of this decade as follow.

The Sprinters are expected to be phased out between 2026-2029, while the 158 will also go but likely to be the last of its type to leave. Nothing has been mention about the 170 except that they ''Will be able to continue through the 2030's as will the 333''. I won't be surprised if any more Turbostars ever gets released from other TOC ends up with Northern.

Once WMT hands over the 323's it will allow both class 319 to be stood down and many of the 3 car class 331 to be transferred to Leeds (In exchange for 4 car sets which will return to Manchester) to operate some Airedale and Wharedale as 6 car sets, Pairs or 323 will be used on some service in the NW. There has been £84M investment which includes platform extensions on the Chat Moss, Bolton, Styal and Leeds NW lines to support 6 car 323/331 sets, Northern has recently started using 323 in pairs on the Manchester - Stoke on saturdays so far.

20 2 car class 195 has been signed off and expect to be Diesel-Hybrid sets and all CAF sets will go though a refresh which sees the original flat cloth material used on the seats replaced wuth more durable upholdtery that provide better in long-term and make the seats ''Less Firm''.


Lets see what happens.

According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Trains#Current_fleet Northern has 6 x 150/0, 46 x 150/1, 26 x 150/2, 7 x 155, 51 x 156, 53 x 158, how will their current Sprinters and 158s be replaced without massive service reductions?

 

[507020]

According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Trains#Current_fleet Northern has 6 x 150/0, 46 x 150/1, 26 x 150/2, 7 x 155, 51 x 156, 53 x 158, how will their current Sprinters and 158s be replaced without massive service reductions?

The 14x and 153s have already gone so 155s can be written off and 8 of these 158s are 3 car. Northern also has 25 x 195/0 and 33 x 195/1 which cannot be used to replace Sprinters. 20 x new 195s are being ordered, but even with the addition of those, replacement with 11 x 175/0, 16 x 175/1 and 51 x 185 would barely scratch the Northern Sprinter fleet, let alone replacement of Turbostars with units more suitable for frequent stopping duties. Clearly the only option for Northern is further electrification and the provision of either surplus or new EMUs. There is no future in Diesel and even less prospect of DMUs being found to replace all Sprinters like for like. The key is to find routes to electrify first which will take the largest chunks out of the required Diesel fleet, to allow the remainder to be worked the likes of 175s, 185s, 600s and 769s as a stop gap. If any lines can be transferred to other operators with battery stock such as Ormskirk - Preston and Merseyrail 777s this will also help alleviate the pressure to replace Sprinters.

 

[Killingworth]

Platform lengths are seen as an issue but 6 car 195s worked the Hope Valley route on Saturday and Sunday this last weekend. As far as I recall all, certainly most, stations between Manchester and Sheffield are 4 car only. Lengthening may not be necessary, certainly not in the short term if door opening procedures work.

Generally it worked well at the weekend - and will work better in future when regular users learn not to get into the first two carriages they get to when boarding at Manchester and Sheffield for those intermediate stations! Bikes are possibly a problem for although there's twice as much space half is probably not accessible at those desired destinations in the Peak District. The units could be linked so the bike sections are nose to nose, but I suspect that would be organisationally challenging.

 

[Mamorin]

Technically, they're pathed as an electric locomotive hauling 331 tonnes. A bit of creative (or possibly mistaken) data entry there!

Well that is what they are pathed as, it’s mistaken data entry I think. I must admit I do like the mistaken data entry got a shock when I saw that for the first time a while back.

Timings wise Stoke Sunday Stoppers are 331 timed so the 323 units used are always late as far as timetabling is concerned.

I think Stoke Sunday stoppers have been 331 timed for a few years now, though I don’t think a 331 has ever been used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2022 ==

Sunday Stoke stoppers probably need the full 6 cars really considering how infrequent they are.

Never used stoke Sunday stoppers services but at this point 6 cars might be needed, since Northern don’t plan to increase the Sunday service to Stoke.

Wish the North West had the 333s those would be great for Stoke Stoppers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2022 ==

At some point in the distant past, 4 cars were planned for Glossop/Hadfield.

Wasn’t that when Glossop/Hadfield was ment to go to 319 operation? I know that was said to be a planned idea in 2015.

Once the 331/1s arrive Glossop/Hadfield may go to 331 operation.

 

[gc4946]

The 14x and 153s have already gone so 155s can be written off and 8 of these 158s are 3 car. Northern also has 25 x 195/0 and 33 x 195/1 which cannot be used to replace Sprinters. 20 x new 195s are being ordered, but even with the addition of those, replacement with 11 x 175/0, 16 x 175/1 and 51 x 185 would barely scratch the Northern Sprinter fleet, let alone replacement of Turbostars with units more suitable for frequent stopping duties. Clearly the only option for Northern is further electrification and the provision of either surplus or new EMUs. There is no future in Diesel and even less prospect of DMUs being found to replace all Sprinters like for like. The key is to find routes to electrify first which will take the largest chunks out of the required Diesel fleet, to allow the remainder to be worked the likes of 175s, 185s, 600s and 769s as a stop gap. If any lines can be transferred to other operators with battery stock such as Ormskirk - Preston and Merseyrail 777s this will also help alleviate the pressure to replace Sprinters.

There's plans for hydrogen units based on Teesside but don't know how far they've progressed.
It's a big ask for more lines to be electrified before 2026-2029 when Northern hopes to retire their 150/155/156 fleets.
Currently electrification is progressing on the Wigan NW route to Bolton via Westhoughton, and Manchester Victoria (and Guide Bridge Junction) to Stalybridge.
No electrification plans for CLC line via Warrington Central announced yet, and no timescales for Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds and Neville Hill-Colton Junction given either.

 

[Dspatula]

What is wrong with 158s on the Calder Valley, or the west side generally? They occasionally still reach Southport and one ran Ormskirk - Preston on Grand National day. There are also still 150s Kirkby - Blackburn.

It would reduce the amount of traction training needed.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think Stoke Sunday stoppers have been 331 timed for a few years now, though I don’t think a 331 has ever been used.

They have occasionally (I've been on one) but 323s are hugely more common.

Never used stoke Sunday stoppers services but at this point 6 cars might be needed, since Northern don’t plan to increase the Sunday service to Stoke

The 6 cars definitely would be beneficial. Going hourly on Sundays would be better - even if it meant a 3-car train every hour rather than 6 cars a few times a day, that's still a capacity increase, and in reality I imagine there's enough slack in the diagrams on a Sunday that some of them could be doubled up to 6 anyway.

Wish the North West had the 333s those would be great for Stoke Stoppers.

Not sure what advantage they have over the 323s other than being a bit more modern? The 323s do a perfectly decent job on the Stoke line for now (indeed it's exactly the kind of thing they were built for) - we just need more of them (and the requisite platform extensions, or possibly SDO retrofitment if that could be done)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure what advantage they have over the 323s other than being a bit more modern? The 323s do a perfectly decent job on the Stoke line for now (indeed it's exactly the kind of thing they were built for) - we just need more of them

Merry Christmas, I believe West Midlands Trains has a present or two for you!

 

[507020]

Merry Christmas, I believe West Midlands Trains has a present or two for you!

In fact it has a total of 26 presents!

 

[py_megapixel]

Well, they will do in the distant future, when they finally get their Aventrae into service.

I'm slightly torn on whether it beats the previous plan of replacing the 323s with 319s. On one hand perhaps it would have been nice to have 4 car 100mph units on most EMU services (not that the 100mph capability would have made much difference). But on the other hand the 319s is inferior to the 323s in almost every other respect, not least because it is a substantially older design, which makes the idea of using them as a replacement for something newer rather silly.

 

[jonesy3001]

In fact it has a total of 26 presents!

Are they getting all 26 now?

 

[Neptune]

Are they getting all 26 now?

No, 17 are coming to Northern.

Everything is, as always, subject to change but the figure of 17 is the latest one and hasn’t changed since first announced.

 

[507020]

No, 17 are coming to Northern.

Everything is, as always, subject to change but the figure of 17 is the latest one and hasn’t changed since first announced.

Well if Northern behaves itself and finishes an extra bit of electrification who knows what it may get this Christmas?

 

[py_megapixel]

Well if Northern behaves itself and finishes an extra bit of electrification who knows what it may get this Christmas?

Well if the DfT behaves itself and keeps its promises to fund said extra bit of electrification...

 

[507020]

Well if the DfT behaves itself and keeps its promises to fund said extra bit of electrification...

This is where it gets complicated. If the DfT i.e. Grant Shapps behaves himself and funds Network Rail to complete electrification in the north where Northern runs, then Northern will receive extra Christmas presents.

 

[Mamorin]

Not sure what advantage they have over the 323s other than being a bit more modern?

Benefits of the 333s is capacity 333s have a seating capacity of 360, 323s have a seating capacity of 275. 333s are also 100mph units compared to 323s top speed of 90mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2022 ==

Going hourly on Sundays would be better

Northern have no plans to make Stoke Stoppers hourly, in fact they can’t as I think Northern drivers and guards in the NW still have an opt-out of Sunday working.

Best bet for Hourly sunday Stoke line has is for Cross Country to make calls at Northern’s busiest stations on the line (E.G. Congleton, Poynton etc) at the hours where Northern operate no services. However that won’t happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2022 ==

Not sure if it’s been mentioned elsewhere but there’s also a plan to add around 30 trains worth of space to the Manchester international depot for Northern.

Not heard of that before, however the plan makes sense since Northern want some more trains and their current depots must be close to if not full.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2022 ==

I'm slightly torn on whether it beats the previous plan of replacing the 323s with 319s.

It doesn’t beat the previous plan, the 319s have poor acceleration and never reach their top speed on the Norther network (I think the best they reach is 75mph?).

Just look at when 319s have operated Stoke Stoppers 319s end up 5 minutes late to most stations. 323s are better in almost all areas when compared to 319s.

Only area where 319s are better than 323s is capacity.

 

[Harvey B]

Nothing has been mention about the 170 except that they ''Will be able to continue through the 2030's as will the 333''

If wouldn't be surprised if they're still both in use 20 years from now. 40-50 Years seems to be the current lifespan of Most, If not all Trains today

 

[AndrewE]

If wouldn't be surprised if they're still both in use 20 years from now. 40-50 Years seems to be the current lifespan of Most, If not all Trains today

Actually, it's old BR stuff that went on almost forever. I would be very surprised if any post-BR stock had anything like the life-span.

I get the feeling that IT issues and lightweight build mean that much rolling stock is just not worth refurbishing or even upgrading nowadays. Even if you abandon the IT and cabling and strip right back to a bare shell you still have the limited lifespan of aluminium alloys to deal with, as opposed to steel's immortality.