Northern's upcoming plans

[railfan100]

Hard decisions need to be made in the North, first of all extend platforms so that 4 car trains minimum can be accommodated at every single station.

Sort out the ride quality on the 195 units and at the same time order new cars from the manufacturer so that every 195 unit become 4 car units. Then the gangway situation becomes less of an issue. They should have been ordered with gangways but of course too late now.

The new trains in this day and age have to be BI mode units. Again 4 car units should be procured and with front gangways in the event in 15 years from now there is a requirement to go to 8 car. Yes it will be more expensive but the railways are either national infrastructure or not...

 

[Starmill]

Tell the "financiers" to take a running jump.

Fine if you don't want any credit. But where on earth are Northern going to get many tens of millions of pounds up front from?

 

[AndrewE]

Fine if you don't want any credit. But where on earth are Northern going to get many tens of millions of pounds up front from?

"Northern" don't exist.
It's infrastructure. Just order it and build it / the rolling stock. We have had dozens of tutorials here about "fiat currency" and investment in infrastructure before now, but some people just can't seem to hear what is being said.

How many roads are built on credit? The M6 relief road has worked out well hasn't it? Well, it has for the financial sector (alone.)

 

[SansHache]

Of course paying cash up front is *always* the cheapest option in the long term…

I believe it is true that 323s suffer electromagnetic incompatibility issues when running through Chorley (but not between Bolton and Manchester, so they could run to Wigan via Westhoughton) so it is not considered desirable to send them to Preston or Blackpool, but that the 319s, 331s, 397s (and Pendolinos on diversion) do not share these issues and can pass through unhindered.

Class 323s have been authorised for operation between Manchester, Bolton, Chorley and Preston since July 2019. There were electromagnetic compatibility issues around Manchester Victoria station but these were addressed some time ago.

 

[Prestige15]

After reading most comments i think its safe to say that even though the CAF isnt exactly a bad train but Northern should have gone for 755's instead, They are currently the best of both in my opinion. The BiMU would have been well welcomed on the Manchester-Barrow/Windermere route

 

[Starmill]

"Northern" don't exist.
It's infrastructure. Just order it and build it / the rolling stock. We have had dozens of tutorials here about "fiat currency" and investment in infrastructure before now, but some people just can't seem to hear what is being said.

How many roads are built on credit? The M6 relief road has worked out well hasn't it? Well, it has for the financial sector (alone.)

I agree that's one option but I'd point out that people keep voting for the fiscal hawks in their droves. Unless that changes I'm afraid you'll have to follow the rules laid out by Sunak and Co.

Lots of roads have been constructed under the private finance initiative or in public-private "partnerships" which are a huve drain on resources.

 

[Kite159]

After reading most comments i think its safe to say that even though the CAF isnt exactly a bad train but Northern should have gone for 755's instead, They are currently the best of both in my opinion. The BiMU would have been well welcomed on the Manchester-Barrow/Windermere route

Agreed, a batch of 4 coach 755 style trains, maybe similar layout to the Welsh ones (including batteries & more doors). Would be ideal for Windermere/Barrow services to reduce diesel under wires.

Gangways are a nice to have but I suspect drivers prefer full sized cabs, just ensure there is a third member of staff to do revenue in the front unit if they work together, on some routes they will pay for themselves

 

[Bletchleyite]

After reading most comments i think its safe to say that even though the CAF isnt exactly a bad train but Northern should have gone for 755's instead, They are currently the best of both in my opinion. The BiMU would have been well welcomed on the Manchester-Barrow/Windermere route

Or get TPE a couple more 802s and have them take Barrow and Windermere back over. Those routes (other than Southport which has 769s) are the "key" bi mode routes, and it would give a quality increase too.

They've already got a tender out, so easy to add two or three more units now.

 

[A0]

Tell the "financiers" to take a running jump. This is public transport, infrastructure. The future of rail is supposed to be delivering what the country needs, not enriching the shysters in the City any more.

Regardless of how they are paid for the same basic principles apply. It is not a good use of taxpayers money to buy small non standard subclasses of brand new trains which may not be compatible with other units on the fleet.

Buying them using cash up front only to see them being scrapped prematurely because they may not be suitable for redeployment is an utter waste.

And I'm not sure where you think the government gets a huge pot of money from to buy a load of new rolling stock - it comes from the money markets whichever way you do it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2022 ==

After reading most comments i think its safe to say that even though the CAF isnt exactly a bad train but Northern should have gone for 755's instead, They are currently the best of both in my opinion. The BiMU would have been well welcomed on the Manchester-Barrow/Windermere route

The Northern rolling stock would have been undertaken using a competitive tender. CAF won - presumably by best meetimg the criteria of the tender which Stadler - if they entered the tender - didn't.

Adding different unit types to Northern now will lead to increased costs, be it driver training, clearance to operate on Northern's routes, maintenance and spares holding.

The CAF units aren't bad trains, the whinges on here are no different to the whinges about other trains - seats, ride, window alignment etc - and all are subjective and therefore rightly play no part in such tender processes.

 

[py_megapixel]

The CAF units aren't bad trains, the whinges on here are no different to the whinges about other trains - seats, ride, window alignment etc - and all are subjective and therefore rightly play no part in such tender processes.

Seats and window alignment are not to do with the manufacturer. They are to do with a lazy/cheap spec on Northern's part.

I don't really understand how ride is subjective. If you read the specification for the new HS2 stock you'll notice that ride quality standards are in fact specified in objective terms.

And (I know I keep going on about this but I feel it's very important) they are pure diesel units and do not have modern accessibility features such as sliding steps. Those things aren't subjective either.

 

[Starmill]

The CAF units aren't bad trains, the whinges on here are no different to the whinges about other trains - seats, ride, window alignment etc - and all are subjective and therefore rightly play no part in such tender processes.

To be fair this really isn't true - next to nobody ever complains about the class 185 with TransPennine Express interior or the class 175 with Transport for Wales interior. They're very high quality products which are pretty much like new. The updated Northern specification for 170s is almost as good. The only thing that is there are too few of them in all cases.

That said a 195 has a notable advantage over all in that vehicle for vehicle their diesel emissions will be less and their fuel consumption, and thus carbon emissions, lower.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2022 ==

And (I know I keep going on about this but I feel it's very important) they are pure diesel units and do not have modern accessibility features such as sliding steps. Those things aren't subjective either.

To be fair, almost no trains in this country have sliding steps. Look how large the step is in an 80x - it is as poor as a mark 3 coach was. Nearly every mainline vehicle in the county requires a ramp for level access. It's a valid criticism, as long as you level it at everyone equally.

 

[Trainbike46]

To be fair, almost no trains in this country have sliding steps. Look how large the step is in an 80x - it is as poor as a mark 3 coach was. Nearly every mainline vehicle in the county requires a ramp for level access. It's a valid criticism, as long as you level it at everyone equally.

It should have been a requirement for the 80x yes, but failing that requiring it for all new rolling stock from now on would be a good step to (slowly) move to a fully accessible railway.

The sliding step on the 755s is one of the many things I really like about those trains, but it is kind of weird that the most accessible trains in the country are on branch lines in rural east anglia

 

[Energy]

which Stadler - if they entered the tender - didn't.

People seem to be forgetting that the Northern order wasn't very big, smaller than GA's order for FLIRTs. Supposidly the 745 order was partly because the 755 order by itself wasn't big enough for Stadler to bring the FLIRT to the the UK.

 

[Trainbike46]

People seem to be forgetting that the Northern order wasn't very big, smaller than GA's order for FLIRTs. Supposidly the 745 order was partly because the 755 order by itself wasn't big enough for Stadler to bring the FLIRT to the the UK.

Now that the FLIRT UK design has been made though, it seems unlikely that order size is really the problem. Most likely CAF got the order because of the similarity to rolling stock northern already operates (and probably rightly so, because microfleets are a pain for everyone)

 

[A0]

Now that the FLIRT UK design has been made though, it seems unlikely that order size is really the problem.

Not necessarily - Stadler's business model may be predicated on producing a higher volume and they may not want to be producing runs of 20 or 30 units. It will be how the whole of their production supply chain is set up -
done to maximise efficiency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily - Stadler's business model may be predicated on producing a higher volume and they may not want to be producing runs of 20 or 30 units. It will be how the whole of their production supply chain is set up -
done to maximise efficiency.

Stadler's precise business model is small runs of non-standard products for the likes of Swiss narrow gauge lines, usually in the single figures of units, never mind 20-30. The need for larger volume will have been to be able to deal with the UK regulatory stuff to bring the platform here, and that's now done.

 

[Starmill]

People seem to be forgetting that the Northern order wasn't very big, smaller than GA's order for FLIRTs. Supposidly the 745 order was partly because the 755 order by itself wasn't big enough for Stadler to bring the FLIRT to the the UK.

20 * 12 car class 745, 240 vehicles
14 * 3 car class 755 42 vehicles
24 * 4 car class 755 96 vehicles

378 vehicles in total

31 * 3 car class 331, 93 vehicles
12 * 4 car class 331, 48 vehicles
25 * 2 car class 195, 50 vehicles
33 * 3 car class 195, 99 vehicles

290 vehicles in total

Greater Anglia's order was only 30% larger by number of vehicles. Northern's vehicles are all 24m long too, whereas the Greater Anglia ones vary between 15m and 21m. The overall carrying capacity of the fleets is very similar.

 

[Energy]

20 * 12 car class 745, 240 vehicles
14 * 3 car class 755 42 vehicles
24 * 4 car class 755 96 vehicles

378 vehicles in total

31 * 3 car class 331, 93 vehicles
12 * 4 car class 331, 48 vehicles
25 * 2 car class 195, 50 vehicles
33 * 3 car class 195, 99 vehicles

290 vehicles in total

Greater Anglia's order was only 30% larger by number of vehicles. Northern's vehicles are all 24m long too, whereas the Greater Anglia ones vary between 15m and 21m. The overall carrying capacity of the fleets is very similar.

Car length is a fair point, though the CAF order was worth £490M (source) and the Stadler order was worth £610M (source + stadlers press release said £600+M).

Stadler may well have bid for the Northern order, though the franchise at the time required some new trains and not too expensive, with the DfT saying before that replacing pacers wasn't great value for money and even when it was overruled the minimum new carriage order was only 120.

 

[Greybeard33]

20 2 car class 195 has been signed off and expect to be Diesel-Hybrid sets

The order for 20x hybrid 195s is old news - it is the topic of this thread started back in December:

Potential Order for 20 hybrid 195s for Northern - Speculative discussion

Split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/195s-truly-awful-not-a-step-forward.223797/ Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

www.railforums.co.uk

The criticism of it in this new thread seems like groundhog day!

An article in Modern Railways in January indicated that these units are intended to replace Sprinters on routes that are not likely to be electrified.

Northern says the 20 hybrid sets are planned to be used on services that operate over the lines which feature in the Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU), primarily the Leeds – Brighouse – Manchester Victoria – Wigan and Huddersfield – Bradford service groups. The new units will expand the proportion of Northern’s fleet that is ‘European Train Control System ready’ and thus be able to operate under the digital signalling system that will be installed during the TRU programme.

Establishing a secure connection ...

 

[Starmill]

Car length is a fair point, though the CAF order was worth £490M (source) and the Stadler order was worth £610M (source + stadlers press release said £600+M).

Stadler may well have bid for the Northern order, though the franchise at the time required some new trains and not too expensive, with the DfT saying before that replacing pacers wasn't great value for money and even when it was overruled the minimum new carriage order was only 120.

The interior specifications on the FLIRTs were also much nicer than the Northern ones, because they included second toilets and on 10 sets the catering facilities and First Class. Even the standard provision is nicely designed. Northern's very clearly were done to the cheapest possible specification, with no gangways, no First Class or catering provision and only a single toilet per vehicle. So again probably not a huge shock that Greater Anglia spent more. Of course it is a false economy in some circumstances because Northern are prematurely replacing all of the seat coverings, as the ones they were built with were so cheap that they wore awfully. From my single ride so far on a unit with the new ones they're a significant improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The interior specifications on the FLIRTs were also much nicer than the Northern ones, because they included second toilets and on 10 sets the catering facilities and First Class. Even the standard provision is nicely designed. Northern's very clearly were done to the cheapest possible specification, with no gangways, no First Class or catering provision and only a single toilet per vehicle. So again probably not a huge shock that Greater Anglia spent more. Of course it is a false economy in some circumstances because Northern are prematurely replacing all of the seat coverings, as the ones they were built with were so cheap that they wore awfully. From my single ride so far on a unit with the new ones they're a significant improvement.

I'm led to believe that flat cloth isn't cheaper than moquette, so it was just stupid style-over-substance design. I would say that flat cloth looks much more modern than moquette, but you really need to be taking it all off and washing it weekly at least, so it was a false economy. Moquette, like carpet (it's basically the same thing), is better at hiding stains.

As to the interiors, yes, GA specified FISA LEANs and Northern contoured ironing boards, but I'd not say there's much to choose between the two. Indeed, for the 195s, if you assume the layout was fixed, the airline seats at the vehicle ends would be quite tight with the thick-backed LEANs compared with the very thin-backed ironing boards, so they may well have made the sensible choice rather than just the cheap one. The bases of the two I find have a similar level of comfort, and both are better than the Fainsa Sophia, so thank goodness it wasn't those!

The GA colour scheme is nicer, but that's just down to what colour you paint things and is entirely a matter of personal preference. I don't think one will have cost more than the other.

That just leaves the bog.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm led to believe that flat cloth isn't cheaper than moquette, so it was just stupid style-over-substance design. I would say that flat cloth looks much more modern than moquette, but you really need to be taking it all off and washing it weekly at least, so it was a false economy. Moquette, like carpet (it's basically the same thing), is better at hiding stains.

It looks much more modern on modern seats. When they put it on ancient Ashbournes it looked a bit ridiculous to me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks much more modern on modern seats. When they put it on ancient Ashbournes it looked a bit ridiculous to me!

Yes, I'd agree it looked rubbish on Ashbournes and Chapmans, but it did look good on 195s. Moquette looks a bit out of place on those, though that's more a fault of the bright colours. Of course flat cloth looks rubbish when within a day or two someone chucks a cup of coffee or a can of Coke all over it.

 

[507020]

I'm led to believe that flat cloth isn't cheaper than moquette, so it was just stupid style-over-substance design. I would say that flat cloth looks much more modern than moquette, but you really need to be taking it all off and washing it weekly at least, so it was a false economy. Moquette, like carpet (it's basically the same thing), is better at hiding stains.

As to the interiors, yes, GA specified FISA LEANs and Northern contoured ironing boards, but I'd not say there's much to choose between the two. Indeed, for the 195s, if you assume the layout was fixed, the airline seats at the vehicle ends would be quite tight with the thick-backed LEANs compared with the very thin-backed ironing boards, so they may well have made the sensible choice rather than just the cheap one. The bases of the two I find have a similar level of comfort, and both are better than the Fainsa Sophia, so thank goodness it wasn't those!

The GA colour scheme is nicer, but that's just down to what colour you paint things and is entirely a matter of personal preference. I don't think one will have cost more than the other.

That just leaves the bog.

If modern means perpetually filthy and absolutely disgusting to look at, not to mention sit on, as it feels unbelievably cheap and plasticky, to a point where I have been concerned about damaging my trousers by sitting on it, then yes flat cloth is more modern than moquette, but there is no reason why moquette, like carpet, cannot be a timeless material made to look modern by putting a modern design on it.

I don’t think the Northern colour scheme is particularly good. GA, WMR, TfW, LNWR and Merseyrail are certainly better. Basically anything that uses a base of grey with an accent colour, rather than a being a solid colour. EMT red or LM green seats don’t look particularly good either. Virgin/XC works a bit better because the blue/red is darker to start with.

Thin backed seats are beneficial for the purposes of leg room, but otherwise unnecessarily uncomfortable.

It looks much more modern on modern seats. When they put it on ancient Ashbournes it looked a bit ridiculous to me!

Everything about the Ashbournes is ridiculous. Have you ever met anyone who is rectangular enough to be able to sit comfortably in one? The seating position is also much too low for anyone with legs, which when considering that those without will be using wheelchairs rather than sitting in them really is stupid!

Yes, I'd agree it looked rubbish on Ashbournes and Chapmans, but it did look good on 195s. Moquette looks a bit out of place on those, though that's more a fault of the bright colours. Of course flat cloth looks rubbish when within a day or two someone chucks a cup of coffee or a can of Coke all over it.

I was lucky enough to be able to travel on a reupholstered 195 with moquette on the early morning service from Manchester Airport to Lime Street via Chat Moss yesterday and I have to say it was infinitely more comfortable than any other journey I have previously made on a 195. I can scarcely believe the amount of difference just a couple of millimetres of extra padding from the moquette makes, as well as being more aesthetically pleasing just because it doesn’t look dirty.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm led to believe that flat cloth isn't cheaper than moquette, so it was just stupid style-over-substance design. I would say that flat cloth looks much more modern than moquette, but you really need to be taking it all off and washing it weekly at least, so it was a false economy. Moquette, like carpet (it's basically the same thing), is better at hiding stains.

As to the interiors, yes, GA specified FISA LEANs and Northern contoured ironing boards, but I'd not say there's much to choose between the two. Indeed, for the 195s, if you assume the layout was fixed, the airline seats at the vehicle ends would be quite tight with the thick-backed LEANs compared with the very thin-backed ironing boards, so they may well have made the sensible choice rather than just the cheap one. The bases of the two I find have a similar level of comfort, and both are better than the Fainsa Sophia, so thank goodness it wasn't those!

The GA colour scheme is nicer, but that's just down to what colour you paint things and is entirely a matter of personal preference. I don't think one will have cost more than the other.

That just leaves the bog.

Bogs! Back in the day almost every station had two of them, ladies and gents, and mainline trains had them too, but not on some of the lines now served by 195s. Bogs were simple things but today the simple size of the retention tank makes the provision inadequate. It's not an exclusively 195 thing. It can even apply to expensively overhauled heritage stock on long rail tours too.

But after that digression, I can say that a 6 coach weekend 195 instead of a 2 coach Pacer has my vote whatever the seats may be like. Still euphoric on the second day of realistic capacity being provided on the Hope Valley line. Non rail enthusiast travellers mostly love them. Today I saw something I'd never seen before at a weekend. The wheelchair ramp being deployed with ease and plenty of space for the chair and accompanying family on the train. When word gets round all the newly provided space will very soon fill up. It was doing already yesterday morning.

That said Greater Anglia's 755s have the edge for me with level access from platforms like this one and being bi-mode. I haven't been on one long enough to judge seating.

Taken at Dore & Totley.

April 2022- an issue with bike and wheelchair access at 6 car length on 4 car platforms. July 2019 - guard reaching for handset to ask everyone to move up, then she had to squeeze back in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If modern means perpetually filthy and absolutely disgusting to look at, not to mention sit on, as it feels unbelievably cheap and plasticky, to a point where I have been concerned about damaging my trousers by sitting on it, then yes flat cloth is more modern than moquette, but there is no reason why moquette, like carpet, cannot be a timeless material made to look modern by putting a modern design on it.

I think Northern's modern design looks bad, but most of the "grey with coloured flecks" ones I've seen (GA, WMT and Avanti Voyagers) look good to me.

To be honest the Northern interior reminds me of SBB with the blue vehicle ends. Shame their operation isn't, as a whole, up to that standard

 

[507020]

April 2022- an issue with bike and wheelchair access at 6 car length on 4 car platforms. July 2019 - guard reaching for handset to ask everyone to move up, then she had to squeeze back in.

Where were these taken? I assume somewhere on the Hope Valley line

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was lucky enough to be able to travel on a reupholstered 195 with moquette on the early morning service from Manchester Airport to Lime Street via Chat Moss yesterday and I have to say it was infinitely more comfortable than any other journey I have previously made on a 195. I can scarcely believe the amount of difference just a couple of millimetres of extra padding from the moquette makes, as well as being more aesthetically pleasing just because it doesn’t look dirty.

As everyone on here knows I have rather a dislike for the Fainsa Sophia, but it definitely seems that just a few millimetres of moquette provide a noticeable padding effect against the "sitting on the support bar" flaw, and so I'd agree it makes a difference and is not psychological.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2022 ==

But after that digression, I can say that a 6 coach weekend 195 instead of a 2 coach Pacer has my vote whatever the seats may be like. Still euphoric on the second day of realistic capacity being provided on the Hope Valley line. Non rail enthusiast
travellers mostly love them. Today I saw something I'd never seen before at a weekend. The wheelchair ramp being deployed with ease and plenty of space for the chair and accompanying family on the train. When word gets round all the newly
provided space will very soon fill up. It was doing already yesterday morning.

Absolutely. For all I think some aspects of 195s are a bit rubbish (though I like other aspects, such as the legroom being decent and the luggage space huge), and that they should order bi-modes for the WCML services, and that it's really about time we went low-floor, what has happened on Northern is nothing short of transformative - the idea of South East train lengths in the North is long overdue, and rights a wrong that was made well over 30 years ago with the "2 for 3" approach with Sprinter procurement...finally!

Now we just need the actual operation to reach European standards.

 

[Killingworth]

Where were these taken? I assume somewhere on the Hope Valley line

Apologies, have edited to add Dore & Totley

 

[Mamorin]

With the 4 car 331s coming West I think It will be interesting to see what routes they end up on.

Only route I can think they may end up on is Stoke stoppers on Sundays, as those are already pathed as 331s but are currently 323 operated.