Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[hairyhandedfool]

Maybe they should make all the passengers wear hi-viz so we don't bump in to each other.

Don't give them ideas!

 

[northwichcat]

I have to say, this is something that irritates me on the 319s. The train to "Manchester Air"! The destination at least should be written out in full even if some of the longer intermediate stations are abbreviated.

That's also false advertising unless the train can fly

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's also false advertising unless the train can fly

On the contrary, it means that if the unit conks out and you get turfed off at Burnage they can still say they got you to the stated destination!

 

[mikemcniven]

RailcamUK have tweeted an image of 158754 on delivery back to northern with old new style "Northern" and old coloured "n"

https://twitter.com/railcamlive/status/894591760969740289/photo/1

 

[Defiance149]

RailcamUK have tweeted an image of 158754 on delivery back to northern with old new style "Northern" and old coloured "n"

Next set is booked to Kilmarnock in the morning, 04.55 from Neville Hill via Hexham.

 

[JaJaWa]

Interesting that these 'n' colours are new when I previously extracted them from their franchise agreement (dated 22 December 2015)!

 

[Adam0984]

Next set is booked to Kilmarnock in the morning, 04.55 from Neville Hill via Hexham.

158753 going back by all accounts. This has already had stage 1 refurbishment so not sure why it's going back

 

[northwichcat]

158753 going back by all accounts. This has already had stage 1 refurbishment so not sure why it's going back

Weren't management unhappy with the standard it came back in?

 

[northwichcat]

I've started a new thread for discussion of the Angel Trains 150/0s and 150/2s here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=151825

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Got a question about carriage numbers - given that some of you seem to know more about this than us, thought it'd be worth asking

So by me, we're going to have 612 non-flex DMU carriages

2-car 150 - 56 = 112
3-car 150 - 18 = 54 (including 24 2-car 150s reformed into 3-car)
2-car 155 - 7 = 14
2-car 156 - 47 = 94
2-car 158 - 45 = 90
3-car 158 - 8 = 24
3-car 170 - 16 = 48
2-car 195 - 25 = 50
3-car 195 - 30 = 90
2-car tbc - 18 = 36

(Losing 158 142 carriages, 56 144 carriages and 18 153s)

However, the official figure for the number of carriages by 2020 is 572 (with the total being 885 including EMUs and Flex). Obviously that's a difference of 40

Where am I going wrong?

 

[northwichcat]

The 2 car tbc aren't included in the December 2019 train plan as they aren't required to be in service until 2022, so that's an error of 36. The last batch of 195s and 331s will arrive during 2020 so that might be where the numbers don't add up if everything else is correct.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The 2 car tbc aren't included in the December 2019 train plan as they aren't required to be in service until 2022, so that's an error of 36. The last batch of 195s and 331s will arrive during 2020 so that might be where the numbers don't add up if everything else is correct.

Hmm, well the figures are for May 2020. 338 units across diesel and electric. My figures for the EMUs were bang on. Would imply that two 2-car DMUs aren't arriving until later in 2020. And in fact our transformation page seems to indicate that as it's showing 98 new trains + 243 upgraded trains: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/transformation. If I had to guess, I'd say that means some of the cascade continues after May 2020

 

[coxxy]

Hmm, well the figures are for May 2020. 338 units across diesel and electric. My figures for the EMUs were bang on. Would imply that three 2-car DMUs aren't arriving until later in 2020. And in fact our transformation page seems to indicate that as it's showing 98 new trains + 243 upgraded trains: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/transformation. If I had to guess, I'd say that means some of the cascade continues after May 2020

I'm sure this has been mentioned some where already but that isn't much of an improvement on what they have now surely??

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

I'm sure this has been mentioned some where already but that isn't much of an improvement on what they have now surely??

Well the eventual total number of carriages is 925 which is about 150 up on the current total we have (excluding sub-leased ones) - getting on towards a 20% increase. Plus all of those carriages will be to a much higher standard and 98 will have a greater capacity

I'm not here to cheerlead the company, but realistically I think it's about as good as it's going to get out of the current system

 

[1179_Clee2]

Well the eventual total number of carriages is 925 which is about 150 up on the current total we have (excluding sub-leased ones) - getting on towards a 20% increase. Plus all of those carriages will be to a much higher standard and 98 will have a greater capacity

I'm not here to cheerlead the company, but realistically I think it's about as good as it's going to get out of the current system

The eventual total of carriages is not 925 for a start.

You have said that total DMUs are 572 carriages in your earlier post

319/397 32 4 car trains =128 carriages
333 16 4 car trains = 64
331 31 3 car trains = 93
331 12 4 car trains = 48
TOTAL EMUs 333

572 + 333 = 905 carriages NOT 925

 

[northwichcat]

Ignore.

 

[northwichcat]

319/769 32 4 car trains =128 carriages
...
331 31 3 car trains = 93
331 12 4 car trains = 48

There's some confusion over the EMU numbers here. According to the franchise agreement Northern will have 32 x 319s/769s and retain the 321s and 322s at the December 2019 timetable change but by May 2020 timetable change 5 x 319s and the 321s and 322s will all have gone off-lease.

Between the December 2019 timetable change and the May 2020 timetable change the last batch of CAF DMUs should enter service which will consist of 3 x 2 car 195s and 1 x 3 car 195.

It's unclear when the last batch of 331s is supposed to be in service - maybe they allowed 1 or 2 x 331s not being in service in May 2020 to allow for the uncertainty regarding Windermere electrification? If that is the case it would explain why Bwlch y Groes thinks the numbers don't add up

 

[Bornin1980s]

Got a question about carriage numbers - given that some of you seem to know more about this than us, thought it'd be worth asking

So by me, we're going to have 612 non-flex DMU carriages

2-car 150 - 56 = 112
3-car 150 - 18 = 54 (including 24 2-car 150s reformed into 3-car)
2-car 155 - 7 = 14
2-car 156 - 47 = 94
2-car 158 - 45 = 90
3-car 158 - 8 = 24
3-car 170 - 16 = 48
2-car 195 - 25 = 50
3-car 195 - 30 = 90
2-car tbc - 18 = 36

(Losing 158 142 carriages, 56 144 carriages and 18 153s)

However, the official figure for the number of carriages by 2020 is 572 (with the total being 885 including EMUs and Flex). Obviously that's a difference of 40

Where am I going wrong?

My personal concern is with the number of diesel units, since electrification is not compulsory, but the withdrawal of the large fleet of Pacers is. Now, I have just done some quick calculations based on the original fleet cascade chart from 2016. I have counted 277 diesel units in the current fleet, including three hired in 185's and two loco hauled rakes. Going over the figures in the second column, for 2020, shows a headline grabbing increase in the number of carriages, but only 258 diesel units, and that's counting 8 769 bi-modes. This appears to be a net loss of 19 complete self powered trains!

Now, this would be fine for a no growth franchise. Except, this franchise is promising a massive increase in service levels. In particular, it seems that most, if not all of the 55 new diesel units will be kept exclusively for a brand-new longer distance service. I mean, we have already tried putting 51 brand-new units on the existing long-distance service, but any cascade caused by the 185's obviously wasn't enough to replace a single Pacer. Neither did 27 175s, or more than 100 Turbostars! So how can 55 trains on a brand-new service do the trick?

I believe my local area plans to rely entirely on 156s. However, services are still predominantly 142 operated, and Northern is only receiving five extra 156s. Good trains, but they are no longer manufactured.

I still say, what we need was never new flagship trains. We need direct pacer replacements.

 

[47802]

My personal concern is with the number of diesel units, since electrification is not compulsory, but the withdrawal of the large fleet of Pacers is. Now, I have just done some quick calculations based on the original fleet cascade chart from 2016. I have counted 277 diesel units in the current fleet, including three hired in 185's and two loco hauled rakes. Going over the figures in the second column, for 2020, shows a headline grabbing increase in the number of carriages, but only 258 diesel units, and that's counting 8 769 bi-modes. This appears to be a net loss of 19 complete self powered trains!

Now, this would be fine for a no growth franchise. Except, this franchise is promising a massive increase in service levels. In particular, it seems that most, if not all of the 55 new diesel units will be kept exclusively for a brand-new longer distance service. I mean, we have already tried putting 51 brand-new units on the existing long-distance service, but any cascade caused by the 185's obviously wasn't enough to replace a single Pacer. Neither did 27 175s, or more than 100 Turbostars! So how can 55 trains on a brand-new service do the trick?

I believe my local area plans to rely entirely on 156s. However, services are still predominantly 142 operated, and Northern is only receiving five extra 156s. Good trains, but they are no longer manufactured.

I still say, what we need was never new flagship trains. We need direct pacer replacements.

Don't forget with completion of North West electrification the number of Diesel routes will decrease, so some EMU's replace DMU's, TPE will take over Northern Local services on the North TPE route, some current services worked in pairs my go to a single 2 or 3 carriage train in combination in some cases with a more frequent service, and such as the 158+Dogbox I was on a few weeks ago may get replaced by a single 3 Car train.

 

[MML]

Rather than the additional expense of making Class 153 PRM compliant or costly conversion back to 2-car Class 155, why can't the 18 x Class 153 just be operated in 1x156+1x153 formation increasing a 2-car to a 3-car unit when additional capacity is required ? In some cases, the Class 153 only being added at peak times.

So long as the Class 156 is PRM compliant, surely this would be sufficient not to require changes to the Class 153 ?

 

[Jamesrob637]

150136 is in new livery as of today (09/08)

 

[mikemcniven]

150136 is in new livery as of today (09/08)

Do you know what service it's on today please, and yeah it retuned a day or two ago from Crewe it's in the new new livery with "Northern by Arriva" and the different coloured "n" s

 

[coxxy]

Well the eventual total number of carriages is 925 which is about 150 up on the current total we have (excluding sub-leased ones) - getting on towards a 20% increase. Plus all of those carriages will be to a much higher standard and 98 will have a greater capacity

I'm not here to cheerlead the company, but realistically I think it's about as good as it's going to get out of the current system

It's been needed for many years there is no doubt about that.

Whilst I agree the standard of units will be a lot better I just fall to see how Northern are going to increase the number of services as well as increase the number of available seats on the routes they have said about.

Don't get me wrong, Northern have people a lot more intelligent than me that are working it out and clearly know how they are going to do it but I just can't work it out unless there was an order of class 230's been made..

 

[Bornin1980s]

Don't forget with completion of North West electrification the number of Diesel routes will decrease, so some EMU's replace DMU's, TPE will take over Northern Local services on the North TPE route, some current services worked in pairs my go to a single 2 or 3 carriage train in combination in some cases with a more frequent service, and such as the 158+Dogbox I was on a few weeks ago may get replaced by a single 3 Car train.

How's the North West electrification going? There's not much time before the Pacers have to go.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

These are the figures I have for carriages, just to show my working

Currently, 569 diesel carriages, but that's 544 without sub-leased, and 235 electric

After, 612 diesel (572 by May 2020) and 313 electric (not including the extra 20 319 carriages that are going off-lease in Feb 2020). 612 + 313 = 925 carriages

Technically, we are refurbishing 261 trains but that includes the extra five 319s we're not keeping and the 16 tbcs, and excludes the two 150s that are already PRM-compliant. In total that's 361 units at the end of it, up from the current total of 335 (which was previously 333 before the latest Thameslink 319s arrived)

The problem is there's inconsistency in the figures in terms of what is and isn't being counted - i.e. the figures of the number of carriages in May 2020 doesn't count some trains, whereas the number of trains we're refurbishing does count them

 

[northwichcat]

How's the North West electrification going? There's not much time before the Pacers have to go.

The Bolton corridor is expected to have usable wires by December, Blackpool North line by next May. Wigan-Bolton and Manchester-Stalybridge have been delayed (no confirmed date at present) which is why some 319s are being fitted with diesel engines to become bi-modes. Windermere-Oxenholme electrification has been dropped and the current plan is for 'alternative technology' trains to serve Windermere by 2021.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Rather than the additional expense of making Class 153 PRM compliant or costly conversion back to 2-car Class 155, why can't the 18 x Class 153 just be operated in 1x156+1x153 formation increasing a 2-car to a 3-car unit when additional capacity is required ? In some cases, the Class 153 only being added at peak times.

So long as the Class 156 is PRM compliant, surely this would be sufficient not to require changes to the Class 153 ?

If anything involving 153s was to happen, more likely would be retaining 7 in order to extend the 155s to 3-car I'd have thought. Admittedly for mostly aesthetic reasons, mind!

In that case, AFAIK the 153 vehicle would not need any modifications to work with a compliant unit, though the only way it could work alone in service (due to a fault on said compliant unit, for example) would be with the existing small toilet locked out or removed. In that case I assume it would be in contravention of the Northern franchise agreement in any case.

Sandwiching it in the middle of a unit would be more likely, with the cab desks deactivated and possibly the "new" cab removed.

 

[M1544]

158753 going back by all accounts. This has already had stage 1 refurbishment so not sure why it's going back

158753 returned back to Neville hill this afternoon, so was away less than a week.

 

[yorksrob]

Well. I travelled on a refurbished 156 yesterday on a long journey (2 hours plus) and unfortunately it wasn't successful. The reason being the vacuum toilet (which seemed to be about the only thing different from an unrefurbished example) was, unsurprisingly out of use. The train staff had no idea why this was the case and tried to reset it, but to no avail unfortunately. I ended up bailing and getting the next service which mercifully was an unrefurbished 156 and had a toilet that worked.

I foretold on this very forum that fitting vacuum toilets to two carriage regional units would be an unmitigated disaster, but I wasn't expecting to be proved right so soon. One can only wonder why Arriva have chosen to go with this abysmal design which goes out of service at the drop of a hat, instead of adapting the far more resilient approach of fitting a retention tank to a flush lavatory - as has been proven to work perfectly well on their 158's.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I believe my local area plans to rely entirely on 156s. Good trains, but they are no longer manufactured.

I still say, what we need was never new flagship trains. We need direct pacer replacements.

The 156's could always be reformed into two sets of hybrids - one with two toilets and another with one. This does mean that Northern would have to order a load of centre coaches for their two car 195's and order in additional three (or even four) car 195's, so that there is enough rolling stock to not only fully replace the Pacers but also to replace some of the 15x's stock which in my view should all be reformed into hybrids - more hybrids = more seats being avaliable.

I've mentioned it before about retaining fourteen class 153's which would be inserted into the centre of the seven 155's to beef up the fleet where the cabs are made redundant and the bogs are locked out of use.

If anything involving 153s was to happen, more likely would be retaining 7 in order to extend the 155s to 3-car I'd have thought. Admittedly for mostly aesthetic reasons, mind!

In that case, AFAIK the 153 vehicle would not need any modifications to work with a compliant unit, though the only way it could work alone in service (due to a fault on said compliant unit, for example) would be with the existing small toilet locked out or removed. In that case I assume it would be in contravention of the Northern franchise agreement in any case.

Sandwiching it in the middle of a unit would be more likely, with the cab desks deactivated and possibly the "new" cab removed.

I've always though of reforming the seven 155's into four cars, as this way there's more seats and most of Northern's stations can hold a four car unit.