Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[northwichcat]

Heard yesterday that Northern (the new franchise) may be getting 10 class 185s to cover the planned hourly Barrow/Windermere service.

The Northern and TPE ITTs mentioned an initial loan of 185s from TPE to Northern for services which transfer but 10 sounds a lot unless TPE are about to acquire some other existing rolling stock and the 185s will be used to cover Blackpool services as well until electrification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Northern and TPE ITTs mentioned an initial loan of 185s from TPE to Northern for services which transfer but 10 sounds a lot unless TPE are about to acquire some other existing rolling stock and the 185s will be used to cover Blackpool services as well until electrification.

What would the likely TPE replacement stock be...and from where?

 

[thealexweb]

Heard yesterday that Northern (the new franchise) may be getting 10 class 185s to cover the planned hourly Barrow/Windermere service.

Sadly we have not been offered the hourly service to Cumbria (alternating between Windermere and Barrow-in-Furness) that existed in the past. We have offered only eight Barrows and two Windermere's per direction per day. What is planned is certainly better than what we have at the moment, but only because so much of Transpennine North West has already cut away. We should not be in position where we are aiming for a service only slightly worse than what we had five to ten years ago.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not entirely done deal yet but looks like TfGM have won the argument to gain control of 97 local rail stations.

It is expected that shortly after the franchises start in April 2016 a deed of variation will be issued transferring them to TfGM control on 99 year leases from the second half of 2016.

They are currently looking at borrowing to invest in disability access improvements and rolling out extra revenue generating opportunities (similar to M Go stores on Merseyrail).

 

[northwichcat]

Not entirely done deal yet but looks like TfGM have won the argument to gain control of 97 local rail stations.

It is expected that shortly after the franchises start in April 2016 a deed of variation will be issued transferring them to TfGM control on 99 year leases from the second half of 2016.

They are currently looking at borrowing to invest in disability access improvements and rolling out extra revenue generating opportunities (similar to M Go stores on Merseyrail).

This is the same TfGM who's contractors are over 9 months behind schedule getting working lifts at Altrincham Interchange. Maybe we can expect all Greater Manchester stations to be properly accessible by 2115 if TfGM gets control of them all. :roll:

 

[Aictos]

Not entirely done deal yet but looks like TfGM have won the argument to gain control of 97 local rail stations.

It is expected that shortly after the franchises start in April 2016 a deed of variation will be issued transferring them to TfGM control on 99 year leases from the second half of 2016.

They are currently looking at borrowing to invest in disability access improvements and rolling out extra revenue generating opportunities (similar to M Go stores on Merseyrail).

Any idea which 97 local stations they will be?

 

[Philip]

The Northern and TPE ITTs mentioned an initial loan of 185s from TPE to Northern for services which transfer but 10 sounds a lot unless TPE are about to acquire some other existing rolling stock and the 185s will be used to cover Blackpool services as well until electrification.

Would it not be a better idea for five 3-car class 175s to be loaned to Northern each day to operate the new service and in return (following electrification and DMU cascading) ten 2-car 158s can go to ATW and run in multiple to replace the five 175/1 diagrams. It would be more capacity for Northern than using 185s and Arriva would also gain in capacity with some Marches services going from 3-car 175 to 4-car 158.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would it not be a better idea for five 3-car class 175s to be loaned to Northern each day to operate the new service and in return (following electrification and DMU cascading) ten 2-car 158s can go to ATW and run in multiple to replace the five 175/1 diagrams. It would be more capacity for Northern than using 185s and Arriva would also gain in capacity with some Marches services going from 3-car 175 to 4-car 158.

That brings up the interesting question of First Class on Northern services.
The 185s have it, but 158s/175s don't.
So will Northern declassify its 185s or market a First Class service on "Northern Express" services transferred from TPE?
The DfT doesn't normally specify anything about First Class, and the fares are not regulated.
But they have specified that transferred services should not be downgraded in quality.

I don't think the WG will part with 175s, at least until the new W&B franchise in 2018 and a new fleet plan.
ATW needs a consistent 3-car service more than anything else at the moment.
There are too many overcrowded 2-car 175s about.

 

[northwichcat]

Any idea which 97 local stations they will be?

Presumably that would be all the Northern Rail managed stations in Greater Manchester and maybe the TPE managed stations as well?

That brings up the interesting question of First Class on Northern services.
The 185s have it, but 158s/175s don't.
So will Northern declassify its 185s or market a First Class service on "Northern Express" services transferred from TPE?
The DfT doesn't normally specify anything about First Class, and the fares are not regulated.
But they have specified that transferred services should not be downgraded in quality.

I don't think the WG will part with 175s, at least until the new W&B franchise in 2018 and a new fleet plan.
ATW needs a consistent 3-car service more than anything else at the moment.
There are too many overcrowded 2-car 175s about.

As you say the 'Regional Express' criteria came about because of concerns raised that if services were transferred from TPE to Northern the quality of service would be much lower. As far as I'm aware provision of trolley services, 2+2 seating, tables, air conditioning etc. are required but whether FC is provided is for the bidders to decide. Given FC fares exist in the system presumably they wouldn't be withdrawn overnight if the 185s remain on the same lines under a different operator, especially considering those 185s will be loaned from TPE so the winning Northern bidder cannot remove the FC section from the trains they'll be using.

The new Northern service between Chester and Leeds via Bradford should help reduce overcrowding issues on ATW services between Chester and Manchester. If TPE opt to extend some Airport services to Crewe that may also help relieve ATW overcrowding between Crewe and Manchester.

I think the problem with 175s is First Group went for Cordia trains at the time everyone else went for Turbostars meaning that there aren't any 175s being freed up by other franchises. I'm not sure if it would be viable to turn the 175s in to 2 and 4 car versions with the intention of either using a 4 car version or a pair of 2 car versions on most services, but then ideally you'd also need to add corridor connections to the 2 car ones, especially if they are using on services where a trolley service is provided.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ATW needs a consistent 3-car service more than anything else at the moment.
There are too many overcrowded 2-car 175s about.

Amen to that.

 

[Haydn1971]

ATW needs a consistent 3-car service more than anything else at the moment. There are too many overcrowded 2-car 175s about.

I must say that the ones I see pulling through Manchester always appear pretty lightly loaded - do these services get busier elsewhere on their respective routes or am I just not seeing the busy ones ?

 

[northwichcat]

I must say that the ones I see pulling through Manchester always appear pretty lightly loaded - do these services get busier elsewhere on their respective routes or am I just not seeing the busy ones ?

Possibly both. The North Wales/Chester services are busier west of Oxford Rd and the South Wales services are busier south of Stockport. There is also a sizeable commuter flow between Warrington and Runcorn East. ATW services are not generally as bad for overcrowding as Liverpool to Scarborough services are though.

 

[WatcherZero]

Any idea which 97 local stations they will be?

There are 91 rail stations in GM and a furher 6 in their ticketing zone which derbyshire has given them responsibility for (glossop line and New Mills area) which correlates with the 97 figure theyve stated, but i dont think they will gain the NR managed ones.

 

[Philip]

Presumably that would be all the Northern Rail managed stations in Greater Manchester and maybe the TPE managed stations as well?




I think the problem with 175s is First Group went for Cordia trains at the time everyone else went for Turbostars meaning that there aren't any 175s being freed up by other franchises. I'm not sure if it would be viable to turn the 175s in to 2 and 4 car versions with the intention of either using a 4 car version or a pair of 2 car versions on most services, but then ideally you'd also need to add corridor connections to the 2 car ones, especially if they are using on services where a trolley service is provided.

Wasn't quite what I meant. Northern can give ATW all 10 of their 2-car 158s for use on five of the Manchester-South Wales diagrams currently worked by 175/1s, so the 158s can run in multiple as 4-coach trains on the busier services.

For the new regional express service a 3-car 175 would seem reasonable enough - all standard class, 100mph running between Preston and Oxenholme. There would be more seats than on a 185 and if it's deemed an express service then a 175 is more suited to this than the commuter layout of 170s and 185s. In the days when 175s worked for FNW and TPE a couple would come off Chester each morning and run ECS to Manchester via Wigan and also to Blackpool before starting the passenger runs so the home depot location isn't a huge problem.

Class 175s ought to still be cleared for the Lakes routes too? They last worked up there in December 06.

 

[geoffk]

A problem with 175s for Northern is that they don't couple to anything else. Better to keep them all together. Shame they weren't all built as 3-car.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I must say that the ones I see pulling through Manchester always appear pretty lightly loaded - do these services get busier elsewhere on their respective routes or am I just not seeing the busy ones ?

It is a long way from Manchester to Milford Haven and loadings from Crewe and Shrewsbury can add numbers even before the route from Hereford onwards into South Wales is reached.

I only mention Milford Haven, as every time that I travel from Wilmslow on that that mid-morning Milford Haven service, it has been a 2-car unit...:roll:

 

[Driver068]

Could anyone comment on or provide any information/links to the propose announcement of the new Northern Rail franchise which has been put on hold until next year due to the on going discussions and the need for the replacement of the 142's (Pacers) mainly in the North East area of the UK

 

[Simon11]

Where did you hear this?

I can't remember which franchise is due to be awarded first (Northern or TPE), but my understand is that rolling stock for each bid winner will be analysed in case of each winner bidding wanting the same stock.

If indeed there is a delay to the award of the Northern franchise, this may also lead to a delay other bids such as the Greater Anglia since they may also be wanting to use the same stock!

 

[47802]

Is that correct, sounds like the North is about to be shafted again probably with the dreaded tube trains, and revamped 144's

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Both Northern and TPE franchise awards (ie preferred contractor) are due to be made before the end of the year, with no specific date set, for the new franchises to start on 1 April 2016.
I don't think there is any delay to the schedule.
Northern is probably the hardest to resolve, with all the options to be reviewed.
DfT will not announce TPE separately unless there is no dependency on the Northern franchise which seems unlikely.

 

[D365]

Is that correct, sounds like the North is about to be shafted again probably with the dreaded tube trains, and revamped 144's

The D78 Stock is not a deep-level 'tube' train... :roll:

 

[Camden]

And a handful of people on an railways internet forum bemoaning them doesn't make them "dreaded" either.

 

[Driver068]

The information I speak upon is from a colleague within the Rail industry and has mentioned it has been in a publication recently. The franchise was due to be awarded in October 2015, not next year. So I am trying to establish which publication this information and it also seems to be common knowledge within the RMT union and Northern Rail employees.

 

[WatcherZero]

Both Northern and TPE franchise awards (ie preferred contractor) are due to be made before the end of the year, with no specific date set, with the new franchises to start on 1 April 2016.
I don't think there is any delay to the schedule.
Northern is probably the hardest to resolve, with all the options to be reviewed.
DfT will not announce TPE separately unless there is no dependency on the Northern franchise which seems unlikely.

Talk is the TPE award is on schedule for being made in November with the Northern one following approx a month later, but the Northern one might miss the closing of Parliament in mid December and slip into the following year. Of course that's only talk at this point. The TPE one will also include a clause that allows the government to make changes after its signed to ensure compatibility with the following Northern award.

Awards were originally supposed to be October/September and November but the last update to the franchising schedule published by the government in July had them both down as December. There was a couple of months delay resulting from other awards running late and ITT being published late.

 

[swt_passenger]

Awards were originally supposed to be October/September and November but the last update to the franchising schedule published by the government in July had them both down as December..

Not so secret after all then...

Internal railway gossip reflects official information shock...

 

[Driver068]

Greetings, I have just come across this forum, not had chance too trawl through all these replys but can anyone comment on the suppose delay to the announcement to the Northern Rail franchise due to the ongoing debate on the replacement of the 142's

 

[kjhskj75]

The "pausing" of TP electrification is going to throw all kinds of spanners into the works. Bidders will not know what their traction requirements are going to be.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is that correct, sounds like the North is about to be shafted again probably with the dreaded tube trains, and revamped 144's

I can only speak for myself, but my most recent journey on a pacer (144015, for the record) was on Friday evening and despite being for only one stop my knees and shoulders ached afterwards with the bounce. Compared to my last journey on D-stock (admittedly about 4 years ago, and with less baggage) I almost hope that we DO get the "recycled underground trains" rather than them being ruled out for spurious political point-scoring.

 

[47802]

The D78 Stock is not a deep-level 'tube' train... :roll:

Be pedantic if you like but its still a tube train in my eyes, and I don't really need anybody to tell me the difference between surface line stock and deep level tube stock

 

[WatcherZero]

The "pausing" of TP electrification is going to throw all kinds of spanners into the works. Bidders will not know what their traction requirements are going to be.

The ITT included that electrification timelines were unclear and so bidders should assume diesel over the lifetime with amendments made by variation in the franchise agreement at a later point when dates became known.