Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[Starmill]

The answer is in your own words there, that the people getting on and off at Preston will not be so numerous, as they will just continue sitting on the 4 carriage section going to Liverpool. If the Manchester portion is busy, it won't be as busy as you think. The number of people who join Transpennine Express services to and from Scotland at Preston is generally a large proportion of the train.

Preston is the key interchange for people going to and from Liverpool. There isn't currently a decent way of counting these passengers due to split ticketing (advance tickets from Preston and an open return from Liverpool to Preston being cost effective). Also affects some other places like Warrington, Wigan. This was spoken about by the official Scottish response to the ITT which has requested direct Liverpool services.

I think you've missed the point - 8 coaches are already full from Manchester!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I am surprised Central Trains got away with this in all honesty. Not only would it have required more units but also breaking east / west linkages. It wouldn't be acceptable to break Cross Country at Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle in the name of performance.

Ah, but CrossCountry did. In the later days of virgins tenure the bournemouth/scotland services were chopped into two separate trains at Manchester Piccadilly. This was also the precursor to those services transferring to TPE althought it wasnt know at the time. Internally it was oft quoted as being a performance and reliability improver, but no doubt as a result of some knowitall meddling. These services were notorious for running late thru manchester and subsequently affecting WCML paths beyond Preston. Liverpool and Portsmouth services were also axed off the network as pathing into and out of liverpool was so troublesome services were often running extremely late by the evening. 1O31 19:48 (ish) LIV-GTW (21:33 off BHM) was rarely under an hour late when it ran and significantly affected the crewing schedules of the Reading and Brighton crews who worked it

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the early 1980's BR had a policy of introducing new through workings over routes which previously would have involved multiple changes and/or a journey via London. Many of these were loco hauled. This is when the Liverpool-Norwich trains were introduced, I don't think that there had ever been a through N.W. to East Anglia train before. N.W. to South Coast trains were introduced on a year round daily timetable and there was even a Man Picc to Newhaven Habour train with a change from electric to diesel traction on the West London line. I believe Yorkshire to North Wales via Man Vic trains were also introduced at this time and these have sadly been lost.

You're forgetting the long-standing North Country Continental from Liverpool to Harwich.
It's original route was via Warrington Central, Manchester Central, Woodhead, Sheffield Victoria, Lincoln Central and the GN/GE Joint Line to March and then Ipswich and Harwich.
There were also portions from Liverpool Exchange via the Calder Valley and Leeds/York via Doncaster.
BR eventually cut it back to Manchester via the Hope Valley, and in its final guise around 1990 it ran for a short while via the North London line and WCML to Manchester.
But there were indeed very few NW services to Norwich, mainly summer holiday trains to Great Yarmouth.

 

[ianhr]

Oh yes, thanks for that reminder, I had forgotten the Liverpool Central-Harwich and it's later variants.
There were some N.E. to East Anglia through trains too, at least in the 1960's, including a Glasgow Queen St-Colchester!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In the early 1980's BR had a policy of introducing new through workings over routes which previously would have involved multiple changes and/or a journey via London. Many of these were loco hauled. This is when the Liverpool-Norwich trains were introduced, I don't think that there had ever been a through N.W. to East Anglia train before. N.W. to South Coast trains were introduced on a year round daily timetable and there was even a Man Picc to Newhaven Habour train with a change from electric to diesel traction on the West London line. I believe Yorkshire to North Wales via Man Vic trains were also introduced at this time and these have sadly been lost.

Didn't there used to be a Preston(?) to Harwich International service that was a 156 working? There was a Wakefield Westgate to Llandudno service in the 1990s, which led to the Huddersfield to Wakefield service being a through running from Manchester Victoria in early privatisation days. I think Transpennine services through to North Wales ended when Victoria was downgraded though.

 

[northwichcat]

which led to the Huddersfield to Wakefield service being a through running from Manchester Victoria in early privatisation days.

Indeed. NWT/FNW operated a Victoria-Huddersfield-Wakefield service until 2004. In 2004 Huddersfield-Wakefield transferred to ATN and was tagged on to the Leeds-Huddersfield via Bradford service.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I know what you mean, but weren't most of the services initially combined relatively recently anyway in an attempt to use stock more efficiently?

Yes, they were: Cambridge-Birmingham and Birmingham-Liverpool was one example. There was a brief craze for the ex-Regional operators to combine services - W&W did it too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, they were: Cambridge-Birmingham and Birmingham-Liverpool was one example. There was a brief craze for the ex-Regional operators to combine services - W&W did it too.

There was a relatively long period of almost all (rather than just the odd one as today) Penistone line services being combined with Sheffield to Retford services, with the rather predictable results of many of the old dears from the likes of Stocksmoor and Shepley not realising that the 'Retford' service from Huddersfield was indeed their train.

 

[Ianigsy]

Initially what happened was that the hourly Liverpool-Sheffield with 31/4s (with occasional extensions to Hull and a Saturday extension to Great Yarmouth) became hourly 156s running Cambridge-Blackpool or Norwich-Liverpool alternate hours, with connections theoretically made at Manchester Oxford Road. I say theoretically, because the one time that we tried as a family to use the service to get to Sheffield, the shuttle from Liverpool was delayed en route and the Blackpool-Cambridge was allowed to leave Oxford Road before the Liverpool connection arrived (and this was circa 1988, for those who think that connections not being held is a new thing!).

I don't think the Blackpool-Cambridge route lasted more than a year or two- my recollection is that by the time it went over to 158s the route was Liverpool-Norwich with the odd diversion to Stansted Airport or Cambridge for operating reasons in East Anglia. Some of the selfsame 156s who ran the express services over the CLC route about 27 years ago can still be seen working the stoppers!

 

[Boysteve]

Initially what happened was that the hourly Liverpool-Sheffield with 31/4s (with occasional extensions to Hull and a Saturday extension to Great Yarmouth) became hourly 156s running Cambridge-Blackpool or Norwich-Liverpool alternate hours, with connections theoretically made at Manchester Oxford Road. I say theoretically, because the one time that we tried as a family to use the service to get to Sheffield, the shuttle from Liverpool was delayed en route and the Blackpool-Cambridge was allowed to leave Oxford Road before the Liverpool connection arrived (and this was circa 1988, for those who think that connections not being held is a new thing!).

I don't think the Blackpool-Cambridge route lasted more than a year or two- my recollection is that by the time it went over to 158s the route was Liverpool-Norwich with the odd diversion to Stansted Airport or Cambridge for operating reasons in East Anglia. Some of the selfsame 156s who ran the express services over the CLC route about 27 years ago can still be seen working the stoppers!

Yes I remember this period vividly! The route was launched with 156 but it was supposed to 158's however they were delivered over 2 years late, possible more! I remember catching the 06:10 Manchester to Norwich which ran as a stopper to Sheffield then Regional Railways Express onwards to Norwich with the typical stopping pattern seen today. For a period the direct line out of Nottingham was blocked and the service actually ran through Beeston and Toton yard to reach Sheffield, actually a few per day also went via Derby! I also remember the 155's being temporarily withdrawn for several months after introduction to services like Manchester to Cardiff and Portsmouth to Cardiff. The Norwich Crown Point 156's were so reliable only 1 spare unit was needed instead of the original 4 to cover Norwich/Camb/Ipsw - Brum/Liverpool/Blackpool workings and units were reshuffled.
The new service pattern was great when introduced in the late 1980's as it gave hourly (semi)fast direct trains Peterborough - Nottingham for the first time and also hourly to Stamford/Oakham/Melton Mowbray. It was a mini revolution at the time. It was for all these reasons I retain a soft spot for the Metro Cammel 156's, my favourite BR second generation DMU. Oh dear now I feel really sad!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm with you on the Class 156 - the true successor to the Met Camm Class 101 and in my view likely to be around just as long.

 

[northwichcat]

Just looking at this in the Northern ITT

Has been subject to such refurbishment as is necessary in order that
passengers will perceive the overall design, internal ambience, condition and
facilities, and the external condition, as being thoroughly modern, comfortable
and comparable to that of new or nearly-new rolling stock (so far as possible
given the engineering and technical constraints of the fleets in question);

Giving modern interiors to old trains isn't usually a problem. However, that seems to say they need to have modern looking exteriors as well.

Maybe Porterbrook's new 319 fronts: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf (Page 18-19) will go ahead and if they can do that to 319s presumably they can do it to Sprinters as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe Porterbrook's new 319 fronts: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf (Page 18-19) will go ahead and if they can do that to 319s presumably they can do it to Sprinters as well.

The difference in both types of front end is indeed very striking as the original Class 319 front ends really do look terribly dated in 2015.

 

[Camden]

if they can do that to 319s presumably they can do it to Sprinters as well.

Or Pacers?

 

[northwichcat]

Or Pacers?

Sprinters have the same type of body as 319s. Pacers have the same type of body as buses, so maybe they could be upgraded to look more like Dennis Darts?

 

[po8crg]

TPE has the ability to include Liverpool-Scotland services in their bid. These would presumably be done by running a four-car EMU from Liverpool (via St Helens Central and Wigan North Western) which would combine with a 4-8 car train from Manchester (via Bolton) at Preston. The WCML platforms could surely cope with 12*20m if they can handle 11*23m. If they had more 350/4s they'd probably be running that service right now.

AIUI, TPE has ten 350/4s, and would need twelve to cover all their diagrams. Presumably six more would allow single units to/from Liverpool on the same diagrams, so that's 18 units.

18 (or even 20, if I'm a little off with my my maths) 4-car units would be a pretty small order, but I wonder if they could tack it on to the Scotrail order for AT200s? That would seem like pretty much the correct spec for that service, and TPE would find plenty of people interested in their 350/4s - LM for a start.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE has the ability to include Liverpool-Scotland services in their bid. These would presumably be done by running a four-car EMU from Liverpool (via St Helens Central and Wigan North Western) which would combine with a 4-8 car train from Manchester (via Bolton) at Preston. The WCML platforms could surely cope with 12*20m if they can handle 11*23m. If they had more 350/4s they'd probably be running that service right now.

AIUI, TPE has ten 350/4s, and would need twelve to cover all their diagrams. Presumably six more would allow single units to/from Liverpool on the same diagrams, so that's 18 units.

18 (or even 20, if I'm a little off with my my maths) 4-car units would be a pretty small order, but I wonder if they could tack it on to the Scotrail order for AT200s? That would seem like pretty much the correct spec for that service, and TPE would find plenty of people interested in their 350/4s - LM for a start.

There's also a Blackpool-Scotland option so they could propose adding Blackpool portions on to the services which don't have Liverpool portions.

Also there's an option for extending Airport services to Crewe but I think if bidders were going to do that it would make a lot more sense to extend North TPE services to Crewe opposed to Scottish services.

Question is if TPE order bi-mode for Liverpool-Newcastle, would they want the same type of train for Airport-Scotland opposed to two small fleets?

 

[edwin_m]

I think only platforms 1 and 2 at Glasgow Central could take 12 cars, and I'm not sure if TPE use the long platforms at Edinburgh.

 

[northwichcat]

I think only platforms 1 and 2 at Glasgow Central could take 12 cars, and I'm not sure if TPE use the long platforms at Edinburgh.

DfT seem to have been hinting they want TPE to provide extra capacity to Edinburgh because the West Coast franchise provides a lot more capacity to Glasgow than Edinburgh, so it might be TPE will have to use different platforms at Edinburgh as a result of changes.

 

[Philip]

Why have Scottish TPE services become so busy that they need 8 or more coaches? Until a couple of years ago most of the services were 3-coach 185s north of Preston, some all the way from Manchester and whilst they were busy they weren't like sardines that often from what I remember. Has it become much busier in that space of time?

 

[northwichcat]

Why have Scottish TPE services become so busy that they need 8 or more coaches? Until a couple of years ago most of the services were 3-coach 185s north of Preston, some all the way from Manchester and whilst they were busy they weren't like sardines that often from what I remember. Has it become much busier in that space of time?

A few observations

• a 4 car 350 is only around 10m longer than a 3 car 185 and some of that extra length is taken up by an extra inter-carriage connection and the additional toilet.
• the number of Barrow/Windermere services have been cut back significantly over the past couple of years so more passengers wanting Cumbria will probably be using Scottish services.
• the services have been re-timed and re-routed via Wigan so that might have resulted in the amount of demand.
• a couple of years ago there were some services which were rammed 3 car 185s north of Preston or 6 car 185s north of Preston.
• passenger demand has been increasing at an exponential rate on certain lines in the North of England in recent years, so a huge increase in demand regardless of the rolling stock and frequency can't be ruled out.

 

[Philip]

A few observations

• a 4 car 350 is only around 10m longer than a 3 car 185 and some of that extra length is taken up by an extra inter-carriage connection and the additional toilet.
• the number of Barrow/Windermere services have been cut back significantly over the past couple of years so more passengers wanting Cumbria will probably be using Scottish services.
• the services have been re-timed and re-routed via Wigan so that might have resulted in the amount of demand.
• a couple of years ago there were some services which were rammed 3 car 185s north of Preston or 6 car 185s north of Preston.
• passenger demand has been increasing at an exponential rate on certain lines in the North of England in recent years, so a huge increase in demand regardless of the rolling stock and frequency can't be ruled out.

Some services will have been rammed but they did often get quieter once past Preston. Also not so long ago Virgin deemed 4-car Voyagers as suitable for the whole route, at a 2-hourly frequency.

 

[darloscott]

Its another classic example of build the service and people will use it, similar to the half hourly frequency on XC's main routes. Another example of extra capacity being required that needs sorting.

 

[northwichcat]

Some services will have been rammed but they did often get quieter once past Preston. Also not so long ago Virgin deemed 4-car Voyagers as suitable for the whole route, at a 2-hourly frequency.

I saw 3 car 185s arriving at Preston from Scotland with over 200 people on board on more than one occasion. It certainly wasn't a case of 3 car 185s always having empty seats north of Preston.

Don't forget the 2 hourly Voyager was alongside an hourly Manchester Airport to Cumbria service, alternating between Barrow and Windermere, so it was 10 carriages between Manchester and Cumbria over a 2 hour period, now over some 2 hour periods it's just 8 and they're smaller carriages.

 

[hibtastic]

Why have Scottish TPE services become so busy that they need 8 or more coaches? Until a couple of years ago most of the services were 3-coach 185s north of Preston, some all the way from Manchester and whilst they were busy they weren't like sardines that often from what I remember. Has it become much busier in that space of time?

I'm a regular user of TPE and VTWC on the WCML to Edinburgh and I can tell you the extra capacity is needed. I've never known these trains to be as busy as they have been over the last few months.

People are now realising that the train is a great way to travel to places like Manchester Airport etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm a regular user of TPE and VTWC on the WCML to Edinburgh and I can tell you the extra capacity is needed. I've never known these trains to be as busy as they have been over the last few months.
People are now realising that the train is a great way to travel to places like Manchester Airport etc.

I think the trigger was the increase in VT Glasgow frequency north of Preston (it was only 2-hourly with other trains reversing at Lancaster until 2012).
That and using Pendolinos on the Birmingham services, then running them through to Euston.
It all meant the service north of Preston was much improved, and TPE have played their part with 350s and some more departures.
I'd like to know what movement from air to rail there has been in the last 3 years.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the trigger was the increase in VT frequency north of Preston (it was only 2-hourly with other trains reversing at Lancaster until 2012).
That and using Pendolinos on the Birmingham services, then running them through to Euston.
It all meant the service north of Preston was much improved, and TPE have played their part with 350s and some more departures.
I'd like to know what movement from air to rail there has been in the last 3 years.

Looks like demand for London to Edinburgh air services is still increasing overall but demand for Birmingham to Edinburgh air services is staying constant. Manchester to Edinburgh isn't a top 10 domestic route for Edinburgh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Airport#Busiest_routes

 

[hibtastic]

Some June 2015 pax figures for air travel:

EDI to Birmingham - 24,788 (0.2% growth from 2014)
EDI to Manchester - 10,438 (5.5% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Heathrow - 136,543 (-1.9% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Gatwick - 57,142 (-7.4% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Stansted - 53,882 (98% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Luton - 23,980 (4.5% growth from 2014)

 

[northwichcat]

EDI to London Heathrow - 136,543 (-1.9% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Gatwick - 57,142 (-7.4% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Stansted - 53,882 (98% growth from 2014)
EDI to London Luton - 23,980 (4.5% growth from 2014)

Sounds like Ryanair have done a good job of getting BA/Virgin Atlantic customers, opposed to rail taking them.

 

[Philip]

Heard yesterday that Northern (the new franchise) may be getting 10 class 185s to cover the planned hourly Barrow/Windermere service.