Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[notlob.divad]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2631589&postcount=4090

On the Class 700 deployment thread "Class377/5" has said that 8 more 319 units will be heading to Northern later this month.

I believe the previous batch had the door modifications to them, so I guess these 8 units will be the same and won't be able to just drop in to supplement existing services where there are problems. Does this mean that Northern will start the full scale refurbishment program on these units with Compatible toilets etc etc.

 

[Class377/5]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2631589&postcount=4090

On the Class 700 deployment thread "Class377/5" has said that 8 more 319 units will be heading to Northern later this month.

I believe the previous batch had the door modifications to them, so I guess these 8 units will be the same and won't be able to just drop in to supplement existing services where there are problems. Does this mean that Northern will start the full scale refurbishment program on these units with Compatible toilets etc etc.

Didn't realise this thread existed. Unit numbers are 319004/005/218/219/431/442/448/456.

They move go to Northern this month.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Didn't realise this thread existed. Unit numbers are 319004/005/218/219/431/442/448/456.
They move go to Northern this month.

Some of these currently have First Class and some 2+2 seating then?
Be interesting to see how they emerge from refurb. for Northern.
Not sure what they'll do with them for 18 months or so, unless they are going to replace 323s, as new wires will not be ready.

 

[Class377/5]

Some of these currently have First Class and some 2+2 seating then?
Be interesting to see how they emerge from refurb. for Northern.
Not sure what they'll do with them for 18 months or so, unless they are going to replace 323s, as new wires will not be ready.

My guess would be for 004/005 to be used to provide extra cover while others get work done on them?

 

[Mordac]

Some of these currently have First Class and some 2+2 seating then?
Be interesting to see how they emerge from refurb. for Northern.
Not sure what they'll do with them for 18 months or so, unless they are going to replace 323s, as new wires will not be ready.

Seeing as they keep going belly up, they'll need them just to provide a consistent service on the currently 319 operated services and start timing them for EMUs instead of Sprinters. That and allow them all to get the big refurb.

 

[Rail Bus]

What about the 331's, what services will they actually operate?

 

[Mordac]

What about the 331's, what services will they actually operate?

Whatever the 321s and 322s, and 323s now do, plus the Windermere and Blackpool Northern Connect services.

 

[Crossforth]

Could the 319s be used on the currently diesel operated Hazel Grove services?

 

[Geeves]

Not unless it gets diverted via Golborne and Wigan NW as Bolton is currently sans wires. I cant see it as the Chat Moss is pretty full after Newton Le Willows already with trains running back to back.

On Wnxx they are talking about a Wigan NW to Macclesfield or Stoke so maybe that will soak up some units where ever and which way it goes.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by notlob.divad
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost...postcount=4090

On the Class 700 deployment thread "Class377/5" has said that 8 more 319 units will be heading to Northern later this month.

Didn't realise this thread existed. Unit numbers are 319004/005/218/219/431/442/448/456.

They move go to Northern this month.

Previously reported as being 12 more 319s to move to Northern this year. 8 now, 4 later?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2606973&postcount=4314

 

[childwallblues]

Seeing as they keep going belly up, they'll need them just to provide a consistent service on the currently 319 operated services and start timing them for EMUs instead of Sprinters. That and allow them all to get the big refurb.

I have seen few (if any) 319 failures recently. Is their reliability improving?

 

[notlob.divad]

I have seen few (if any) 319 failures recently. Is their reliability improving?

0635 Liverpool - Manchester Vic on Tuesday and the subsequent return working were cancelled due to an issue with the traction equipment.

They certainly seemed to have got a better recovery plan in place, by the looks of the late night info on RTT, an extra unit is being left in a Platform at Liverpool and not returned to Allerton. I assume this is because one is permanently being left there as a recovery option for if any issue happen, so rather than it delaying/cancelling all subsequent services of that diagram, they can pick up from the next return to Lime Street.

Overall it does seem as if they have got to grips with whatever the issues where as there does appear to be a lot less disruption now.

 

[northwichcat]

Could the 319s be used on the currently diesel operated Hazel Grove services?

Not without a recast (so they don't run to Preston) and even then it would only be 1 unit required. There is now a 323 on an evening peak service to Hazel Grove, while the 142 operated service at 16:58 is part of the same diagram as the 17:58 Stockport-Chester so might create pathing problems to switch to a 319 and even then wouldn't free up a DMU.

 

[mandub]

I have seen few (if any) 319 failures recently. Is their reliability improving?

1 failed at Gatley Monday lunchtime

 

[Class377/5]

Previously reported as being 12 more 319s to move to Northern this year. 8 now, 4 later?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2606973&postcount=4314

Properly. Don't forget neither GTR nor Northern want all 12 to go in one go.

 

[fowler9]

I reckon any surplus units will be used for crew training until the wires are up on other routes. Just my thoughts and not exactly what is happening. Many 319 drivers got their training between South Parkway and Crewe where the 319's aren't used.

 

[notlob.divad]

I reckon any surplus units will be used for crew training until the wires are up on other routes. Just my thoughts and not exactly what is happening. Many 319 drivers got their training between South Parkway and Crewe where the 319's aren't used.

To be honest, I would not be surprised if somewhere down the line they did start running that stretch, as well as Manchester to Crewe stopping services. When they come around to re-franchising London-Midland, and Cross Country TOCs, I think they will want a similar split to what they have between Northern and Transpennine, with one taking the major intercity services and the other taking the local services. Making the current London Midlands Services just stop at South Parkway, Runcorn and Crewe and a 319 serving the all stops would be a good compromise.

However that is a way down the line, so we will have to see how things play out.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by childwallblues
I have seen few (if any) 319 failures recently. Is their reliability improving?

1 failed at Gatley Monday lunchtime

It was the unit working the 1045 Airport to Piccadilly. The reason given on RTT was a problem with the doors, but this appears unlikely given that it seems to have taken well over an hour to get it out of the way.

The 1055 Airport to Cleethorpes TPE was delayed by 70 minutes, and terminated at Piccadilly. Don't know why - it seemed to reappear at Sheffield!
The 1100 Airport to Glasgow TPE was delayed by 68 minutes and terminated at Preston. Here again, the reason for that isn't obvious.
The 1035 Crewe to Piccadilly via Airport (should have been 1116 ex-Airport) departed 1121, returned (in service) to Wilmslow, then operated to Piccadilly via Stockport.
The 1129 Airport to Blackpool was delayed by 46 minutes.
The 1140 Airport to Liverpool (electric) was delayed by 38 minutes.
Other services were cancelled Picc-Airport-Picc, and a few TPE services seem to have been cancelled due to problems elsewhere.
After the disruption, the first ex-Airport service to operate to time seems to have been the 1235 ATW Airport to Llandudno.

The 1140 ex-Airport was 56 minutes late into Lime Street, and the 1316 Lime Street to Airport, and 1440 return were cancelled, presumably as a consequence. The reason for the cancellations was given as a problem with the Traction Equipment, but this may have been a reference to the failure of the 1045 Airport to Picc, which was the original source of the delay.

A later failure involved the 1740 Airport to Liverpool, which was terminated at Lea Green due to a 'problem with the train'. The following 1802 ex-Victoria was delayed by 41 minutes (37 minutes setting off back from Lime Street to Victoria), and the ex-Newcastle TPE by 28 minutes.

So that was two significant failures in a day. It may be that the 319s are still getting into as much trouble as they have in the recent past, but these failures will often go unnoticed unless we are somehow caught up in the aftermath.

They certainly seemed to have got a better recovery plan in place, by the looks of the late night info on RTT, an extra unit is being left in a Platform at Liverpool and not returned to Allerton. I assume this is because one is permanently being left there as a recovery option for if any issue happen, so rather than it delaying/cancelling all subsequent services of that diagram, they can pick up from the next return to Lime Street.

According to RTT two units are stabled at Lime Street overnight, every night of the week except Saturday. This isn't a new thing, either in principle or quantity, it's existed for a while, and certainly predates the latest changes. I believe one or two diesel units may also stable at Lime Street overnight.

The 319s which stable don't do so for the purpose of standby, since they constitute the final two 319 arrivals of the day (M/F ex Preston and Manchester Victoria, Sun both ex-Manchester Airport - of course), and the next morning they form the first and third 319 departures of the day (0516 Manchester Airport and 0532 Wigan North Western).

 

[mandub]

It was the unit working the 1045 Airport to Piccadilly. The reason given on RTT was a problem with the doors, but this appears unlikely given that it seems to have taken well over an hour to get it out of the way.

I just know that doors closed OK but a hazard remained illuminated and driver couldn't take power. After loads of checks with maintenance control they raised TIS and went back to Picc

 

[Bovverboy]

I just know that doors closed OK but a hazard remained illuminated and driver couldn't take power. After loads of checks with maintenance control they raised TIS and went back to Picc

The acronym TIS hasn't been used in the previous 4,338 posts on this forum, but I think I'm safe in presuming that, in this context, it stands for Traction Interlock Switch - TIS can have other meanings in railway parlance.

Surely, if the ultimate solution to the situation was to boot the passengers off, flick a switch, and go, it wouldn't (or perhaps shouldn't) have taken 70 or so minutes to decide that such action was appropriate, given that it is a busy stretch of line, and there would have been plenty of other services which could have conceivably picked up at Gatley and the three following stations?

 

[Loop & Link]

Can't just operate the TIS and away you go - fault finding first when that's been exhausted you have to authorisation from the Duty Control Manager/Maintenance Controller to operate the TIS.

 

[jshaw]

It was the unit working the 1045 Airport to Piccadilly. The reason given on RTT was a problem with the doors, but this appears unlikely given that it seems to have taken well over an hour to get it out of the way.

The 1055 Airport to Cleethorpes TPE was delayed by 70 minutes, and terminated at Piccadilly. Don't know why - it seemed to reappear at Sheffield!
The 1100 Airport to Glasgow TPE was delayed by 68 minutes and terminated at Preston. Here again, the reason for that isn't obvious.
The 1035 Crewe to Piccadilly via Airport (should have been 1116 ex-Airport) departed 1121, returned (in service) to Wilmslow, then operated to Piccadilly via Stockport.
The 1129 Airport to Blackpool was delayed by 46 minutes.
The 1140 Airport to Liverpool (electric) was delayed by 38 minutes.
Other services were cancelled Picc-Airport-Picc, and a few TPE services seem to have been cancelled due to problems elsewhere.
After the disruption, the first ex-Airport service to operate to time seems to have been the 1235 ATW Airport to Llandudno.

The 1140 ex-Airport was 56 minutes late into Lime Street, and the 1316 Lime Street to Airport, and 1440 return were cancelled, presumably as a consequence. The reason for the cancellations was given as a problem with the Traction Equipment, but this may have been a reference to the failure of the 1045 Airport to Picc, which was the original source of the delay.

A later failure involved the 1740 Airport to Liverpool, which was terminated at Lea Green due to a 'problem with the train'. The following 1802 ex-Victoria was delayed by 41 minutes (37 minutes setting off back from Lime Street to Victoria), and the ex-Newcastle TPE by 28 minutes.

So that was two significant failures in a day. It may be that the 319s are still getting into as much trouble as they have in the recent past, but these failures will often go unnoticed unless we are somehow caught up in the aftermath.



According to RTT two units are stabled at Lime Street overnight, every night of the week except Saturday. This isn't a new thing, either in principle or quantity, it's existed for a while, and certainly predates the latest changes. I believe one or two diesel units may also stable at Lime Street overnight.

The 319s which stable don't do so for the purpose of standby, since they constitute the final two 319 arrivals of the day (M/F ex Preston and Manchester Victoria, Sun both ex-Manchester Airport - of course), and the next morning they form the first and third 319 departures of the day (0516 Manchester Airport and 0532 Wigan North Western).

The one that broke a Gatley was engine trouble I believe.

 

[Bovverboy]

Can't just operate the TIS and away you go - fault finding first when that's been exhausted you have to authorisation from the Duty Control Manager/Maintenance Controller to operate the TIS.

Quite, I knew it wouldn't be up to the driver to take it upon himself to decide when to operate the TIS, but I wouldn't have expected the decision to take 70 minutes to make, whoever might be making it.

 

[8J]

Maybe the alleged additional units are going to cover for the current fleet to go for PRM-TSI modifications? After all 2020 is creeping up on us now.

 

[notlob.divad]

Maybe the alleged additional units are going to cover for the current fleet to go for PRM-TSI modifications? After all 2020 is creeping up on us now.

Reading the Northern Franchise agreement and the required refurbishment specifications it says with respect to the 319s,

...
full exterior repaint (it being agreed that with regard to those Class 319s units
repainted into the current Northern operator’s livery in 2015 or 2016 re-painting
of those units shall be completed by 31 March 2023);
...

So whilst 2020, is the date for somethings, it looks like 1st April 2023 will be acceptable for some of the none-accessibility based refurbishments. I therefore think that the 8 units coming up now are more likely to go straight to a full refurbishment program and the units currently in service will be the last ones done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On a side note, a friend mentioned that on Saturday there was an 8 car on a route into Liverpool, too long for some of the platforms. I don't know if the back train was locked out of service.

I was trying to work out if this was a genuine scheduled service or if it was recovering a unit that had traction problems. Anybody know?

 

[northwichcat]

So whilst 2020, is the date for somethings, it looks like 1st April 2023 will be acceptable for some of the none-accessibility based refurbishments. I therefore think that the 8 units coming up now are more likely to go straight to a full refurbishment program and the units currently in service will be the last ones done.

That only seems to refer to a repaint of the 319s with old Northern repainted in the final years of the previous franchise.

 

[8J]

Reading the Northern Franchise agreement and the required refurbishment specifications it says with respect to the 319s,



So whilst 2020, is the date for somethings, it looks like 1st April 2023 will be acceptable for some of the none-accessibility based refurbishments. I therefore think that the 8 units coming up now are more likely to go straight to a full refurbishment program and the units currently in service will be the last ones done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On a side note, a friend mentioned that on Saturday there was an 8 car on a route into Liverpool, too long for some of the platforms. I don't know if the back train was locked out of service.

I was trying to work out if this was a genuine scheduled service or if it was recovering a unit that had traction problems. Anybody know?

There are scheduled 8 car diagrams Monday - Friday. The 2 I know of are the 20:03 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street and 22:09 Manchester Victoria - Liverpool Lime Street. Both are used to get units back to Liverpool and the back set is always locked out on them. With one from Manchester Victoria, the station announcer advertises it as an 8 car service.

I'm not sure if there are any booked 8 car diagrams on Saturdays.

 

[Loop & Link]

Think that 2003 Wigan-Lime St is an 8 car on a Saturday too

 

[notlob.divad]

There are scheduled 8 car diagrams Monday - Friday. The 2 I know of are the 20:03 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street and 22:09 Manchester Victoria - Liverpool Lime Street. Both are used to get units back to Liverpool and the back set is always locked out on them. With one from Manchester Victoria, the station announcer advertises it as an 8 car service.

I'm not sure if there are any booked 8 car diagrams on Saturdays.

Think that 2003 Wigan-Lime St is an 8 car on a Saturday too

Thank you that would explain it. I knew there would be a sensible reason, 2 evening peak out of Liverpool services, combined to one path for the return.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That only seems to refer to a repaint of the 319s with old Northern repainted in the final years of the previous franchise.

I agree, but because of this it would seem sensible that the units currently working the northern services keep going whilst the 8 arriving this week go straight in for the full refurbishment.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by jtd508110
There are scheduled 8 car diagrams Monday - Friday. The 2 I know of are the 20:03 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street and 22:09 Manchester Victoria - Liverpool Lime Street. Both are used to get units back to Liverpool and the back set is always locked out on them.

I'm not sure that the rear set is 'locked out', but it certainly isn't available for passenger use.
On one particular occasion when I caught the 2209 ex-Victoria (I have also caught it on other occasions) the conductor (or whoever) had only left one set of doors open (presumably the ones adjacent to where he had used the control button) and this I took to mean that the remaining door buttons could not be 'enabled' without enabling the door buttons on the rear set as well - but I'll stand corrected on this point, of course.

With one from Manchester Victoria, the station announcer advertises it as an 8 car service.

At all stations with an information display and/or public address, the 8-car formations are, as far as I am aware, always announced as 'This train has 8 carriages' - which is a bit of a distortion, given that four of those carriages are not available for use. It would be more helpful to say something like 'Please use the front four carriages only'.

I'm not sure if there are any booked 8 car diagrams on Saturdays.

Originally Posted by Loop & Link
Think that 2003 Wigan-Lime St is an 8 car on a Saturday too

It is indeed, but the 2209 Victoria to Lime Street is 8-car Mondays to Fridays only - this being because, on a Saturday, the 'extra' journeys, i.e. those additional to the basic hourly service, are still diesel-operated.
An additional 8-car working is 0520 Lime Street to Victoria, this also is Mondays to Fridays only.