Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[IanXC]

So in the broader rolling stock plans, my understanding is:

158s Diesel Northern Connect in the North East
170s Leeds - Southport and Harrogate Loop
195s Diesel Northern Connect Routes
331s Elextric Northern Connect Routes, plus routes North of Leeds, and as yet unconfirmed routes around Manchester?

Is that right or is anything else confirmed?

I particularly wonder where the rest of the enlarged 158 fleet will operate, if everything through Hull and Scarborough were 158 for instance, I think that could account for most of the fleet?

 

[northwichcat]

So in the broader rolling stock plans, my understanding is:

158s Diesel Northern Connect in the North East
170s Leeds - Southport and Harrogate Loop
195s Diesel Northern Connect Routes
331s Elextric Northern Connect Routes, plus routes North of Leeds, and as yet unconfirmed routes around Manchester?

Is that right or is anything else confirmed?

333s on to Leeds-Doncaster with all 333s being refurbished to include the driving cars having low density seating to increase standing space.

Brand new 4 car EMUs for the Glossop route has been specifically mentioned and they've hinted the 4 car 331s will replace 3 car 323s.

Also mentioned is once extra 150s arrive they'll be some 3 car hybrids created. Possibly going on to routes which currently see 150+153 formations e.g. Clitheroe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unit failures happen all the time, I'm always curious as to why it's such a big interest on here to be honest that a 319 has failed! Not having a dig, just saying!

If you recall when the original plan of 120 new diesel carriages for Northern was dropped in favour of electrification and cascaded 319s a lot of people were saying EMUs are a lot more reliable than DMUs.

The proportion of 323s and 319s used on a daily basis is almost the same. The 323s do seem to be the most reliable class of trains used by Northern in the North West, while the 319s must be the worst. By the time infrastructure problems are more likely to affect electric trains more than diesel trains, the passengers on routes where 319s are used haven't had a good time since the 319s have been introduced.

 

[notlob.divad]

Starting to head a little off the topic of the thread. But it they do anything I hope they re-open platform 3 and the Junction line. If done right you could both turnback trains there and use it as an end of line station for a service calling all stops to Manchester Victoria, giving Eccles and Patricroft their link to Victoria back.

You've lost me completely there, Divad. To coin a famous railway phrase, could you 'please explain'..

My understanding is once the TPE and Northern Timetables settle down after the completion of the Manchester Hub project. Eccles and Patricroft will no longer have direct services to Victoria, only the Chat Moss stopping services to Manchester Airport. Everywhere West of Patricroft will, via have access to both routes across the Manchester conurbation via a same platform change at Newton-Le-Willows, however to get to Victoria and thus places only served from there passengers to and from Eccles and Patricroft will have to go to Oxford Road, and then come back around the new chord. This being evidence by the debate around whether Salford Central should get platforms 3&4 re-instated when no services will stop there.

My suggestion was that (assuming there is capacity, and I appreciate there may not be) a service that serves ... Newton-Le-Willows - Patricroft - Eccles - Salford Central (A reason for the new platforms) - Manchester Victoria - A suitable east of Manchester terminating location.

The reason this came about from a debate about truning trains back at St. Helens Central was that in order to get it out of the way of the express services using the Chat moss line, a re-in statement of the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction link into an overhauled platform 3 at Central would provide a good termination point for this train as well as linking the centre of St Helens to the centre of Manchester it would also provide the ability to turn trains back towards Liverpool without using the non-electrified cross over.

They where my thoughts. I appreciate this is the wrong thread for further debate on this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unit failures happen all the time, I'm always curious as to why it's such a big interest on here to be honest that a 319 has failed! Not having a dig, just saying!

It was replaced off Allerton anyway.

Sometimes a unit with fail and doesn't even get noticed - eg: inward unit into Lime St has a fault gets to sent to Allerton, units are stepped up until a replacement comes off, and then it's back to normal not necessarily any cancellations.

I agree that there is always the potential for units to fail. That is the nature of machines. However the 319s do seem to have quite a high rate of attrition. People have asked about the 'sparks effect' Whilst there has been some increase in numbers on electrified lines, I think it has been muted somewhat. One reason for that is the reliability of the refurbished units, journeys are not faster as they are still pathed for 75mph DMUs partially because one may have to be swapped in to replace a failed unit.

The other reason for my interest is that 6 units pass the end of my road every hour. I tend to notice when one doesn't run or a DMU replaces it.

 

[childwallblues]

Crossover at St Helens Central isn't electrified believe it or not! So turnback have to utilise DMU's.

It is possible for 319's to terminate at Thatto Heath and run back to Liverpool via the crossover at Pilkington's. And there's been the very odd occasion where a 319 has terminated at St Helens and ran wrong road to Pilkington's and crossed over there.

The crossover is not electrified as it was due to be moved to a new position when the line was electrified and the line was re-signalled abolishing the box at the station. The latter did not happen so you have the current situation.

 

[notlob.divad]

The crossover is not electrified as it was due to be moved to a new position when the line was electrified and the line was re-signalled abolishing the box at the station. The latter did not happen so you have the current situation.

Interesting, do you know if/when the latter will eventually happen?

My guess is eventually they will want it all in the new Manchester control center and shut the local signal box. But guessing it is probably a fair way down the list at the minute with Weaver - Wavetree etc.

 

[Bovverboy]

Right - let's try and answer some of these! 0735 ex-Airport had 369 attached at the rear, subsequently on arrival at Lime St it was blocking it the good unit for 0916 Airport hence the cancellation.

Which begs the question as to what was wrong with 369. Clearly, it wasn't 'dead', or it wouldn't have managed to make it to Manchester Airport (albeit with two unscheduled stops after Slade Lane Junction). The 0735 ex-Airport (one of the busiest journeys of the day on the route) didn't appear to lose any time to Lime Street - again, not indicative of a four-car dead weight on the back. Yet 369 was apparently not considered healthy enough to make it to Allerton depot under its own power.
Of course, there's a possibility that there wasn't a spare driver available to do it, although that seems unlikely given the 2+ hours notice that one would be needed.
I suspect that the healthy unit returned to Lime Street in multiple with a second 319 as 5H48, arriving back in Lime Street at 1006, but RTT does say that the ensemble arrived in platform 9, whereas it also says that it was platform 1 the units subsequently departed from.

1402 Vic-Lime St cancelled because the driver for it was stuck at Huddersfield due to their unit failing on the 1057 Man Vic-Huddersfield, on return they are booked a PNB at Vic.

RTT gives the problem as being with the unit's brakes, but it managed to continue from Slaithwaite to Huddersfield ECS after a ten-minute delay. Was it brought back on the back of the 1315 Huddersfield to Wigan Wallgate? (It should itself have done the 1215 journey).
I know that rail staff often work rest days, but is there no overtime working on top of a duty? In the bus world, the middle of the day would be seen as the easiest time of day to cover extra work.
Was the cancellation of the 1320 ex-Lime Street coincidental?

 

[edwin_m]

Which begs the question as to what was wrong with 369. Clearly, it wasn't 'dead', or it wouldn't have managed to make it to Manchester Airport (albeit with two unscheduled stops after Slade Lane Junction). The 0735 ex-Airport (one of the busiest journeys of the day on the route) didn't appear to lose any time to Lime Street - again, not indicative of a four-car dead weight on the back. Yet 369 was apparently not considered healthy enough to make it to Allerton depot under its own power.
Of course, there's a possibility that there wasn't a spare driver available to do it, although that seems unlikely given the 2+ hours notice that one would be needed.

Could have been a fault with the equipment in a particular cab, which still allowed the unit to be driven from another cab? The front cab during the failures on the way to the Airport would be the rear cab as far as Lime Street, but would have had to beome the front one again for the journey to Allerton.

 

[Bovverboy]

My understanding is once the TPE and Northern Timetables settle down after the completion of the Manchester Hub project. Eccles and Patricroft will no longer have direct services to Victoria, only the Chat Moss stopping services to Manchester Airport. Everywhere West of Patricroft will, via have access to both routes across the Manchester conurbation via a same platform change at Newton-Le-Willows, however to get to Victoria and thus places only served from there passengers to and from Eccles and Patricroft will have to go to Oxford Road, and then come back around the new chord.

Yes, I did wonder if it was the future situation you were considering. IIRC, it is effectively the existing ATW service which is going to be diverted to Victoria and then head off somewhere up the north-east. I believe the plan is that it will call at Eccles at peak - I don't know about Patricroft.
Eccles and Patricroft are my two local stations, and I have to say that I don't find it in any way negative that the intention is that the existing service is going to be diverted to the Airport. I don't find it a handicap that the existing Sunday service from Eccles goes that way. I'm sure there will be many passengers for whom stops at Oxford Road/Piccadilly are advantageous, rather than detrimental, compared to a stop at Victoria.
Is the existing Lime Street to Airport semi-fast going to be cancelled without direct replacement? I know the semi-fasts aren't as well-patronised as they might be, but I don't relish the situation of their clientele being absorbed by the stoppers, assuming the latter continuing at their existing frequency.

The other reason for my interest is that 6 units pass the end of my road every hour. I tend to notice when one doesn't run or a DMU replaces it.

I take it you live either between Huyton and Earlestown or between Huyton and Wigan.

 

[notlob.divad]

Yes, I did wonder if it was the future situation you were considering. IIRC, it is effectively the existing ATW service which is going to be diverted to Victoria and then head off somewhere up the north-east. I believe the plan is that it will call at Eccles at peak - I don't know about Patricroft.

That may happen, but local MPs etc are pushing for North Wales to have a direct airport service so I wouldn't hold out for that.

Eccles and Patricroft are my two local stations, and I have to say that I don't find it in any way negative that the intention is that the existing service is going to be diverted to the Airport. I don't find it a handicap that the existing Sunday service from Eccles goes that way. I'm sure there will be many passengers for whom stops at Oxford Road/Piccadilly are advantageous, rather than detrimental, compared to a stop at Victoria.

It may not be a +ve for some, it may be a -ve for others, point being it is its a move not an addition.

Is the existing Lime Street to Airport semi-fast going to be cancelled without direct replacement? I know the semi-fasts aren't as well-patronised as they might be, but I don't relish the situation of their clientele being absorbed by the stoppers, assuming the latter continuing at their existing frequency.

Depending exactly on how you look at it, it seems the path of the semi-fast airport service will be used by the Semi-Fast TPE service and go to Victoria, whilst the current stopper to Victoria will go through Piccadilly and take the path of the airport stopper. The loss of the faster airport service from Liverpool will instead be replaced by the New Connect service taking the current Semi-fast TPE path via Warrington Central.

So as far as I can tell, Patricroft and Eccles will only have direct services to the Castlefield corridor, and Salford Central does not need the extra two platforms as nothing will stop there. Hence why I suggested (capacity allowing) the service I did.

I take it you live either between Huyton and Earlestown or between Huyton and Wigan.

You would be correct, I live alongside one or the other.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool
Last I heard, all the Man Vic stoppers were supposed to be 319s.

All the Lime Street to Manchester Victoria stoppers are indeed operated by 319s.

Sorry, I was wrong there. The statement is true in respect of M/F journeys, but not of Sats. The journeys additional to the basic hourly service are still dmu - 0738, 0838, 1738 ex-Vic, 0742, 1642, 1737 ex-Lime Street. All the WBQ also appear to be diesel on Saturdays, together with 0556 St Helens Central to Lime Street (it has to be diesel, it reverses at SHC!), 0628 Lime Street to Wigan NW and 0731 return, and 0644 Wigan NW to Lime Street via NLW. The 0556 ex St Helens Central is dmu-operated M/F too (even though it doesn't, then, reverse at SHC!)

Two journeys (NSu) operate with an out of service unit attached at the rear - 0620 Lime Street to Victoria and 2209 Victoria to Lime Street. The second unit (as a single unit) covers unbalanced service journeys in the AM/PM peak.

I offered the correction in post 4273 (page 285) that the AM journey which brings an additional set to Victoria is the 0520, not 0620. It's actually M/F only, as is the situation with the 2209.

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
There do seem to be a frightening number of failures, given that there are just fifteen 319s scheduled for service M/F, fourteen on a Saturday (I think), and just three on a normal Sunday. That's making a point of ignoring the one employed on Picc-Airport, since we don't seem to keep tabs on that one.

I believe it's only thirteen 319s which are scheduled for service on a Saturday (not counting the Picc-Airport one).

 

[Loop & Link]

There is a 319 diagram on the Bank Quay's on a Saturday now.

 

[Bovverboy]

There is a 319 diagram on the Bank Quay's on a Saturday now.

Yes, I see there's been quite a swap around. Actually, the 1750 may have been electric for a while (it's covered by the unit off the 1630 Preston to Lime Street) but, according to RTT, the remainder of the Saturday WBQs remain dmu-operated. In reality, I gather that the 0647, 0947, 1147, 1347, and 1547 are electric, in addition to the 1750.

 

[Harbornite]

I just read that Northern are planning to hire a class 180 on services from Bradford. This was mentioned in another thread on the forum.

 

[MatthewRead]

I just read that Northern are planning to hire a class 180 on services from Bradford. This was mentioned in another thread on the forum.

From which operator?

 

[Haydn1971]

From which operator?

Grand Central I believe

 

[MatthewRead]

Grand Central I believe

What services will it operate on?

 

[Haydn1971]

All in this thread....

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131490

 

[darylyates17]

Yes, I see there's been quite a swap around. Actually, the 1750 may have been electric for a while (it's covered by the unit off the 1630 Preston to Lime Street) but, according to RTT, the remainder of the Saturday WBQs remain dmu-operated. In reality, I gather that the 0647, 0947, 1147, 1347, and 1547 are electric, in addition to the 1750.

Does anyone know when all Saturday Bank Quay-Lime Street Diagrams will become 319s?

 

[Loop & Link]

Unsure, but it means more maintenance can be done of a weekend at least with less units out. Maybe next TT change?

 

[Bovverboy]

All in this thread....

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131490

Arriva Rail North (ARN) is seeking contingent access rights to operate one additional weekday service from Bradford Interchange to Leeds calling at Bramley and New Pudsey. The service will operate using a Class180 which is being leased from Grand Central. This service is being introduced until December 2017 to allow ARN to undertake a complex DMU rolling stock cascade that will cover existing services once the remaining 170s are released by Transpennine Express.
In order to free up units to implement the rolling cascade two existing services will be shortened.
1. 06.59 Huddersfield – Leeds
2. 06.46 Manchester Victoria - Leeds
The new service between Bradford Interchange and Leeds will pick up the capacity from the shortening of the services in order to allow us to carry our passengers into Leeds in the morning peak.

The above seems a long-winded way of saying the following.
1. Immediately prior to the recent franchise changes Northern hired 6x156 to TPE on Mondays to Saturdays. Because some services have been moved from the TPE franchise to the Northern it is now Northern which is hiring 185s from TPE, but, overall, allocation of types and quantities to routes has, for the moment, not changed.
2. Next month TPE are due to lose the last four 170s to Chiltern. Only three are scheduled for daily service, total seating capacity 348. This approximately equates to two 185s, total seating capacity 338.
3. Northern are proposing to withdraw (probably) 1x142 and 1x150 (total seating capacity c.240) from Bradford to Leeds services in the AM peak (M/F only?) and replace them with 1x180, total seating capacity 270. However the 180 won't be as suitable for a local service as the 142/150, so total capacity will probably be reduced.
4. Northern are proposing to withdraw c.240 seats from Halifax to Bradford services in the AM peak.
5. As the loss of the 2x185s represents a loss of 338 seats, but the saving of the 142 & 150 saves only c.240 seats, a further saving of c.100 AM peak seats will need to be found somewhere else, as will a saving of 338 seats in the PM peak.

All in all pretty bad news, I would say.

It has been said elsewhere that Northern probably intended to mean the 0636 Manchester Victoria to Leeds, rather than 0646.

 

[Greybeard33]

The above seems a long-winded way of saying the following.
1. Immediately prior to the recent franchise changes Northern hired 6x156 to TPE on Mondays to Saturdays. Because some services have been moved from the TPE franchise to the Northern it is now Northern which is hiring 185s from TPE, but, overall, allocation of types and quantities to routes has, for the moment, not changed.
2. Next month TPE are due to lose the last four 170s to Chiltern. Only three are scheduled for daily service, total seating capacity 348. This approximately equates to two 185s, total seating capacity 338.
3. Northern are proposing to withdraw (probably) 1x142 and 1x150 (total seating capacity c.240) from Bradford to Leeds services in the AM peak (M/F only?) and replace them with 1x180, total seating capacity 270. However the 180 won't be as suitable for a local service as the 142/150, so total capacity will probably be reduced.
4. Northern are proposing to withdraw c.240 seats from Halifax to Bradford services in the AM peak.
5. As the loss of the 2x185s represents a loss of 338 seats, but the saving of the 142 & 150 saves only c.240 seats, a further saving of c.100 AM peak seats will need to be found somewhere else, as will a saving of 338 seats in the PM peak.

All in all pretty bad news, I would say.

It has been said elsewhere that Northern probably intended to mean the 0636 Manchester Victoria to Leeds, rather than 0646.

As a matter of fact, from the April franchise change to the May timetable change Northern was, Mon-Fri, hiring 6/7x185 from TPE (due to interworking with TPE services, there was/is one more early morning and late evening than for the rest of the day). From the May timetable change, this dropped to 5/6x185, with more 156s being used instead on Blackpool to Manchester Airport services. From 11 July, it will drop again to 4/5x185, with a Sprinter instead of a 185 operating the Windermere to Oxenholme shuttle for the middle part of the day. See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128479 for details.

Measures Northern has already taken as a result include a reduction in direct services between Windermere and Manchester Airport and substitution of a 319 for a 323 on the Piccadilly to Airport shuttle. The 323 now operates a morning peak Macclesfield to Piccadilly service and an evening peak Piccadilly to Hazel Grove service, both of which were previously operated by 2x142. The Hazel Grove service used to continue to Chinley - see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128656.

 

[Bovverboy]

As a matter of fact, from the April franchise change to the May timetable change Northern was, Mon-Fri, hiring 6/7x185 from TPE (due to interworking with TPE services, there was/is one more early morning and late evening than for the rest of the day). From the May timetable change, this dropped to 5/6x185, with more 156s being used instead on Blackpool to Manchester Airport services.

Out of interest, are you able to say which journeys are the ones which are now 156-operated, and used to be 185-operated? Are we talking double 156s, or singles?

 

[Greybeard33]

Out of interest, are you able to say which journeys are the ones which are now 156-operated, and used to be 185-operated? Are we talking double 156s, or singles?

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2511054#post2511054 for the "before and after" 156 diagrams. It was not a simple swap, but, for example, the 0757 and 1129 from Manchester Airport to Blackpool were 185-operated until May, as was the 1714 from Oxford Road to Barrow. The remaining 185s are more intensively diagrammed - one used to sit at Blackpool for a couple of hours in the afternoon until May.

In that post I assumed that all the Airport - Blackpool workings would remain 2x156, but I have not "eyeballed" them since May to check. Now they are internal Northern diagrams, rather than subject to a contract with TPE, I suppose Northern does have the option of using other formations of 75mph DMUs.

 

[Bovverboy]

According to the latest issue of 'Rail', Northern are due another 12 319s 'this year' - 2 319/0s, 2 319/2s, and 8 319/4s.
As no new extensions to the electrified network are expected before December 2017, are the 319s intended as 323 replacements?

 

[Mordac]

According to the latest issue of 'Rail', Northern are due another 12 319s 'this year' - 2 319/0s, 2 319/2s, and 8 319/4s.
As no new extensions to the electrified network are expected before December 2017, are the 319s intended as 323 replacements?

Probably intended to both allow the existing units to be refurbished, and cover for their terrible reliability. Hopefully the added slack in units will allow them to actually time the services for EMUs and speed them up a bit. Up to now, many of them have still been using Sprinter timings.

 

[childwallblues]

Probably intended to both allow the existing units to be refurbished, and cover for their terrible reliability. Hopefully the added slack in units will allow them to actually time the services for EMUs and speed them up a bit. Up to now, many of them have still been using Sprinter timings.

I think that you will find that all 319 services are on 142/150/156 timings. An eight hour observation at Wigan North Western yesterday all stopping services were regularly arriving 5-6 minutes early except for the 0530 from Liverpool.
319371 had left Lime Street 6 minutes late due to problems getting the pantograph up. It had been down due to an overnight engineers possession.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think that you will find that all 319 services are on 142/150/156 timings. An eight hour observation at Wigan North Western yesterday all stopping services were regularly arriving 5-6 minutes early except for the 0530 from Liverpool.
319371 had left Lime Street 6 minutes late due to problems getting the pantograph up. It had been down due to an overnight engineers possession.

The 319 on the Piccadilly to Airport shuttle actually operates to 323 timings. It generally seems to keep to them.

 

[northwichcat]

The 319 on the Piccadilly to Airport shuttle actually operates to 323 timings. It generally seems to keep to them.

Well yesterday the 319 didn't arrive on time at Heald Green once on the Airport bound services. The delays (to the nearest minute) were 4, 3, 5, 7, 6, 6, 10, 5, 5, 4, 6, 5, 11, 4. Obviously it's not just the performance of the 319 that will lead to delays but to not have even one departure within 2 minutes of the timetabled time is very poor. If you take the terminus times then I imagine they show most services only 2 services at least 5 minutes late and some on time due to the generous recovery time that Northern add in.

 

[WatcherZero]

Being suggested that because of their weight the 185 may find their way back to Northern as other Tocs dont want them and hence we may see some Sprinters beyond the 153 being replaced before 2020.

 

[northwichcat]

Being suggested that because of their weight the 185 may find their way back to Northern as other Tocs dont want them and hence we may see some Sprinters beyond the 153 being replaced before 2020.

While some people say the high operating costs of 185s mean they aren't a good option for Northern, a large number of 156s and 158s on stopping services also aren't ideal, while I'm sure other operators like ATW and EMT would jump at the chance to get additional 158s, while ATW might like more 150s to replace their Pacers.