And what would Heathrow Express actually need them for anyway? Only thing in future that might require extra Class 33x trains would be Western Rail Access some time in the 2020s.
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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification
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And what would Heathrow Express actually need them for anyway? Only thing in future that might require extra Class 33x trains would be Western Rail Access some time in the 2020s.
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So do I, with a slight timetable tweak to allow for slower acceleration.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The numbers of new carriages proposed and the number of 333s in the fleet don't add up for new CAF trains replacing the 333s, unless there's a post-2020 option for additional CAF carriages that hasn't been made public.
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The various releases do seem to indicate Northern Connect standard services will be introduced during 2018 and 2019.
One thing which I think has been overlooked is Porterbrook have said the 323s can remain with Northern until 2018/2019: http://www.railmagazine.com/news/2015/08/25/likely-removal-of-north-west-323s-angers-user-group
Yet there has been a mention of refurbished 4 car EMUs replacing 323s on Hadfield service during 2017, which the route getting new CAF EMUs at a later date. Could that result in maybe 1 x 6 car 323 diagram on Preston/Blackpool services until the new EMUs arrive? I think Glossop uses 3 x 323s and possibly Macclesfield will need the other released EMU.
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That could be a possibility, but training drivers on 323's just for one service for a year or so doesn't seem very cost effective in the modern railway...
More might emerge after tomorrow as there is a conference for Northern management to be briefed on future plans.
DJH1971
Established Member
The 319 Northern Fail's are still happening alas.
Today's 16:16 LIV-MIA service is a 156.
They still don't seem to getting to grips with the 319 failures.
And yet there is talk of more 319's coming up North.
Today's 16:16 LIV-MIA service is a 156.
They still don't seem to getting to grips with the 319 failures.
And yet there is talk of more 319's coming up North.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
2 x 319s out-of-service due to an elctrocuation incident which is under investigation: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=127603
Loop & Link
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There is also one long term out of service 319 too.
DJH1971
Established Member
The same happened today, whilst the 07:38 MCV to LIV service was cancelled.
TheKnightWho
Established Member
Worrying... Perhaps we might see the CAF order increase in size then?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
This needs an immediate solution not one in a few years time.
D365
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In before somebody throws a suggestion for Class 86+442 haulage.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Perhaps the recent experiences, including what happened to the driver when door-testing at the depot, should be lessons learnt by those charged with the refurbishment of any future Class 319 units, prior to these being sent up north.
Loop & Link
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Nothing to do with 319 failures.
Delayed due to a TPE and then run fast Earlestown-Lime St as per contingency.
LNW-GW Joint
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Lime St to Wigan (2), Preston, Warrington BQ, Manchester Airport, Manchester Victoria (nearly all of them) and Liverpool South Parkway (1tph).
That gives 7tph all told out of Lime St, 4 of which are stoppers, 3 semi-fast (Preston, Airport, S Parkway).
There's just the odd peak DMU working to position trains beyond the wires.
319s also work one of the Manchester Piccadilly-Airport stoppers.
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hairyhandedfool
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Last I heard, all the Man Vic stoppers were supposed to be 319s.
The 39 minutes past the hour from Lime Street to Parkway will give you some awkward to get bits of track.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
All in disarray today, particularly on the Liverpool-Manchester Airport trains, after a train failure earlier around Astley.
The culprit train appears to be 0640 Airport-Lime St which vanished from RTT after Astley.
Many 319 services over Chat Moss seem to have been cancelled since, although ATW and TPE seem to be working fairly normally.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y90059/2016/04/26/advanced
The culprit train appears to be 0640 Airport-Lime St which vanished from RTT after Astley.
Many 319 services over Chat Moss seem to have been cancelled since, although ATW and TPE seem to be working fairly normally.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y90059/2016/04/26/advanced
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Reported elsewhere Northern have 3 x failed 319s today and could only source 2 x DMUs to fill in meaning every 3rd Airport-Liverpool service isn't going to run.
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All the Lime Street to Manchester Victoria stoppers are indeed operated by 319s. Two 319s stable at Victoria Reversing Siding overnight and all day Sunday.
Two journeys (NSu) operate with an out of service unit attached at the rear - 0620 Lime Street to Victoria and 2209 Victoria to Lime Street. The second unit (as a single unit) covers unbalanced service journeys in the AM/PM peak. I imagine that this would not happen if there were space to stable a third unit at Victoria Reversing Siding.
In respect of the Lime Street to Manchester Airport service, I believe only the following journeys are still scheduled for DMUs.
0338 NSu Lime Street to Airport and 0434 NSu return.
I'm told the above journeys remain diesel because of the regularity of their being diverted via the CLC route.
0844 Su Airport to Lime Street, 2215 Su & 2315 Su Lime Street to Airport.
These journeys still interwork with Lime Street to Warrington Central and/or Manchester Oxford Road journeys - with a rehash of duties they could go electric (using the 319s spare at Victoria).
There is actually a third 319 spare in the Manchester area on Sundays, this being the one which stables at Stockport Carriage Maintenance Depot and which, like the two at Victoria, is not scheduled for work on Sundays. On other days it operates the Piccadilly to Airport stopper.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
As far as I can see Northern only need 16x319s to work the current services.
Tightening up the timetable would probably save one or two of these, but that seems unlikely to happen before Dec 2017 (with Stalybridge-Blackpool then live or soon after).
So the current fleet of 20 is generous.
They do very little on Sundays, with no Victoria/WBQ/Wigan stoppers and the Preston running to Blackpool as a DMU.
Tightening up the timetable would probably save one or two of these, but that seems unlikely to happen before Dec 2017 (with Stalybridge-Blackpool then live or soon after).
So the current fleet of 20 is generous.
They do very little on Sundays, with no Victoria/WBQ/Wigan stoppers and the Preston running to Blackpool as a DMU.
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Loop & Link
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Don't forget there is one long term demic 319 not fit for service and 376 has only just come back.
Which is the demic out of interest?
DJH1971
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Problems again this morning due to a broken down 319 between Manchester to Earlestown.
Many trains delayed or cancelled.
Ended up getting a train to Liverpool from St Helens Central.
These train failures are becoming far too common.
Many trains delayed or cancelled.
Ended up getting a train to Liverpool from St Helens Central.
These train failures are becoming far too common.
The 0816 Lime Street to Airport and 0940 return were also cancelled due to a 'problem with the train'. Other eastbound services ran normally so it's difficult to see that these cancellations were in any way connected to the earlier problem somewhere between Eccles and Astley.
The 1021 Lime Street to Victoria was terminated at Broad Green (1030) due to a problem with the train. It eventually continued at 1055 ECS to Victoria.
The 1116 Lime Street to Airport apparently had problems with the doors, losing 38 minutes between Wavertree Technology Park and St Helens Junction. It was terminated at Piccadilly 37 late, and returned as the 1255 Piccadilly to Lime Street, missing Piccadilly to Airport and return.
Other journeys were cancelled as a result of earlier delays, such as the 0916 Lime Street to Airport and 1040 return. The 0616 TPE York to Lime Street was terminated at Victoria.
So at least four significant incidents (presumably involving 319s) in the space of a morning.
If, as reported by jcollins, Northern were three 319s short for service on 26 April, that implies six units being unavailable - out of a fleet of twenty.
EMUs should be more reliable than that.
The 1021 Lime Street to Victoria was terminated at Broad Green (1030) due to a problem with the train. It eventually continued at 1055 ECS to Victoria.
The 1116 Lime Street to Airport apparently had problems with the doors, losing 38 minutes between Wavertree Technology Park and St Helens Junction. It was terminated at Piccadilly 37 late, and returned as the 1255 Piccadilly to Lime Street, missing Piccadilly to Airport and return.
Other journeys were cancelled as a result of earlier delays, such as the 0916 Lime Street to Airport and 1040 return. The 0616 TPE York to Lime Street was terminated at Victoria.
So at least four significant incidents (presumably involving 319s) in the space of a morning.
If, as reported by jcollins, Northern were three 319s short for service on 26 April, that implies six units being unavailable - out of a fleet of twenty.
EMUs should be more reliable than that.
They are when the maintenance understands them. I can't remember Thameslink having anywhere near 25 of their 86 319s out of use resulting from random pattern failures. That includes right up to 2014 when they were all in far more intensive use than their NW duties demand.
I've decided that the 'problem' which befell the 0816 ex-Lime Street was that it was required to cover the 0820 Lime Street to Victoria instead, the unit which should have operated that journey being, at the time, stuck the wrong side of Newton-le-Willows.
So that makes it only three significant incidents.
DJH1971
Established Member
Speaking to a bloke in the ticket office at St Helens Junction this morning wrt the delays and cancellations of late he said that the 319's were designed for long distance journeys and not local stopping services, where the stop/start use is proving a problem for the brakes.
Thoughts anyone?
Thoughts anyone?
Emblematic
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Hilarious! He clearly has no idea where these trains operated, south of Blackfriars they are predominantly on stopping services, on some routes with stops every 2-3 minutes. Just check the timetable (pdf)
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