Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[8J]

No they don't. Sprinters and Pacers have a BSI coupling whereas 319's are tightlock...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No they don't. Sprinters and Pacers have a BSI coupling whereas 319's are tightlock...

Speaking of coupling compatibility, AIUI 323s were specified to be capable of multiple working with 317-322, but has this ever been done? Either in Manchester or Birmingham?

 

[Domh245]

Here's an idea: are 319s coupling compatible with 150s or Pacers? They both have tightlock coupling heads, the couplers are all in the same spot...

No they aren't. The 319s have tightlock, the DMUs have got BSI couplers, and even if mechanically they were the same, the electrical connections almost certainly wouldn't be!

 

[fowler9]

There seemed to be a large number of 319's on Allerton when I passed through at 17:00 this evening. I was a little surprised at that, appeared to be 4 there. My Preston service which I caught to Lime Street was a 319 though.

I almost forgot, on Monday the same Parkway to Preston service was kicking everyone off at Lime Street to change unit, I didn't see what went forward to Preston.

 

[familyguy99]

Not too sure where to put this but I notice the is Class 319 park up on platform 6 at Manchester Victoria today which seen unusual but with engineering work taking place at Victoria station I guess this train couldn't gone back to Allerton depot or even to Victoria sliding if work is taking place around there.

 

[175001]

Not too sure where to put this but I notice the is Class 319 park up on platform 6 at Manchester Victoria today which seen unusual but with engineering work taking place at Victoria station I guess this train couldn't gone back to Allerton depot or even to Victoria sliding if work is taking place around there.

Full possession both ends at Victoria today, no access to Turnback sidings either due to the possession. And Network Rail have a fascination of keeping Plat 3 at Victoria clear

 

[childwallblues]

Not too sure where to put this but I notice the is Class 319 park up on platform 6 at Manchester Victoria today which seen unusual but with engineering work taking place at Victoria station I guess this train couldn't gone back to Allerton depot or even to Victoria sliding if work is taking place around there.

And I took the 0912 LIV-NCL to MCV today and it unusually arrived at Platform 5.

 

[DJH1971]

There still appears to be a spate of 319 failures at Northern.

Yesterday the 08:25 service from St Helens Junction to Liverpool was a 156 and this morning, the 07:38 MCV to LIV was also a 156.

So much for Northern going electric then.

 

[northwichcat]

Well I've never been on a 150 that has failed while I've been on the train in 31 years and I've only been on 2 x 142s which have failed while I've been on the train in just under that time, despite regularly travelling on both types of units.

I knew after posting that I'll be on a 150 that breaks down and last night I was on a 150+142 combination which failed after stopping at a red signal.

 

[50032]

One of the magazines this month is quoting an extra 12 319s for Northern - first time I've seen indication of a number for the extra units.

Where will these be used.

It looks like only Preston will be wired by December 2017 and as things stand the only service that could go over to electric traction is the Hazel Grove - Preston if it doesn't continue to Blackpool.

As well as Preston to Hazel Grove electric services from December 2017, I have read that the Piccadilly to Crewe via MIA services will become Liverpool - Chat Moss - MIA - Crewe services, serving all stops along the Styal line in the timetable re-cast. So perhaps the Piccadilly - Crewe via Stockport services will run out and back via that same route, and the via MIA services will convert to 319 traction. I can't see 323's running over Chat Moss for the short time they remain in the north, due to lack of train crew competency.

 

[Whistler40145]

Yeah, if 323s are off elsewhere, why put them on the Chat Moss route, 319s will be sufficient for the time being.

Also, no point putting 319s on the Piccadilly to Stoke services.

 

[Iskra]

Rumours are that Northern 333's are going to Heathrow Express...

 

[AM9]

Rumours are that Northern 333's are going to Heathrow Express...

So they are going to be fitted with GWML AWS etc. just because they were made by Siemens/CAF and look the same from the front?

 

[Whistler40145]

That sounds like an expensive project.

 

[Iskra]

So they are going to be fitted with GWML AWS etc. just because they were made by Siemens/CAF and look the same from the front?

That's what a Northern Guard who was working one told me yesterday morning. There is absolutely no need to be so patronising.

 

[Whistler40145]

Do you mean me, because that isn't in my nature.

 

[Iskra]

Do you mean me, because that isn't in my nature.

No, the poster I quoted.

 

[Whistler40145]

Okay, no worries.

 

[PHILIPE]

Rumours are that Northern 333's are going to Heathrow Express...

What's going to replace them on Northern ?

 

[Iskra]

What's going to replace them on Northern ?

Arriva's new stock or maybe 319's, I'm guessing. There has already been discussion of six-car formations on the Aire Valley, the only way that could realistically happen would be 2x3 car EMU's.

I'm not advocating 333's to Heathrow Express, just reporting what I was told yesterday. It would of course be a great shame for Northern's newest rolling stock to be sent South.

 

[Greybeard33]

As well as Preston to Hazel Grove electric services from December 2017, I have read that the Piccadilly to Crewe via MIA services will become Liverpool - Chat Moss - MIA - Crewe services, serving all stops along the Styal line in the timetable re-cast. So perhaps the Piccadilly - Crewe via Stockport services will run out and back via that same route, and the via MIA services will convert to 319 traction. I can't see 323's running over Chat Moss for the short time they remain in the north, due to lack of train crew competency.

But according to the Northern franchise agreement, Northern will only operate 4tph between Piccadilly and the Airport between Dec 2017 and Dec 2019. These have to include the Blackpool North Northern Connect service remapped from TPE; a new Liverpool semi-fast Northern Connect DMU service on the CLC line, which replaces the current 319-operated semi-fast on the Chat Moss; a new Northern Connect semi-fast DMU service to Barrow/Windermere via the Chat Moss; and a Liverpool stopper on the Chat Moss, which replaces the current 319-operated Liverpool-Victoria service. The Piccadilly-Airport shuttle, currently 319-operated, will therefore be scrapped and one of the Connect services (most likely the EMU-operated Blackpool?) will have to call at all stations between Piccadilly and the Airport instead.

So if the Liverpool-Airport Chat Moss stopper is extended to Crewe, it will effectively be formed by joining the current Liverpool-Manchester 319 stopper to the current 323 Manchester-Crewe via Airport service. But 319s will no longer be required for the two services they currently operate to the Airport.

Northern does not start to get its new trains until 2018, so I guess 319s might temporarily be used on the Airport-Blackpool North service, once the wires to Blackpool are up.

 

[50032]

But according to the Northern franchise agreement, Northern will only operate 4tph between Piccadilly and the Airport between Dec 2017 and Dec 2019. These have to include the Blackpool North Northern Connect service remapped from TPE; a new Liverpool semi-fast Northern Connect DMU service on the CLC line, which replaces the current 319-operated semi-fast on the Chat Moss; a new Northern Connect semi-fast DMU service to Barrow/Windermere via the Chat Moss; and a Liverpool stopper on the Chat Moss, which replaces the current 319-operated Liverpool-Victoria service. The Piccadilly-Airport shuttle, currently 319-operated, will therefore be scrapped and one of the Connect services (most likely the EMU-operated Blackpool?) will have to call at all stations between Piccadilly and the Airport instead.

So if the Liverpool-Airport Chat Moss stopper is extended to Crewe, it will effectively be formed by joining the current Liverpool-Manchester 319 stopper to the current 323 Manchester-Crewe via Airport service. But 319s will no longer be required for the two services they currently operate to the Airport.

I understand there'll only be 4tph from December 2017, and that the Southport and Picc-Airport stopper will go. But I'm curious as to what'll happen to the Picc to Crewe via MIA. It could combine with the Liverpool - MIA service, as suggested earlier, but that would mean 319s working to Crewe. Or could the Crewe still run Styal line but omit MIA? However I'd assume there is a requirement to run something between MIA and Wilmslow (& onward stations).

 

[Philip]

There's an issue about running 319s to Crewe because of the slower acceleration of the units, compared to 323s, meaning the service may have to be re-timed and slowed down.

The other possibility could be running the Blackpool-Airport service onwards to Crewe, using 185s, which would keep to timings well because of their fast acceleration and top speed. I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, as it seems DMUs will be required to run this service beyond 2017, because of the delay in Preston-Blackpool wiring.

 

[Whistler40145]

Yeah, hence the reason 319s aren't working Piccadilly to Stoke services.

 

[Greybeard33]

I understand there'll only be 4tph from December 2017, and that the Southport and Picc-Airport stopper will go. But I'm curious as to what'll happen to the Picc to Crewe via MIA. It could combine with the Liverpool - MIA service, as suggested earlier, but that would mean 319s working to Crewe. Or could the Crewe still run Styal line but omit MIA? However I'd assume there is a requirement to run something between MIA and Wilmslow (& onward stations).

The TSR includes requirements for weekday southbound services that:

Fourteen services departing from Manchester to Manchester Airport shall also call at
Wilmslow and Crewe [out of 51 total to Wimslow, of which 33 have to call at Handforth and 33 continue to Crewe].
Four further services departing from Manchester to Manchester Airport shall also call at
Wilmslow. Reasonable endeavours shall be made to provide Connections with services to
Crewe, at Wilmslow.

and for northbound:

Twelve services departing from Crewe to Manchester [out of 32 total] shall also call at Manchester Airport.
One service shall be provided departing from Crewe to Manchester Airport arriving no later
than 05:15.
Eighteen services departing from Wilmslow to Manchester [out of 49 total, of which 31 have to call at Handforth] shall also call at Manchester Airport.

So this rules out any Styal line services that bypass the Airport. A few early morning/late evening Styal line services can turn back at Wilmslow or Alderley Edge instead of continuing to Crewe.

It is not specified which of the 4tph from Picc to the Airport should continue to Wilmslow/Crewe, but I doubt it would be either of the DMU services. This leaves the Liverpool stopper or the Blackpool Northern Connect - I guess the decision might be dictated by the need to make the timetables match up either side of Manchester.

I should think that a 319 ought to be able to pretty much match the 323 time between Wilmslow and Crewe, considering it could use its 100mph top speed running fast between Alderley Edge and Holmes Chapel?

 

[Philip]

Running direct semi-fasts services between Crewe and places along the Bolton corridor seems to make more sense for connection opportunities, compared to running the Liverpool stopped from Crewe.

As for the second Picc-Airport stopper, I wouldn't rule out the Barrow service just yet; in North Western and even early FTPE days the Cumbria services used to call all stops between Piccadilly and the Airport during the day.

I'm thinking...Crewe to Blackpool calling Sandbach, Wilmslow, Airport, Heald Green, Piccadilly etc... With the all stops services being the Liverpool via Chat Moss stopper and the Barrow/Windermere services.

 

[AM9]

That's what a Northern Guard who was working one told me yesterday morning. There is absolutely no need to be so patronising.

Wasn't patronising at all. As you posted earlier, Rumours, - unless someone can think of a logical reason why 333s in particular might be deployed down south.

 

[Greybeard33]

Running direct semi-fasts services between Crewe and places along the Bolton corridor seems to make more sense for connection opportunities, compared to running the Liverpool stopped from Crewe.

As for the second Picc-Airport stopper, I wouldn't rule out the Barrow service just yet; in North Western and even early FTPE days the Cumbria services used to call all stops between Piccadilly and the Airport during the day.

I'm thinking...Crewe to Blackpool calling Sandbach, Wilmslow, Airport, Heald Green, Piccadilly etc... With the all stops services being the Liverpool via Chat Moss stopper and the Barrow/Windermere services.

The Crewe to Airport service is required to call at Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge as well as Sandbach and Wilmslow.

With 4tph TPE services and at least 1tph freight on the Airport line in addition to the 4tph Northern services, I think the second stopper might struggle to keep out the way if it is a DMU.

 

[D365]

Contractual agreement between Yorkshire PTEs and the Northern franchise holder means the Class 333s must remain until 2020. Don't forget that Arriva is planning to replace their Class 321/322 fleet by cascading the 333s. Somehow I doubt that HAL would be willing to pay them off.

 

[Philip]

The Crewe to Airport service is required to call at Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge as well as Sandbach and Wilmslow.

With 4tph TPE services and at least 1tph freight on the Airport line in addition to the 4tph Northern services, I think the second stopper might struggle to keep out the way if it is a DMU.

Like I say though can we be sure anything other than the Liverpool stopper will be EMU operated by Dec 2017? The only new section of electrified track by that point looks like being Manchester-Preston, with the Blackpool completion date being unclear atm. Of all DMUs, 185s are the best for acceleration.