Northern Rail Staff To Strike ?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For some people a 24hr rail strike on a working day would mean they have to take the day off work and then can't do much not at work because they live in a village and the rail service is the only local public transport

But in how many settlements in the Northern Rail franchise do they not have alternative local bus services ? Were you thinking in terms of a Knutsford to Manchester commuting route as an example of this point that you were making in your quote above ?

 

[northwichcat]

But in how many settlements in the Northern Rail franchise do they not have alternative local bus services ? Were you thinking in terms of a Knutsford to Manchester commuting route as an example of this point that you were making in your quote above ?

Well the villages of Plumley and Ashley have Northern Rail as their only public transport. Mobberley on paper has a bus route and train service but the station is almost 2 miles from the bus route. However, I imagine it would be some of the Peak District settlements that would be worst affected.

Even where there is an alternative bus service it's not necessarily a useful alternative. For example, if you live in Northwich and work 9 to 5.30 in Knutsford by rail you have a commute of just over 10 minutes and can arrive in Knutsford at 08:49 and depart at 17:48. If you use the alternative 289 bus route the journey time is just over half an hour and you'd need to arrive at 07:31 (the following arrival is 10:11) and would need to get the 19:46 departure back, unless your employer agrees to you starting work early and finishing early or starting late and finishing late.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even where there is an alternative bus service it's not necessarily a useful alternative. For example, if you live in Northwich and work 9 to 5.30 in Knutsford by rail you have a commute of just over 10 minutes and can arrive in Knutsford at 08:49 and depart at 17:48. If you use the alternative 289 bus route the journey time is just over half an hour and you'd need to arrive at 07:31 (the following arrival is 10:11) and would need to get the 19:46 departure back, unless your employer agrees to you starting work early and finishing early or starting late and finishing late.

As you know, my local unmanned station is Prestbury, but we live a fair distance away from the railway station. However, what this debate completely overlooks is the private car as an emergency mode of travel in days when no rail service is available, as car ownership is not a problem in many of the more rural areas and indeed, is seen as an essential method of transport where people these days can accept long road commutes from areas that would be a difficult proposition by a rail-based alternative. I offer up the travel to work route of my two nearest neighbours who are both senior managerial staff and daily commute by car from the Prestbury/Mottram St Andrew rural border to the outlying Lingley Mere commercial district of Warrington.

 

[island]

For some people a 24hr rail strike on a working day would mean they have to take the day off work and then can't do much not at work because they live in a village and the rail service is the only local public transport

I would have expected that most people in such places drive.

 

[Greenback]

I would have expected that most people in such places drive.

Not only that, but on odd occasions even people who don't drive may be able to get lifts with friends or relatives. Employers will also consider whether the employee can work from home, and it may be possible to take flexi leave.

Strikes are an inconvenience to people who work, there is no doubt about that, but it's seldom the case that there aren't practical alternatives.

 

[notadriver]

I'm guessing here but I think most car users will use trains as an alternative but not buses.

 

[Andrewlong]

It's a strike its meant to cause pain to their employer and travelling public. I feel sorry for those on low wages you lose out for something totally outside of their control. But Crow(e) has his agenda and cares little for the real world and the the affected.

 

[Deerfold]

But in how many settlements in the Northern Rail franchise do they not have alternative local bus services ? Were you thinking in terms of a Knutsford to Manchester commuting route as an example of this point that you were making in your quote above ?

Keighley to Leeds is under half an hour by train but 90 minutes by bus at peak time. Over an hour's drive too - especially with a lot of extra people on the road. And there's still quite a few people round here who, like me, don't drive.

The 4 carriage trains carry a lot more than the double-decker buses too.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It's a strike its meant to cause pain to their employer and travelling public. I feel sorry for those on low wages you lose out for something totally outside of their control. But Crow(e) has his agenda and cares little for the real world and the the affected.

He cares for his members, that's what we pay him for. I am sorry that peoples lives will be affected by this dispute but this is a 2 way street but due to Northern Rail and their attitude over the last few years its only been one way traffic regarding negotiations. We have all just got emails from our HR director saying Northern will not back down and they are in the right. We will see over time. But no one will win in the short term. Its the long term that counts and hopefully Northern Head office will get around the table. But if you want go ahead and blame the union and the staff I have no problem with that as we have faced that for years.

 

[455driver]

Maybe the best solution for all sides is the union to propose an overtime ban. That would then mean the operator has to temporarily withdraw some of the quieter services because there are insufficient crews and they then have to look towards employing more Northern staff.

Not quite, if the staff are working to rule/ not working overtime then they will work their rostered duty (whether its a quiet train or a busy one), the ones that wont run are the ones that are not covered on the base roster and staff wont come off their booked jobs to help out, hence the work to rule part of the dispute.

 

[kieron]

It would effectively mean that for some things like reading notices the drivers wouldnt be paid.

Just wondering, is reading notices something that you have to do each day before you can touch a train?

While there has to be some communication from management, I'd expect there to only be a few emergency instructions which need to be communicated immediately, and anyone coming on shift would have to check them before starting out. Anything planned in advance should also be communicated in advance, and you could read these whenever you have a spare minute.

Giving everyone a 10 minute break at the start of the shift to read them, paid or not, sounds like a bit of a waste of time to me.

 

[A-driver]

Just wondering, is reading notices something that you have to do each day before you can touch a train?

While there has to be some communication from management, I'd expect there to only be a few emergency instructions which need to be communicated immediately, and anyone coming on shift would have to check them before starting out. Anything planned in advance should also be communicated in advance, and you could read these whenever you have a spare minute.

Giving everyone a 10 minute break at the start of the shift to read them, paid or not, sounds like a bit of a waste of time to me.

Reading notices certainly is something you need to do every day before signing on and touching a train.

Normally it's 6 minutes and that is to book on-pick up diagram, read it through ensuring you sign all routes and traction on it, check notice cases for safety info-speed restrictions etc (you need to know about the 20mph restriction which was implemented 3hours before you signed on etc), check what time you are booking on next day, other admin as well (signing assessments, filling in reports left in your pigeon hole, reading through the weekly notice etc.

It's certainly not a break, if they didn't pay you for it and you failed to read a notice resulting in an incident it would be harder for them to hang you out for it. There is no excuse for missing something if it is part of your paid working day.

Plus people in offices are generally paid time to open the post, check emails, answer the phone etc, this isn't much different.

 

[northwichcat]

I saw one of the Northern agency workers on a train today. He came along and collected rubbish and didn't interfere with the guard's job - now for the passengers putting up with filthy trains that's a welcome addition.

Also some disjointed Northern organisation this evening. Driver takes unit for the 16:58 Stockport-Chester service from Newton Heath to Stockport. Driver stops the train on platform 2 showing 'Chester' on the destination display. No guard appears though. Platform announcer announces the train is cancelled - do not board the train on platform 2. At 16:58 the train runs ECS in the direction of Chester.

I also note Northern haven't learnt the lesson of previous years where they've had crush loadings from Knutsford as a result of the May Day festivities - the 17:49 for Manchester today was operated by a 2 car 142 (not the booked Sprinter) and had around 50 standing and struggled to accelerate out of Knutsford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would have expected that most people in such places drive.

In East Cheshire such villages usually have proportionally very few 17-65 year olds so there's people who want to drive but aren't old enough yet and others who have given it up for age/health reasons (or restrict driving to short distances for age/health reasons.)

 

[Thomas6187]

I saw one of the Northern agency workers on a train today. He came along and collected rubbish and didn't interfere with the guard's job - now for the passengers putting up with filthy trains that's a welcome addition.

If you mean a cleaner, or Train Presentation Operative, these staff are now all Northern staff

 

[northwichcat]

If you mean a cleaner, or Train Presentation Operative, these staff are now all Northern staff

Oh right. He didn't have a lilac coloured shirt on so I assumed he wasn't Northern staff.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Oh right. He didn't have a lilac coloured shirt on so I assumed he wasn't Northern staff.

Cleaners have been "in house" for quite a while now.

 

[Silv1983]

Also some disjointed Northern organisation this evening. Driver takes unit for the 16:58 Stockport-Chester service from Newton Heath to Stockport. Driver stops the train on platform 2 showing 'Chester' on the destination display. No guard appears though. Platform announcer announces the train is cancelled - do not board the train on platform 2. At 16:58 the train runs ECS in the direction of Chester.

I was that driver...

No one rang me or my instructor when we were sat in the saloon with our phones on for 45 minutes at Heaton Norris Junction, nor did the dispatcher wave us down to explain. First I learned was from a young customer on the platform at Stockport. My instructor got out and asked the dispatcher, who "thought" we'd been told. Doesn't look good i'll agree... :roll:

 

[Greybeard33]

Also some disjointed Northern organisation this evening. Driver takes unit for the 16:58 Stockport-Chester service from Newton Heath to Stockport. Driver stops the train on platform 2 showing 'Chester' on the destination display. No guard appears though. Platform announcer announces the train is cancelled - do not board the train on platform 2. At 16:58 the train runs ECS in the direction of Chester.

As a frequent traveller on this service I have seen this happen on a number of occasions (once it made a reversing move in order to return to the depot instead of continuing ECS to Chester - this caused considerable delay to following services). The guard normally arrives separately at Stockport at 16:51, on the 16:38 Piccadilly to Alderley Edge service. Sometimes the driver opens the doors to allow the passengers to board before the guard arrives, and on a couple of occasions we then had to be turfed out to allow the train to depart empty. I guess that the non-availability of the guard is not necessarily known before the unit departs Newton Heath ECS.

There have been other days when the guard has arrived late, causing the following Pendolino to wait on the Stockport viaduct for Platform 2 to clear.

 

[455driver]

I saw one of the Northern agency workers on a train today. He came along and collected rubbish and didn't interfere with the guard's job - now for the passengers putting up with filthy trains that's a welcome addition.

One might like to ask how the trains get in such a filthy state in the first place?

 

[TOCDriver]

I was that driver...

No one rang me or my instructor when we were sat in the saloon with our phones on for 45 minutes at Heaton Norris Junction, nor did the dispatcher wave us down to explain. First I learned was from a young customer on the platform at Stockport. My instructor got out and asked the dispatcher, who "thought" we'd been told. Doesn't look good i'll agree... :roll:

Absolutely no surprise whatsoever. Control are ok IF (and IF being the operative word) you can get in touch with them

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Keighley to Leeds is under half an hour by train but 90 minutes by bus at peak time. Over an hour's drive too - especially with a lot of extra people on the road. And there's still quite a few people round here who, like me, don't drive.

But when there is no train service available, such comparisons between train and car carry no weight. I agree that there are people who do not drive, but there are a great number who do so.

 

[A-driver]

I was that driver...

No one rang me or my instructor when we were sat in the saloon with our phones on for 45 minutes at Heaton Norris Junction, nor did the dispatcher wave us down to explain. First I learned was from a young customer on the platform at Stockport. My instructor got out and asked the dispatcher, who "thought" we'd been told. Doesn't look good i'll agree... :roll:

May be worth being cautious with such posts-management have been known to visit websites like this one and staff need to be careful not to identify themselves so obviously...they can easily work out who you are from that post and should you say anything on here in the future which they take issue with they may know who you are...

 

[Deerfold]

But when there is no train service available, such comparisons between train and car carry no weight. I agree that there are people who do not drive, but there are a great number who do so.

They indicate the potential degree of disruption and inconvenience to people. I suspect that if the majority of people who commute by train were to drive in to Leeds there may be something of a shortage of parking spaces too.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

May be worth being cautious with such posts-management have been known to visit websites like this one and staff need to be careful not to identify themselves so obviously...they can easily work out who you are from that post and should you say anything on here in the future which they take issue with they may know who you are...

Northern has an IT policy (or is it an IS policy now) which Silv1983 may not have seen, being a driver, it might be worth a few minutes of his time finding and reading it, but so far I'd say that Silv1983 was mostly within it.

The latest company propaganda was interesting, they say that G4S is collectively represented by the GMB Trade Union and that Northern does not recognise that union. They then claim that 'revenue share' of tickets means employing staff directly is not 'cost effective'. Further, they say that employing the agency staff (termed as 'workers') now would 'probably' breach the terms of the franchise, which apparently has 'severe penalties'.

In otherwords, they could have hired staff, but didn't want to (too expensive), they still can hire staff, but they don't want to (too expensive).

Now they say that RMT members are voting to sack agency staff, which, as a minimum, is a distortion of the truth.

 

[michael769]

They then claim that 'revenue share' of tickets means employing staff directly is not 'cost effective'.

Translation: we made the DfT and offer that we now realise made poor business sense and bitterly regret the position we have put ourselves in. We are now desperately scrabbling about trying to cut costs wherever we can, without any regard for maintaining a quality service or sustainable business.

Now they say that RMT members are voting to sack agency staff, which, as a minimum, is a distortion of the truth.

To be fair that is what would happen for some - it is somewhat improbably that all the agency staff could be TUPEd into permanent roles.

 

[A-driver]

Northern has an IT policy (or is it an IS policy now) which Silv1983 may not have seen, being a driver, it might be worth a few minutes of his time finding and reading it, but so far I'd say that Silv1983 was mostly within it.

I'm not concerned weather what is posted is within the 'rules', more that his employer can identify him from that post and so a future post, possibly in the heat of the moment, may cause trouble.

I and many other rail staff on here are very careful not to give too clearer a picture of who they are-I would never indicate that I was driving a particular train or give away too much about which depot I'm based at, my age etc so if I was to say anything against my employers it would be hard to prove it was me.

I do know if people who have been disciplined on other rail forums for posting something which the company has objected to and they have been able to read through posts similar to 'silv1983' posted and identify them. SWT are especially bad for this.

Just be cautious what you post on here and other forums.

 

[Silv1983]

May be worth being cautious with such posts-management have been known to visit websites like this one and staff need to be careful not to identify themselves so obviously...they can easily work out who you are from that post and should you say anything on here in the future which they take issue with they may know who you are...

I appreciate the concern but my 10 pence worth was fairly tame. That's why I didn't criticise my employer, VT or Network Rail. Just enlightening those who are interested - that some pieces of puzzle are lost last minute causing some awkward moments for other staff.

 

[A-driver]

I appreciate the concern but my 10 pence worth was fairly tame. That's why I didn't criticise my employer, VT or Network Rail. Just enlightening those who are interested - that some pieces of puzzle are lost last minute causing some awkward moments for other staff.

I appreciate that and as I say in the above post, that post itself is not going to get you into trouble. As I say though, claiming to be the driver on a specific service on a specific day means the company now know your name on here and who you are so of you were to post anything else which the company don't like they will be able to identify you.

Just don't want to se any other staff members being disciplined or worse for posting things on here thinking its un-traceable as I ha seen it happen before.

 

[northwichcat]

One might like to ask how the trains get in such a filthy state in the first place?

By having high loads and rarely being cleaned properly.

How clean would your kitchen floor be if hundreds of people came from outside and walked across it everyday and you rarely cleaned it? Never mind about the fact that crumbs of food may be dropped or that you might let some coffee splash.

 

[Silv1983]

I appreciate that and as I say in the above post, that post itself is not going to get you into trouble. As I say though, claiming to be the driver on a specific service on a specific day means the company now know your name on here and who you are so of you were to post anything else which the company don't like they will be able to identify you.

Just don't want to se any other staff members being disciplined or worse for posting things on here thinking its un-traceable as I ha seen it happen before.

Okay thanks for the heads up. I know the police trawl online forums for opportunities to punish their staff: but I think Northern's tech savy staff are too busy tweeting . I have no issues with them knowing who I am - because i'm usually fighting their corner to be honest!