Northern Rail Drivers Strike

[Greenback]

I'll bet! New facts on the ground for the next set of harmonisation. Frankly if ASLSF's demands are as stated by JCollins then no management will concede.

I'm sure that the union agrees with you. It's not achievable, certainly not as part of one round of pay talks.

Even if the union hierarchy are stupid, which I don't think they are for one second, the workforce know it's not realistic.
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Isn't the pay variance to be expected due to privatisation? Companies paying what they think the role is worth/can justify. This then creates a competitive job market. Theoretically then, the TOCs that get it right will have a driven workforce that drives revenue through great customer service and high standards.

I love the irony that it's the creation of an artificial market that has helped to drive salaries up.

I also love the irony that some of those who often support the idea of markets and competition suddenly balk at the very same thing when it comes to benefitting the employees, rather than the city.

 

[mafeu]

I'm sure that the union agrees with you. It's not achievable, certainly not as part of one round of pay talks.

Even if the union hierarchy are stupid, which I don't think they are for one second, the workforce know it's not realistic.
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I love the irony that it's the creation of an artificial market that has helped to drive salaries up.

I also love the irony that some of those who often support the idea of markets and competition suddenly balk at the very same thing when it comes to benefitting the employees, rather than the city.

The fat cats only care about lining their own pockets!

 

[bnm]

how is 2.7% twice the current rate of inflation

Not to mention this is a negotiation over something that should have been settled in April , so taking into account the fact that RPI in April was 2.5% this is only 0.2% higher then inflation next year , and potentially a real term freeze of pay next year with there being a chance that staff could only end up with an inflation level payrise .

Since 2003 the measure of inflation used by Government has been the Consumer Price Index. That is currently 1.2%. In the period since April 2014 it has averaged 1.58%. So currently 2.7% is more than twice the current rate of inflation, and 70% more than the average since April.

Yes RPI is higher, currently at 2.3%, with a high since April of 2.5%. Average the two indexes and you get a figure around 2%. The Northern pay award is still comfortably above inflation however you look at it. And yet the drivers want more. Well, good luck to all their colleagues in lesser grades who are highly unlikely to be as fortunate. Good luck to Northern's passengers who may well experience the cost cutting in other parts of the business just to line the driver's pockets. :roll:

 

[SF-02]

Govt use RPI when it suits them but ignore when it doesn't. Rail fare increases are based on RPI which means 2.5% in Jan.

 

[455driver]

I'd be very surprised if the issues were limited to the quoted pay rise. If it were me personally, and there no strings and no other issues I'd be happy with 2.7%.

We did accept 2.7% without strings.

But if there were strings attached, and I felt that I was owed something for a late offer, rostering problems or other things that management had messed up, then I expect I would feel differently.

I get the feeling that the drivers are fed up to the back teeth with p+sspoor rostering, units never getting repaired and the general attitude of the management.
This vote is about a lot more than the pay offer and that letter they sent out to the drivers would have been a red rag to a bull and probably persuaded a lot of drivers to vote no whereas they normally wouldnt have bothered voting at all.

 

[ComUtoR]

Since 2003 the measure of inflation used by Government has been the Consumer Price Index. That is currently 1.2%. In the period since April 2014 it has averaged 1.58%. So currently 2.7% is more than twice the current rate of inflation, and 70% more than the average since April.

Both RPI and CPI are measures of inflation. They are calculated differently and have different basket items and weighting. RPI has been used traditionally for wage increases. A switch to CPI as a measure for wage increases would also need to be discussed. I'm not sure (as I'm not a Driver at Northern) if their T&C's state anything about minimum increases or anything about the use of RPI.

Yes RPI is higher, currently at 2.3%, with a high since April of 2.5%. Average the two indexes and you get a figure around 2%. The Northern pay award is still comfortably above inflation however you look at it.

Averaging both figures is a fallacious argument. All you are doing is manipulating the % to suit whatever stance you want to take. Rightly or Wrongly RPI is a yardstick to which they are measuring their pay. However one of life's most important costs are not included in the CPI figure. Your Mortgage. Both measures are artificial creations and are felt differently from person to person.

Do you remember when pension rises were switched from RPI to CPI ?


At the end of the day you need to look a the bottom line and decide if you will be financially better off with your current wage and whether or not its worth fighting to cover your personal increased cost of living.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There is a meeting set for Monday between ASLE&F and the manglement. From my point of view (as a Guard) is it was felt that the offer was low (not by much) but low. My opinion is that if they had offered 3% no strings people would have accepted it. However, Once a certain HR director posted a certain letter to the drivers to say it got the drivers riled is an understatement. That and a few other issues caused (in my opinion) the very large turnout and Yes vote. As a Guard we have had a referendum instead of a ballot and I wouldn't be surprised if that will be a similar result as the drivers as a lot of us feel the RMT has let us down (again). I don't want to take industrial action BUT I will if it came to it like the vast majority of my colleagues. Alex Hynes is a more approachable MD but he has a lot of damage to repair courtesy of the previous MD.

 

[Robertj21a]

The offer seems very good when compared to the minimal increases in other organisations. I'm amazed that it wasn't accepted - seems most odd that people don't have the guts to simply rise above receiving a 'nasty' letter.

 

[8J]

.
Are you for real ?

Have you rather overlooked the simple fact that those same Shareholders are the very people who actually own the company ?. Would you be happy to lend some of your own money to a company that didn't pay you a fair return ?

Yes I am for real because if you look on the internet, it is scattered with articles of how much is being paid out to shareholders of Northern being in the tens of millions of pounds. Surely this is too much for a company that relies so heavily on subsidy!

 

[Greenback]

The offer seems very good when compared to the minimal increases in other organisations. I'm amazed that it wasn't accepted - seems most odd that people don't have the guts to simply rise above receiving a 'nasty' letter.

I truly doubt the letter was nasty. It's more likely to cause offence and have the opposite effect to what was intended if, for example, it's taken as being patronising, or an attempt at blackmail.

 

[8J]

It also manipulated figures...

 

[Jamesb1974]

The offer seems very good when compared to the minimal increases in other organisations. I'm amazed that it wasn't accepted - seems most odd that people don't have the guts to simply rise above receiving a 'nasty' letter.

Seriously????

At what point in ANY job, profession or organisation do you think that the workers sit and ponder the point that someone else in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT and therefore, irrelevant position gets less than them?

Should we all now be sitting and biting our nails and thinking 'Gosh! That guy there, who does a totally different job to me and is skilled in totally different ways got an X% pay rise and lucky old me, who is skilled to do something totally different, got Y%!'.

Your comment is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't matter what other organisations get as a pay rise. We are talking about private sector employees, not public sector employees held down to minimal pay rises by Government policy. The two are only comparible in the minds of those that suffer from a lack of ambition to change their circumstances or those suffering from a blinding case of wage envy.

 

[455driver]

The offer seems very good when compared to the minimal increases in other organisations. I'm amazed that it wasn't accepted - seems most odd that people don't have the guts to simply rise above receiving a 'nasty' letter.

Bit jealous are we luv! :roll:
Why dont you aim your ire at people who have given themselves 10% (or more) payrises over the last year and on considerably larger salaries than a train driver could ever earn!

 

[SF-02]

The offer seems very good when compared to the minimal increases in other organisations. I'm amazed that it wasn't accepted - seems most odd that people don't have the guts to simply rise above receiving a 'nasty' letter.

Oh not this old chestnut. Definition of race to the bottom. There's always someone worse off but that doesn't mean all others should be dragged down to that level. Instead they should be lifted up.

 

[Robertj21a]

Bit jealous are we luv! :roll:
Why dont you aim your ire at people who have given themselves 10% (or more) payrises over the last year and on considerably larger salaries than a train driver could ever earn!

Ha Ha, hardly jealous of a train driver !

I'm simply an outsider looking in. Most people in the UK would be happy to accept such an offer, let alone anyone who is already on a good salary.

 

[muz379]

Since 2003 the measure of inflation used by Government has been the Consumer Price Index. That is currently 1.2%. In the period since April 2014 it has averaged 1.58%. So currently 2.7% is more than twice the current rate of inflation, and 70% more than the average since April.

Yes RPI is higher, currently at 2.3%, with a high since April of 2.5%. Average the two indexes and you get a figure around 2%. The Northern pay award is still comfortably above inflation however you look at it. And yet the drivers want more. Well, good luck to all their colleagues in lesser grades who are highly unlikely to be as fortunate. Good luck to Northern's passengers who may well experience the cost cutting in other parts of the business just to line the driver's pockets. :roll:

Right , so when it suits we can use CPI and when it doesnt we can use RPI wonderful . RPI does not take into account the cost of housing which at the moment is growing ever more . Why should people get a payrise using a measure of inflation that does not take into account increases in what could be one of their biggest areas of expenditure ?

As for your talk of "lesser grades" you have just shown you have no idea what you are talking about

As this is a non management pay grade pay discussion even though other grades have not gone on strike the figure eventually settled on will be that paid to all unions . Unless Northern want to try and separate out grades which would be a very unwise thing to do . Divide and rule and all that .

Why single out drivers for "lining their pockets" anyway . Why is it acceptable for the shareholders to take home a share of the £38Mil profits when passengers are traveling around on short formed trains made of ancient rolling stock held together by masking tape ? I know stock allocation is a lot to do with the DFT however the way the stock is maintained and utilized is not .

Why is it acceptable that costs are being cut in other passenger facing areas so that shareholders can benefit - Lets just look at the G4s/STM farce with subcontracting and casualisation of revenue staff in this franchise .

And yet suddenly when drivers want a decent rise because they are the ones amongst other grades who actually make the TOC the money they are told no and posters like you seem to think that they are greedy for wanting to line their pickets .

I get the feeling that the drivers are fed up to the back teeth with p+sspoor rostering, units never getting repaired and the general attitude of the management.
This vote is about a lot more than the pay offer and that letter they sent out to the drivers would have been a red rag to a bull and probably persuaded a lot of drivers to vote no whereas they normally wouldnt have bothered voting at all.

Funilly enough speaking to a number of drivers at different depots this is the way I see things as well .

The headline will be about them striking for pay . But the reality at a lot of depots is that there are issues that are also being channeled .

To get to a point where such a large majority both vote when balloted and vote for strike action you must look and ask why morale has fallen so low that people want to forfeit a days wage to make a point .
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Ha Ha, hardly jealous of a train driver !

I'm simply an outsider looking in. Most people in the UK would be happy to accept such an offer, let alone anyone who is already on a good salary.

but then how many times do you think people should be compelled to accept a lower pay offer before you no longer have a good salary .

ASLEF actually in my view addressed this point very well in a statement to its drivers . Aslef stands in solidarity with Unison , Unite , teachers unions etc etc in their plight for a fair wage increase . However it does not represent people working in those industries it is paid for by and to represent train drivers and it will take any action it sees necessary to get its members what they feel they should fairly get .
Aslef , and many train drivers I have spoken to think that Nurses , teachers etc etc should get an equal if not higher pay rise . However they are not in a situation to effect that change and them forfeiting their pay rise is not going to lead to that happening .

 

[Greenback]

I'm delighted to see proposals put forward that everyone should get the same, regardless of what they do, who they are employed by and how well their business is doing.

How refreshing to see some support for proper socialism on here at last. And a recognition that 'the market' doesn't always work well.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm delighted to see proposals put forward that everyone should get the same, regardless of what they do, who they are employed by and how well their business is doing.

Why don't we ask Eastern Europe how that worked for them?

There should be variance in wages between roles. Should the 15 year old with a Saturday job at Sainsburys get paid the same rate as the CEO? If the answer is yes wouldn't that discourage young people from further education and training?

There is a big difference between TOCs and other businesses:

If a TOC would be loss making, then they get a grant from DfT and then the company who has the franchise is profitable (even if the franchise is loss-making) and because the company is profitable employees wouldn't see pay freezes as acceptable.

With other unprofitable businesses they may have a large profitable company who are the majority shareholder. Then they may get a loan off the majority shareholder to meet any shortfalls in outgoings. However, if the business remains unprofitable for too long then it's not just pay freezes people face but being asked to take pay cuts, redundancies, being asked to change roles or to take on more responsibility without getting a pay rise to go with it.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Ha Ha, hardly jealous of a train driver !

I'm simply an outsider looking in. Most people in the UK would be happy to accept such an offer, let alone anyone who is already on a good salary.

But you're missing the point completely. Again.

We aren't talking about 'most people' (which is a statement that you cannot evidence anyway, as you haven't talked to 'most people'), we are talking about a specific set of professionals in a specific role, arguing about their pay and conditions with their employer.

Compared to other TOCs and FOCs, Northern's driver pay clearly isn't 'good', otherwise they wouldn't be arguing about it.

 

[bnm]

Why single out drivers for "lining their pockets" anyway . Why is it acceptable for the shareholders to take home a share of the £38Mil profits when passengers are traveling around on short formed trains made of ancient rolling stock held together by masking tape ? I know stock allocation is a lot to do with the DFT however the way the stock is maintained and utilized is not .

Why is it acceptable that costs are being cut in other passenger facing areas so that shareholders can benefit - Lets just look at the G4s/STM farce with subcontracting and casualisation of revenue staff in this franchise .

And yet suddenly when drivers want a decent rise because they are the ones amongst other grades who actually make the TOC the money they are told no and posters like you seem to think that they are greedy for wanting to line their pickets .

Dividend paid to shareholders in the most recent financials (to Jan 4th 2014) £28.3million. From a profit of £30.1m. Not sure where your extra £8m is coming from. Leaving out tax and looking at 2013's figures perhaps. Same charge can be levelled at you for using figures that suit your point of view.

Factor in the pension fund contributions and deferred tax and the profit is down to £27.2m

Don't want the business giving the best possible return to investors, something they are legally required to do? Campaign for nationalisation then. Investors also make the TOC money.

Staff cost in that period to Jan 4th 2014 were £215.2m. 3361 operational staff, 893 Engineering and Maintenance and 748 Administration and Support. Director remuneration does not come from Northern Rail Holdings Ltd. They are paid through either Abellio Transport Holdings Ltd, Abellio Transport Holdings BV, or Serco Ltd. Complaints about what the directors are paid in this thread are therefore somewhat misplaced. Their remuneration has no effect on Northern Rail's balance sheet.

1,414 of those staff are drivers. Let's say an average driver wage of £40,000 taking account of the difference between East and West, and the handful of Trainee and Depot/Shunting drivers that earn less. That would make the driver salary bill £56.6m. A necessary cost but, for comparison, twice that of the dividends paid in the 52 weeks to Jan 4th 2014. A 2.7% increase takes that annual driver salary bill up by £1.5m. That doesn't seem too bad, but the drivers of course want more.

Drivers salaries make up 9.25% of the operating expenditure of Northern Rail.

 

[Class 170101]

From my time on the railway, 35 years Management will be stuffed
If you have no drivers you have no trains. It will not be long before the bosses will be creeping back with all the drivers want, and the HR Man who wrote the letter will be getting marching orders.

I wouldn't neccessarily hold your breath on that one. Think about EMT recently, they just shut up shop and ran buses for the most part over their network. Some trains to / from London with ticket acceptance on other operators services.

 

[Robertj21a]

But you're missing the point completely. Again.

We aren't talking about 'most people' (which is a statement that you cannot evidence anyway, as you haven't talked to 'most people'), we are talking about a specific set of professionals in a specific role, arguing about their pay and conditions with their employer.

Compared to other TOCs and FOCs, Northern's driver pay clearly isn't 'good', otherwise they wouldn't be arguing about it.

I think you will find that I am not 'missing the point completely, Again' - rather that I am, seemingly, one of the few contributing to this thread who is totally unaffected by the issue and can, therefore be more objective than most.

Your comments about talking to most people are rather ridiculous since you've missed the point entirely. It's factually correct to state that most employees across the UK have received minimal pay increases in recent times, certainly not in the 2.7% and 2.5% ranges. Consequently, my statement holds true 'Most people in the UK would be happy to accept such an offer'.

 

[Tomnick]

Are there any changes to T&Cs etc tied into this pay offer? For those who can't see beyond the headline salary, a 2.7% pay rise with no strings attached is a completely different kettle of fish to a 2.7% pay rise with increased productivity, adverse changes to T&Cs and so on.

A 2.7% pay rise, we're told, pushes the drivers' salary bill up by £1.5m. How much would could be saved in training costs, though, if drivers felt valued rather than being generally demotivated seeking to move onto another operator as soon as possible? I suspect, incidentally, that their dissatisfaction with their employer extends far beyond their basic salary.

 

[455driver]

The drivers would.probably be happy with the pay rate if they had decent shifts and conditions, because they don't have either (and they are totally demoralised) they have just stuck 2 fingers up to the management.

The next move has to come from the management and it had better be a good one.
It's going to be interesting whatever they come up with.

 

[Robertj21a]

The drivers would.probably be happy with the pay rate if they had decent shifts and conditions, because they don't have either (and they are totally demoralised) they have just stuck 2 fingers up to the management.

The next move has to come from the management and it had better be a good one.
It's going to be interesting whatever they come up with.

So why didn't they sort out the shifts and conditions separately rather than getting it all bogged down during a pay negotiation. It's often better to have a couple of smaller bites to get what you want rather than a big bite which might appear more unreasonable.

 

[455driver]

So why didn't they sort out the shifts and conditions separately rather than getting it all bogged down during a pay negotiation. It's often better to have a couple of smaller bites to get what you want rather than a big bite which might appear more unreasonable.

Who is they?
ASLEF couldn't sort it out because management won't listen.

 

[Tomnick]

Why would they want to sort it out separately anyway? Terms and conditions are an integral part of most pay deals, quite sensibly.

 

[Robertj21a]

Who is they?
ASLEF couldn't sort it out because management won't listen.

Have the management categorically refused to listen or is that just the staff and/or Union interpretation. Management often perceive things in a very different way to their staff and, inevitably, struggle to get their point of view over if the staff are hell-bent on not listening or just being plain awkward [and, yes, I do have plenty of experience in such matters, albeit not railways]

 

[Llama]

Based on the number of issues that are raised to management by reps again and again for years on end, it is harder work than it should be trying to get management to engage in meaningful dialogue leading to action to address those issues.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Your comments about talking to most people are rather ridiculous since you've missed the point entirely. It's factually correct to state that most employees across the UK have received minimal pay increases in recent times, certainly not in the 2.7% and 2.5% ranges. Consequently, my statement holds true 'Most people in the UK would be happy to accept such an offer'.

If you're going to have an argument, at least do your research first.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/24/uk-average-workers-pay-rise-inflation


The Median pay rise across the UK is 2.5%, with the national minimum wage set to rise by even more than that.

So your statement that "It's factually correct to state that most employees across the UK have received minimal pay increases in recent times, certainly not in the 2.7% and 2.5% ranges." is not 'factually correct'. It is a piece of poorly researched opinion.