Northern Rail Drivers Strike

[Wolfie]

Seriously????

At what point in ANY job, profession or organisation do you think that the workers sit and ponder the point that someone else in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT and therefore, irrelevant position gets less than them?

Should we all now be sitting and biting our nails and thinking 'Gosh! That guy there, who does a totally different job to me and is skilled in totally different ways got an X% pay rise and lucky old me, who is skilled to do something totally different, got Y%!'.

Your comment is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't matter what other organisations get as a pay rise. We are talking about private sector employees, not public sector employees held down to minimal pay rises by Government policy. The two are only comparible in the minds of those that suffer from a lack of ambition to change their circumstances or those suffering from a blinding case of wage envy.

You are being disingenuous. The 'private sector' organization in question is an economic basket case which only exists due to taxpayer subsidies. There is zero chance said subsidy will be increased to fund bigger payrises for staff.

 

[Robertj21a]

If you're going to have an argument, at least do your research first.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/24/uk-average-workers-pay-rise-inflation


The Median pay rise across the UK is 2.5%, with the national minimum wage set to rise by even more than that.

So your statement that "It's factually correct to state that most employees across the UK have received minimal pay increases in recent times, certainly not in the 2.7% and 2.5% ranges." is not 'factually correct'. It is a piece of poorly researched opinion.

.
Unfortunately, you're only referring to the private sector (which is not what I said). As you seem to like the Guardian for quotes here's one that may explain it for you
http://http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/may/20/pay-rises-private-workforce-public-sector-2014

 

[Jamesb1974]

.
Unfortunately, you're only referring to the private sector (which is not what I said).

And you quite clearly don't understand the meaning of the word 'most'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396804/Private-sector-employment-hits-record-high-whilst-number-people-working-public-sector-falls.html

78.7% private v 21.2% public.

'Most' workers are in the private sector.

So when you said

It's factually correct to state that most employees across the UK have received minimal pay increases in recent times

what you meant by 'Most' was 'less than a quarter of the working population'.

 

[Robertj21a]

And you quite clearly don't understand the meaning of the word 'most'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396804/Private-sector-employment-hits-record-high-whilst-number-people-working-public-sector-falls.html

78.7% private v 21.2% public.

'Most' workers are in the private sector.

So when you said what you meant by 'Most' was 'less than a quarter of the working population'.

No, I said ".......most have received minimal increases, certainly not in the 2.7% and 2.5% ranges". That's quite true, and the fact that your own quote from the Guardian was trumpeting the eventual attainment (for the private sector) of 2.5% in Q1 of 2014 rather emphasises the point.

Please continue arguing if you wish but I have to now go out for a while.

 

[muz379]

Dividend paid to shareholders in the most recent financials (to Jan 4th 2014) £28.3million. From a profit of £30.1m. Not sure where your extra £8m is coming from. Leaving out tax and looking at 2013's figures perhaps. Same charge can be levelled at you for using figures that suit your point of view.

Factor in the pension fund contributions and deferred tax and the profit is down to £27.2m

Don't want the business giving the best possible return to investors, something they are legally required to do? Campaign for nationalisation then. Investors also make the TOC money.

Staff cost in that period to Jan 4th 2014 were £215.2m. 3361 operational staff, 893 Engineering and Maintenance and 748 Administration and Support. Director remuneration does not come from Northern Rail Holdings Ltd. They are paid through either Abellio Transport Holdings Ltd, Abellio Transport Holdings BV, or Serco Ltd. Complaints about what the directors are paid in this thread are therefore somewhat misplaced. Their remuneration has no effect on Northern Rail's balance sheet.

1,414 of those staff are drivers. Let's say an average driver wage of £40,000 taking account of the difference between East and West, and the handful of Trainee and Depot/Shunting drivers that earn less. That would make the driver salary bill £56.6m. A necessary cost but, for comparison, twice that of the dividends paid in the 52 weeks to Jan 4th 2014. A 2.7% increase takes that annual driver salary bill up by £1.5m. That doesn't seem too bad, but the drivers of course want more.

Drivers salaries make up 9.25% of the operating expenditure of Northern Rail.

Sorry I was talking about figures to January 2013 when the franchise made £38.5 million , and paid £34 mil in dividends to the shareholder . Not really picking them to suit me because wether the dividends are £34 million or £24million your argument is still pointless about drivers being the ones wanting to line their pockets at the expense of the public .

I dont actually have a problem with directors of various ilk earning more than drivers because to attract and retain people you have to pay them good money . I however dont think that their massive raises should happen in a vacuum .

your £56.6 mil driver bill figure being more than what the dividends are is a pointless fact . Because that £56.6mil pays 1400 drivers wheras the £24million divident goes to how many shareholders ?

Ok here is another for you anyway , they want more than the 2.7% offered , but you think the strike is unreasonable .
What would you say to the drivers leaving the franchise in numbers , and those that are planning on leaving next time other operators advertise . Aslef also wants an agreement reached on driver retention because this is something they see as a problem that could face the franchise in the not so distant future .
If 82% of drivers are prepared to go on strike for a decent raise . How many are also annoyed about the various issues being channeled through this ballot and are looking for ways out of the franchise . And do you not think this is going to have a big effect on the public ? .

Financially what is more cost effective . Paying £2million in increased wages .

Or paying out the money for training lots more drivers , and paying for the disruption caused by shortages ? .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All I will say is this

Drivers are now actually WANTING to join First group (TPE in this case)

A few years ago that would never have happned

Thats how bad relations between Northern Drivers and Management has got.

 

[Jamesb1974]

No, I said ".......most have received minimal increases, certainly not in the 2.7% and 2.5% ranges". That's quite true, and the fact that your own quote from the Guardian was trumpeting the eventual attainment (for the private sector) of 2.5% in Q1 of 2014 rather emphasises the point.

Please continue arguing if you wish but I have to now go out for a while.

Well a one person argument doesn't really work does it? Much like you claim that 'most' workers received minimal wage increases.

Argue it anyway you want, but you were alluding to the low increases in the public sector while not actually researching what percentage of workers there are in the private sector compared to public.

I'm done now.

 

[bnm]

Let's not forget. Northern Rail drivers are refusing a very generous, above inflation (on either measure), comparable to other private sector pay awards, 2.7%.

I stand by my comments that pushing (and striking) for more is just lining their pockets.

 

[Tomnick]

This 2.7% that everyone's fixated by - is it, as I've already asked, 'no strings' or is it ties into changes to T&Cs that makes it worth less than 2.7% once those are accounted for? It's not normally as straightforward as a simple change to the basic salary...!

I'm sure that the very poor industrial relations are playing a part too. They'd probably be more inclined to accept a lesser offer if they felt valued and well treated in their work, which apparently they don't.

From the point of view of the franchise, if wages fall even further behind those of other TOCs, how much more will it cost to replace the inevitably increasing number of drivers who want to jump ship?

 

[Llama]

Let's not forget. Northern Rail drivers are refusing a very generous, above inflation (on either measure), comparable to other private sector pay awards, 2.7%.

I stand by my comments that pushing (and striking) for more is just lining their pockets.

February 2014 RPI, the figure that matters for this pay deal, was 2.7%.

 

[muz379]

Let's not forget. Northern Rail drivers are refusing a very generous, above inflation (on either measure), comparable to other private sector pay awards, 2.7%.

I stand by my comments that pushing (and striking) for more is just lining their pockets.

Are you a Northern passenger ?

 

[northwichcat]

All I will say is this

Drivers are now actually WANTING to join First group (TPE in this case)

A few years ago that would never have happned

Thats how bad relations between Northern Drivers and Management has got.

Aren't TPE drivers now among the highest paid drivers in the country?

 

[Llama]

No, there are plenty who earn more, ie EC, VT, XC, Chiltern, LM, LO, DBS, GBRF et al I think.

One of the things that keep a lot of drivers at Northern (west) is the restday pattern. On the whole the drivers I work with aren't money orientated but years of poor industrial relations tends to have an effect on feelings towards an employer.

 

[northwichcat]

No, there are plenty who earn more, ie EC, VT, XC, Chiltern, LM, LO, DBS, GBRF et al I think.

I meant to say excluding operators who serve London.

According to the ASLEF site LM drivers would need a 7.5% rise to bring them up to the same level as TPE drivers and they've managed to get ex-CT drivers paid the same as ex-Silverlink drivers.

XC drivers are indeed paid more than TPE.

 

[Llama]

TPE have Sundays in the working week, LM and Chiltern et al are paid extra for Sundays as they are outside the working week. The figures on the Aslef page aren't always up to date or accurate.

 

[ComUtoR]

TPE have Sundays in the working week, LM and Chiltern et al are paid extra for Sundays as they are outside the working week. The figures on the Aslef page aren't always up to date or accurate.

The figures are for base salary and doesn't include various extras.

Thanks for highlighting a point so far not addressed, until a nice Northern Driver can post some facts. Terms and Conditions can make or break a deal. If we were talking about a flat 2.7% rise with no conditions then it may be another discussion.

Most... Other industries will often give you a pay rise without any additional condition changes. I would be more than willing to accept a rise in my personal salary if it didn't come with a loss elsewhere or a change which I couldn't stomach.

Isn't there another thread here with a heated discussion about the loss of Sundays and workers rights etc ?

 

[Llama]

The figures on Aslef's site include TPE's 2014 pay rise but not LM's.

LM are the most directly comparable TOC to Northern by way of terms & conditions and nature of work.

 

[455driver]

This 2.7% that everyone's fixated by - is it, as I've already asked, 'no strings' or is it ties into changes to T&Cs that makes it worth less than 2.7% once those are accounted for? It's not normally as straightforward as a simple change to the basic salary...!

Its a straight forward 2.7% no strings offer.

I'm sure that the very poor industrial relations are playing a part too. They'd probably be more inclined to accept a lesser offer if they felt valued and well treated in their work, which apparently they don't.

This is all about industrial relations, the drivers are completely disillusioned with the way they are being treated.

From the point of view of the franchise, if wages fall even further behind those of other TOCs, how much more will it cost to replace the inevitably increasing number of drivers who want to jump ship?

If you include the fixed costs then its about £200k (or something like that, it does seem to jump between £100K and £300K depending what point people are trying to make) per driver to get a person off the street, train them up, and get them productive. These new drivers also require about 5 times the management time in their 1st year compared to a longer serving driver due to the extra monitoring they require. So a need to keep replacing drivers who jump ship has a huge financial implication to the Company over about 2 years, !st year training and 2nd year monitoring.

 

[WCMLaddict]

ComUtoR, there were no strings attached to the deal. West would walk out of talks straight away if any were proposed and East don't have any left to sell

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers folks

 

[northwichcat]

Most... Other industries will often give you a pay rise without any additional condition changes. I would be more than willing to accept a rise in my personal salary if it didn't come with a loss elsewhere or a change which I couldn't stomach.

With most other industries you don't get a union trying to double the original pay offer and then the employer wanting to compromise by changing T&Cs in exchange for doubling the pay offer.

Would you be happier with a RPI increase for this year and no guarantee of an increase next year?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you include the fixed costs then its about £200k (or something like that, it does seem to jump between £100K and £300K depending what point people are trying to make) per driver to get a person off the street, train them up, and get them productive. These new drivers also require about 5 times the management time in their 1st year compared to a longer serving driver due to the extra monitoring they require. So a need to keep replacing drivers who jump ship has a huge financial implication to the Company over about 2 years, !st year training and 2nd year monitoring.

That's pretty much a unique problem for the rail industry. In any other industry trainees in the 1st year would be low paid apprentices and you'd need to be a trained before you can get a salary of over £15,000 nevermind £40,000. While for other highly skilled roles where you get a good starting salary it's assumed you have most/all of the skills required before you start employment and the employers don't invest much in on-the-job training.

 

[ComUtoR]

Would you be happier with a RPI increase for this year and no guarantee of an increase next year?

Yes.

In previous employment I have either had no pay rise, performance rises, and cost of living rises. I cannot tell you which is better except that each reflected where I was employed. I only speak for myself that if I was offered a single pay rise with no terms I would weigh the money and accept accordingly (IF I had a choice)

I fully support ANY employees fight in their increase in wages or their fight for better working conditions.

 

[driver_m]

Let's not forget. Northern Rail drivers are refusing a very generous, above inflation (on either measure), comparable to other private sector pay awards, 2.7%.

I stand by my comments that pushing (and striking) for more is just lining their pockets.

Seeing as most workers would compare what their rise is, to those of rival companies. Then I would say that seeing as others like EMT and VT are around 3% then it is below average. Seriously do you think that someone at asda gets a payrise, would they then compare it to the whole private sector? No, they'd look at their tesco and aldi rivals. Secondly the refusal to accept has a lot to do with the appalling management relations that they are experiencing at the moment.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Delete Please

 

[PermitToTravel]

If only we could ever see a turnout like that one in elections hock:

 

[DJH1971]

But there is also drivers in the RMT, is there?

 

[ComUtoR]

But there is also drivers in the RMT, is there?

Also no doubt, some non union members.

 

[Llama]

Very few drivers are non-union members, I don't know any, and there are certainly none amongst the 200ish drivers at my home depot. RMT membership might be about 10% at the most.

 

[ComUtoR]

Very few drivers are non-union members

About 20% of SE are non union.

The strength of ASLEF differs across the regions. With some RMT Drivers coming up from previous grades they haven't switched unions and have remained loyal. New Drivers have come from various sectors and are not used to a high union involvement and are reticent to join although tend to end up joining.

In the event of a strike a skeleton service will be possible. If the TOC decides to call the unions hand then its going to cost Drivers in terms of pay and the TOC in terms of the service and fines. Is there a clause in the franchise agreement that covers strikes ?

 

[muz379]

But there is also drivers in the RMT, is there?

Also no doubt, some non union members.

I think I saw in a news story somewhere the figures are that out of 1400 drivers 1200 of them are represented by ASLEF . This leaves 200 who are RMT or no union . I know of a handful of RMT drivers at my depot . and a single person not in any union

I dont think that with 200 drivers Northern is even going to be able to operate a skeleton service. And there is no saying what the RMT drivers are going to do . No doubt some will join the strike .