Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Killingworth]

Your probably right but I think if the Eastern Side is not getting HS2 and just an upgrade to the existing TPE route and probably full Electrification of the Midland Line its not going to go down well that's for sure, when you can get to the North West in half the time, never mind the North South divide it will be the East West divide.

It's going to be decades before HS2 East can be completed. MML electrifcation can't be completed within 10 years either, not at present construction speeds anyway. We can concentrate on decarbonising lots of what we've got in the next 20 years and there'll still be many miles to do.

At the present rate of progress with HS2 all the limestone in the Peak District will be cement and Drax certainly won't be burning wood pellets by the time it's complete. All transport markets will have moved on by then.

I'll be up on a cloud watching completion of new baseline tunnels between Sheffield and Manchester, Manchester - Leeds and Leeds - Sheffield all offering fast passenger connections in 25 minutes or less. Those who, over 100 years ago, built the tunnels we're still using must be amazed at our lack of ambition and ability to get things done. How we can't shift many thousand more standard containers around the country when they managed to get small truck loads between thousands of pick up and drop off points using pen and ink to arrange it. Perish the thought, maybe it's an underground freight network we need, a bit like the national oil pipeline that takes oil products from refinery to airfield, but that's a speculative tangent too far.





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[Austriantrain]

but if pre Covid demand returns by 2024 it's not enough. In 2019 there were 5 tph with pretty severe overcrowding especially in the peaks. I think there was a fair bit of suppressed demand and it will prove that 6tph are needed not 4.

That would obviously depend on train capacity… A 200m train will have vastly more of it than an 802 or Mk5 set, let alone a single 185.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2021 ==

The Government has made up its mind. I can’t believe anyone seriously thinks that Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe would have been put forward if it wasn’t going to be part of the end game.

If Huddersfield - Leeds will remain with limited capacity and there is a fully new line Manchester - Huddersfield, could this new line - which I would suppose will have a higher capacity, although that will depend on how it is connected into MAN HS2 station - conceivably be used for Manchester - Huddersfield - Bradford or Manchester - Huddersfield - Wakefield services, so as to increase the reach of its benefits?

 

[Roast Veg]

If Huddersfield - Leeds will remain with limited capacity and there is a fully new line Manchester - Huddersfield, could this new line - which I would suppose will have a higher capacity, although that will depend on how it is connected into MAN HS2 station - conceivably be used for Manchester - Huddersfield - Bradford or Manchester - Huddersfield - Wakefield services, so as to increase the reach of its benefits?

Have you looked at the route from Huddersfield and Bradford on a map?

 

[Austriantrain]

Have you looked at the route from Huddersfield and Bradford on a map?

Sure (and also looked up timings). If the NPR time from Manchester to Leeds will be around 30 minutes and Huddersfield to Leeds will - as was suggested here - stay on the existing line, Manchester - Huddersfield will need to be very fast, so it is quite possible that Manchester - Bradford will then be faster via Huddersfield than through the Calder Valley. Would also liberate paths there for freight (or at least reduce the need to run fast passenger trains there, making freight easier to integrate).

 

[Purple Orange]

Sure. If the NPR time from Manchester to Leeds will be around 30 minutes and Huddersfield to Leeds will - as was suggested here - stay on the existing line, Manchester - Huddersfield will need to be very fast, so it is quite possible that Manchester - Bradford will then be faster via Huddersfield than through the Calder Valley. Would also liberate paths there for freight (or at least reduce the need to run fast passenger trains there, making freight easier to integrate).

There wouldn’t be the capacity for such a route. As long as NPR utilises the existing line, there can’t be additional services above what is currently planned. The man benefit of the short NPR line is to relieve congestion in Manchester and increase speed.

 

[Austriantrain]

There wouldn’t be the capacity for such a route. As long as NPR utilises the existing line, there can’t be additional services above what is currently planned. The man benefit of the short NPR line is to relieve congestion in Manchester and increase speed.

The premise of my question was that Manchester - Huddersfield would be a completely new line with more capacity than the TRU section between Huddersfield and Leeds. If Manchester - Huddersfield is a mixture of old and new, it wouldn’t work obviously. But then it would also be slower, so no point anyway.

 

[Purple Orange]

The premise of my question was that Manchester - Huddersfield would be a completely new line with more capacity than the TRU section between Huddersfield and Leeds. If Manchester - Huddersfield is a mixture of old and new, it wouldn’t work obviously. But then it would also be slower, so no point anyway.

My hunch is that it will be a new line between Manchester Piccadilly and Greenfield, just east of Stalybridge. That may enable 35 min journey times between Leeds & Manchester.

 

[Austriantrain]

My hunch is that it will be a new line between Manchester Piccadilly and Greenfield, just east of Stalybridge. That may enable 35 min journey times between Leeds & Manchester.

Then of course, my idea is dead in the water because as you pointed out there won’t be the capacity. Thank you!

 

[Purple Orange]

Then of course, my idea is dead in the water because as you pointed out there won’t be the capacity. Thank you!

Of course I might be wrong and you might be right. However our government being what it is, suggests to me that they will go for the bare minimum.

 

[Austriantrain]

Of course I might be wrong and you might be right. However our government being what it is, suggests to me that they will go for the bare minimum.

I don’t believe for a second I will be right (I can add up RTT timings but really can’t tell how much new line is needed to achieve the necessary time savings).

 

[Bald Rick]

As long as NPR utilises the existing line, there can’t be additional services above what is currently planned.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

 

[Purple Orange]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

How would that work then? If say, there was a line starting from the HS2 junction at Ardwick and then rejoining the existing line midway between Manchester & Leeds?

 

[edwin_m]

TRU provides extra capacity between Huddersfield and Leeds by allowing faster trains to overtake stoppers. This probably means that the double track section between Huddersfield and Stalybridge, with only one intermediate loop in each direction, becomes the pinch point. If some or all of that section was bypassed then it's quite likely more trains could operate between Manchester and Leeds.

 

[YorksLad12]

TRU provides extra capacity between Huddersfield and Leeds by allowing faster trains to overtake stoppers. This probably means that the double track section between Huddersfield and Stalybridge, with only one intermediate loop in each direction, becomes the pinch point. If some or all of that section was bypassed then it's quite likely more trains could operate between Manchester and Leeds.

I was thinking something similar on my way out to Liverpool this morning. The TRU build is, effectively, new railway in the way NPR is (or would be). But in order to be NPR-lite there needs to be more of it, and that isn't going to be easy between, say, Stalybridge and Marsden or Ravensthorpe and Morley. So we could end up with a hybrid of an electrified north trans-Pennine route with occasional bypasses for the fast(er) trains only.

 

[Bald Rick]

How would that work then? If say, there was a line starting from the HS2 junction at Ardwick and then rejoining the existing line midway between Manchester & Leeds?

Because as @edwin_m says, the fasts can get past the slower trains. Not dissimilar to the ECML south of Peterborough; some 4 track, some 3, some 2, but all of it can take at least 10tph.


Let’s just wait to see the IRP plans shall we?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Let’s just wait to see the IRP plans shall we

Yes let's!

 

[Purple Orange]

Because as @edwin_m says, the fasts can get past the slower trains. Not dissimilar to the ECML south of Peterborough; some 4 track, some 3, some 2, but all of it can take at least 10tph.


Let’s just wait to see the IRP plans shall we?

Ah I see, ok. So assuming the Victoria frequency is maintained, there could well be 6 tph running to Piccadilly.

PS, I appreciate that some people seem irritated by speculative chat before the IRP is released, but this a speculative thread and also it is useful to ask questions and then understand (as much as it can be).

 

[Austriantrain]

Ah I see, ok. So assuming the Victoria frequency is maintained, there could well be 6 tph running to Piccadilly.

PS, I appreciate that some people seem irritated by speculative chat before the IRP is released, but this a speculative thread and also it is useful to ask questions and then understand (as much as it can be).

It’s how I see it too and also why I post, even though I couldn’t argue I know anything about the topic. It’s curiosity and interest (especially about thinks we would do differently), which explains my stupid questions and strange ideas.

But I will wait for IRP

 

[WestRiding]

Well, there was quite a lot of chat and hints in the media that 18th October was the day for the Integrated Rail Plan to be made public. Doesn't look like its going to be today.

 

[snowball]

Well, there was quite a lot of chat and hints in the media that 18th October was the day for the Integrated Rail Plan to be made public. Doesn't look like its going to be today.

There was an item on the Guardian/Observer website yesterday about the COP26 conference which said that three related documents, due to be published today, had been delayed by the murder of Sir David Amess and would now appear later in the week. The IRP may have been one of those.

 

[Purple Orange]

There was an item on the Guardian/Observer website yesterday about the COP26 conference which said that three related documents, due to be published today, had been delayed by the murder of Sir David Amess and would now appear later in the week. The IRP may have been one of those.

I can see the rationale behind that. If one was the IRP, what would the two other related documents be?

 

[JacobWrenn]

I can see the rationale behind that. If one was the IRP, what would the two other related documents be?

I may be misremembering but I believe there was a trio of papers due including the Heat and Buildings Strategy? I don’t think the IRP was part of those though.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Well, there was quite a lot of chat and hints in the media that 18th October was the day for the Integrated Rail Plan to be made public. Doesn't look like its going to be today.

It's not over until the fat lady sings and she's still got time yet unless it is one of the three documents refered to in post 740.

 

[Purple Orange]

It's not over until the fat lady sings and she's still got time yet unless it is one of the three documents refered to in post 740.

No chance it’ll be changed now, I reckon. If it is changed, I assume we’d see yet many more months delay.

 

[JKF]

I’m hoping they build a fast Leeds-Huddersfield line, because if they do it in an approximately straight line I suspect they will be digging the colliery shale out of Gildersome Tunnel as it’s perfectly aligned.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m hoping they build a fast Leeds-Huddersfield line, because if they do it in an approximately straight line I suspect they will be digging the colliery shale out of Gildersome Tunnel as it’s perfectly aligned.

I’d bet Huddersfield-Leeds NPR will be the Huddersfield-Leeds TRU.

 

[JKF]

I’d bet Huddersfield-Leeds NPR will be the Huddersfield-Leeds TRU.

Yeah, I know, but it’s nice to mentally crayon a route that might involve a parkway station by IKEA with connections to the M62/621 junction.

 

[hwl]

My hunch is that it will be a new line between Manchester Piccadilly and Greenfield, just east of Stalybridge. That may enable 35 min journey times between Leeds & Manchester.

Given the post TRU fast service journey time will be around 39 minutes, the journey time reduction beyond that gets progressive harder, more expensive and less likely to happen. But the Picc journey times are still noticeably slower.
As I previously mentioned there are some cheapish surface option to lift most of the 25-40mph sections via Guide Bridge to equalise Picc/Vic journey time difference a bit more if they don't want to spend much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2021 ==

I’d bet Huddersfield-Leeds NPR will be the Huddersfield-Leeds TRU.

The western approaches to Leeds station would need a bit of additional work to really push frequencies beyond 8

 

[D6130]

The western approaches to Leeds station would need a bit of additional work to really push frequencies beyond 8

Reopen the ex-LNWR viaduct line direct from Farnley Junction into Leeds platforms 15 and 16, by-passing the Holbeck, Whitehall and Leeds West Junction complexes?

 

[JKF]

The western approaches to Leeds station would need a bit of additional work to really push frequencies beyond 8

Was there not a proposal to bring the disused viaduct through Holbeck back into use? It was last used for parking up stock before the Leeds station rebuild.

Edited to add: looking at the map this may require demolition of some industrial buildings that encroach on the formation between where it was connected to the ECML and Farnley Jn, though it doesn’t look insurmountable.