Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Bald Rick]

Plus a 8 minute minimum time penalty for the reverse at Piccadilly and a 5 minute dwell at the station?

Indeed, it should be possible (if there is a driver waiting at the far end of the platform) to reverse entirely within the 5 minute dwell time (or even less).

With ATO and autoreverse, no reason why 3 minutes couldn’t be done.

 

[edwin_m]

If HS2 eastern leg isn't built but Birmingham-Leeds trains run via Manchester, there would still need to be a service via Derby and Sheffield to provide connectivity to those stations. This would run in the pretty much the same timings as currently, probably at the same frequency and would probably still continue beyond Birmingham (but possibly not beyond York).

 

[Killingworth]

If HS2 eastern leg isn't built but Birmingham-Leeds trains run via Manchester, there would still need to be a service via Derby and Sheffield to provide connectivity to those stations. This would run in the pretty much the same timings as currently, probably at the same frequency and would probably still continue beyond Birmingham (but possibly not beyond York).

Wiith HS2 completed to Manchester but without HS2 East the East Midllands and South Yorkshire look likely to end up with poorer connectivity to the northeast and the southwest, certainly not improved..

 

[Purple Orange]

Wiith HS2 completed to Manchester but without HS2 East the East Midllands and South Yorkshire look likely to end up with poorer connectivity to the northeast and the southwest, certainly not improved..

The north east would likely have the train via Manchester run to Newcastle, this improving connectivity to Manchester & Birmingham.

I see no reason why there wouldn’t be a classic XC service on the existing one through Derby anyway. In fact the Midlands Engine Rail plan has accounted for this, seeking to improve frequency to/from Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2021 ==

That may be true if you are only talking about reversing NPR services.

However, in the absence of the HS2 eastern leg (as seems increasingly likely), there seems to be an idea forming that Leeds services to Birmingham and London would run through Manchester. Putting the likelihood of such a scenario actually happening to one side, it's pretty obvious that IF it did happen, it would significantly increase the amount of reversing services, well beyond the capacity of the currently planned layout.

I’d argue it is a safe bet to say there will be no Leeds-London services via Manchester. There may be Newcastle/Leeds-Birmingham via Manchester, but the route to London won’t generate the required time savings IMHO.

Ypubaldo meed to remember that if the NPR line uses the upgraded existing line post TRU, it will be constrained to 4 fast tph between Leeds & Manchester. Liverpool will get the semi-fasts in to Victoria and therefore no more than 4 trains would reverse (no big deal).

 

[Shernan]

Well , TPE services can serve more people if the cars change from the 3 (some 4) into 8 cars. Electrification will also serve the purpose. NPR is just a facade

 

[matacaster]

At present, if there are problems on 2-track section from Leeds to ravensthorpe, there is the option to go via kirkgate. Once TPU update done, assuming line via kirkgate is not electrified, what will be the passenger and freight alternatives available?

 

[59CosG95]

At present, if there are problems on 2-track section from Leeds to ravensthorpe, there is the option to go via kirkgate. Once TPU update done, assuming line via kirkgate is not electrified, what will be the passenger and freight alternatives available?

Well, there'd be no available route for straight electrics. TPE's 802s are bi-modal so they'd be fine, but, assuming Northern uses EMUs on the route via Dewsbury, they'd be cancelled.

 

[matacaster]

Would

Well, there'd be no available route for straight electrics. TPE's 802s are bi-modal so they'd be fine, but, assuming Northern uses EMUs on the route via Dewsbury, they'd be cancelled.

Thanks makes sense I suppose given cost of electrifying kirkgate section (unless that is used for electric freight?). If HS2/NPR trains to Leeds went via Manchester, wouldn't they also use the ravensthorpe to Leeds section - would they terminate at Manchester or Huddersfield?

 

[YorksLad12]

Well, there'd be no available route for straight electrics. TPE's 802s are bi-modal so they'd be fine, but, assuming Northern uses EMUs on the route via Dewsbury, they'd be cancelled.

That's also assuming Northern take back the stopping service and have spare 331s (two?) to run it. By the time TRU is finished we'll be on battery / hydrogen / bionic duckweed fleets anyway

 

[Glenn1969]

That's also assuming Northern take back the stopping service and have spare 331s (two?) to run it. By the time TRU is finished we'll be on battery / hydrogen / bionic duckweed fleets anyway

should we not expect another route (Calder Valley?) to be wired between the end of TRU and the start of NPR? Not just for diversions but to increase the number of catchments that benefit from decarbonisation?

 

[37424]

The north east would likely have the train via Manchester run to Newcastle, this improving connectivity to Manchester & Birmingham.

I see no reason why there wouldn’t be a classic XC service on the existing one through Derby anyway. In fact the Midlands Engine Rail plan has accounted for this, seeking to improve frequency to/from Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2021 ==



I’d argue it is a safe bet to say there will be no Leeds-London services via Manchester. There may be Newcastle/Leeds-Birmingham via Manchester, but the route to London won’t generate the required time savings IMHO.

Ypubaldo meed to remember that if the NPR line uses the upgraded existing line post TRU, it will be constrained to 4 fast tph between Leeds & Manchester. Liverpool will get the semi-fasts in to Victoria and therefore no more than 4 trains would reverse (no big deal).

I'm not sure it is a safe bet to assume there will be no Leeds to London services via Manchester, I guess it may depend on what sort of upgraded TPE route we get and what sort of Journey time we get, even if it isn't much quicker than the existing route the OOC interchange may be more suitable for some customers Journey's. I would also look to see if a potential cord was possible so that some services to Leeds could avoid Manchester Station and speed up the Journey time.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'm not sure it is a safe bet to assume there will be no Leeds to London services via Manchester, I guess it may depend on what sort of upgraded TPE route we get and what sort of Journey time we get, even if it isn't much quicker than the existing route the OOC interchange may be more suitable for some customers Journey's. I would also look to see if a potential cord was possible so that some services to Leeds could avoid Manchester Station and speed up the Journey time.

The TRU has already defined the maximum service frequency of 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers between Leeds & Manchester. If the NPR line rejoins the Trans Pennine mainline at Huddersfield, for instance, it too will be limited to the capacity of TRU. The semi-fasts and stoppers obviously won’t use NPR in to Piccadilly HS2, but that means at most there will be 4 tph running in to Piccadilly.

So how do you then use those paths? What services do you run?

 

[Glenn1969]

The TRU has already defined the maximum service frequency of 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers between Leeds & Manchester. If the NPR line rejoins the Trans Pennine mainline at Huddersfield, for instance, it too will be limited to the capacity of TRU. The semi-fasts and stoppers obviously won’t use NPR in to Piccadilly HS2, but that means at most there will be 4 tph running in to Piccadilly.

So how do you then use those paths? What services do you run?

I still think the "NPR line" will be the TRU line for most of its length.

 

[Purple Orange]

I still think the "NPR line" will be the TRU line for most of its length.

Even if it is, that still means the frequency conditions I stated above remain true.

 

[37424]

The TRU has already defined the maximum service frequency of 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers between Leeds & Manchester. If the NPR line rejoins the Trans Pennine mainline at Huddersfield, for instance, it too will be limited to the capacity of TRU. The semi-fastsvand stoppers obviated won’t use NPR in to Piccadilly HS2, but that means at most there will be 4 tph running in to Piccadilly.

So how do you then use those paths? What services do you run?

If the Eastern leg of HS2 is essentially axed then there would need to be a rethink of how the East Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East is Served, which may include a rethink in term of a Transpennine route which can take some HS2 capacity.

Even without any HS2 capacity that TRU level of capacity is pretty poor if we are just getting TRU and no NPR, but I would accept that in order to get some HS2 capacity your probably going to need to build a substancially new railway.

 

[Glenn1969]

Even if it is, that still means the frequency conditions I stated above remain true.

it does, but that is a big constraint. Especially if as I expect demand lifts in the next couple of years

 

[Purple Orange]

If the Eastern leg of HS2 is essentially axed then there would need to be a rethink of how the East Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East is Served, which may include a rethink in term of a Transpennine route which can take some HS2 capacity.

Even without any HS2 capacity that TRU level of capacity is pretty poor if we are just getting TRU and no NPR

It will need a rethink, but there are only two NPR options: build a completely new line between Manchester & Leeds, or build a partial new line between Manchester & Leeds.

If it’s the former, then yes there may be the journey times and frequency to justify a Leeds-London via Manchester. If it’s the latter, then the capacity constraints of TRU exist. You’ve got to factor in Liverpool services too.

As for TRU capacity, 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers is a pretty good service between Leeds & Manchester. 15 minute intervals on the fasts is pretty much turn-up and go.

 

[Glenn1969]

It will need a rethink, but there are only two NPR options: build a completely new line between Manchester & Leeds, or build a partial new line between Manchester & Leeds.

If it’s the former, then yes there may be the journey times and frequency to justify a Leeds-London via Manchester. If it’s the latter, then the capacity constraints of TRU exist. You’ve got to factor in Liverpool services too.

As for TRU capacity, 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers is a pretty good service between Leeds & Manchester. 15 minute intervals on the fasts is pretty much turn-up and go.

but if pre Covid demand returns by 2024 it's not enough. In 2019 there were 5 tph with pretty severe overcrowding especially in the peaks. I think there was a fair bit of suppressed demand and it will prove that 6tph are needed not 4. Especially if long distance passengers are factored in

 

[37424]

It will need a rethink, but there are only two NPR options: build a completely new line between Manchester & Leeds, or build a partial new line between Manchester & Leeds.

If it’s the former, then yes there may be the journey times and frequency to justify a Leeds-London via Manchester. If it’s the latter, then the capacity constraints of TRU exist. You’ve got to factor in Liverpool services too.

As for TRU capacity, 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers is a pretty good service between Leeds & Manchester. 15 minute intervals on the fasts is pretty much turn-up and go.

I would disagree its not whole lot better than what we have now well pre covid timetable, so why the heck are we spending over 2 billion on the Leeds to Huddersfield for that level of improvement? That's not value for money in my view.

 

[Purple Orange]

it does, but that is a big constraint. Especially if as I expect demand lifts in the next couple of years

6x200m trains between Leeds & Manchester will be a very good capacity increase.

• 2 semi-fast Liverpool-Victoria-Leeds-onwards
• 2 fast Birmingham-Piccadilly-Leeds-Newcastle
• 2 fast Piccadilly-Leeds-onwards

but if pre Covid demand returns by 2024 it's not enough. In 2019 there were 5 tph with pretty severe overcrowding especially in the peaks. I think there was a fair bit of suppressed demand and it will prove that 6tph are needed not 4. Especially if long distance passengers are factored in

It has never been 5 fast. The pre-TRU timetable was 4 fast, 1 semi-fast, 1 stopper, as it is today. Post TRU it’ll be 4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stoppers with faster line speeds.

I would disagree its not whole lot better than what we have now well pre covid timetable, so why the heck are we spending over 2 billion on the Leeds to Huddersfield for that level of improvement? That's not value for money in my view.

Because it’s too slow, unreliable and needs electrifying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

Actually the reason it looks like we have 5 fast today is because the ‘fast’ are too slow you can hardly discern the difference. We essentially have 5 semi-fast and 1 stopper to Huddersfield.

 

[37424]

6x200m trains between Leeds & Manchester will be a very good capacity increase.

• 2 semi-fast Liverpool-Victoria-Leeds-onwards
• 2 fast Birmingham-Piccadilly-Leeds-Newcastle
• 2 fast Piccadilly-Leeds-onwards

It has never been 5 fast. The pre-TRU timetable was 4 fast, 1 semi-fast, 1 stopper, as it is today. Post TRU it’ll be 4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stoppers with faster line speeds.

Because it’s too slow, unreliable and needs electrifying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

Actually the reason it looks like we have 5 fast today is because the ‘fast’ are too slow you can hardly discern the difference. We essentially have 5 semi-fast and 1 stopper to Huddersfield.

Leeds to Huddersfield could be electrified at much cheaper cost if most the infrastructure such the Ravensthorpe up and under junction was binned, which is why the government needs to make its mind up whether we get a new line or not because I don't think both are justified should be one or the other.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leeds to Huddersfield could be electrified at much cheaper cost if most the infrastructure such the Ravensthorpe up and under junction was binned, which is why the government needs to make its mind up whether we get a new line or not because I don't think both are justified should be one or the other.

The Government has made up its mind. I can’t believe anyone seriously thinks that Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe would have been put forward if it wasn’t going to be part of the end game.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

should we not expect another route (Calder Valley?) to be wired between the end of TRU and the start of NPR? Not just for diversions but to increase the number of catchments that benefit from decarbonisation?

I cant see them doing that - it (Calder Valley) is way too important as a diversionary route. They will not have both projects going at the same time.

 

[37424]

The Government has made up its mind. I can’t believe anyone seriously thinks that Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe would have been put forward if it wasn’t going to be part of the end game.

Your probably right but I think if the Eastern Side is not getting HS2 and just an upgrade to the existing TPE route and probably full Electrification of the Midland Line its not going to go down well that's for sure, when you can get to the North West in half the time, never mind the North South divide it will be the East West divide.

 

[Bald Rick]

just an upgrade to the existing TPE route

When does an upgrade become a new line? The Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe project is to all intents and purposes a new line, it just happens to be adjacent to the old one.

 

[Purple Orange]

Your probably right but I think if the Eastern Side is not getting HS2 and just an upgrade to the existing TPE route and probably full Electrification of the Midland Line its not going to go down well that's for sure, when you can get to the North West in half the time, never mind the North South divide it will be the East West divide.

I suspect there won’t be a line between Leeds & Manchester to compensate for the eastern branch. Could be wrong. Time will tell.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suspect there won’t be a line between Leeds & Manchester to compensate for the eastern branch. Could be wrong. Time will tell.

You presumably mean a new line all the way form Leeds to Manchester.

But I suspect there will be infrastructure proposed that enables a 30 minute journey (or thereabouts) from Leeds to Manchester, with a significant capacity uplift.

 

[37424]

When does an upgrade become a new line? The Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe project is to all intents and purposes a new line, it just happens to be adjacent to the old one.

Its a substancial rebuild but I wouldn't call it a new line, if it could cope with at least a dozen+ trains an hour and a 125mph+ linespeed then maybe I would call it a new line, in any case it seems to me your trying to split hairs.

The question is are we going to get a line that could take some HS2 capacity as well as TPE capacity as compensation for a potential loss of the Eastern Leg, or not?

 

[Bald Rick]

Its a substancial rebuild but I wouldn't call it a new line, if it could cope with at least a dozen+ trains an hour and a 125mph+ linespeed then maybe I would call it a new line

Plenty of new lines can’t deal with 12+ trains an hour and 125mph+ !

 

[Purple Orange]

You presumably mean a new line all the way form Leeds to Manchester.

But I suspect there will be infrastructure proposed that enables a 30 minute journey (or thereabouts) from Leeds to Manchester, with a significant capacity uplift.

Yes I agree, this is what I expect the outcome to be. There might be an extension through to Leeds and out to Liverpool after that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

The question is are we going to get a line that could take some HS2 capacity as well as TPE capacity as compensation for a potential loss of the Eastern Leg, or not?

Not, but I think what we do get will take Birmingham-Manchester services on to Leeds.