Northern Class 170's

[yorksrob]

Pontefract Line:

First, you go past the waste recycling facility next to the Freightliner depot.

Then you go past the sewage treatment works just after Woodlesford

Finally you go past some industrial facility in Cas that stinks of organic chemicals.

AC to keep all of that stench out is very welcome when the occasional 158 rocks up.

That goes for the Hallam line as well of course. I don't mind the sewage works so much, but the recycling facility has been really pungent of late

It should also be noted that the route justifies 3 carriage pacers in terms of capacity (not sure that the same can be said of York-Hull for example)

 

[deltic08]

As the 170's are over 40 tons there a bit slow off the mark so with little of Northerns slow dmu routes needing there more than 80mph perhaps regearing them from 100mph max to say 80mph would both improve acceleration and also let them get out of 1st gear currently 65mph. Then ideal for the Harrogate line (line speed max 65) and if tunnel clearance issues resolved the Calder Valley lines (max 80)
K

Leeds-Harrohate-Knaresborough is only 60mph but the signalling has been upgraded for higher speed between Leeds and Harrohate. Higher line speed would be welcome when the limited stop timetable is introduced and the 2-houly Kx service is introduced operated by class 800s.
Parts of York-Knaresborough are 65mph.

 

[edwin_m]

Climbing gradients will also tend to keep the Class 170 in lower gear for longer, especially if it has to re-start from a station on the gradient. This is the case for Horsforth and Headingley (1 in 100) and Knaresborough (1 in 109 starts just beyond the platforms), ascending towards Harrogate in each case. Elsewhere on the route gradients are as steep as 1 in 66. Class 150/153/156, with similar transmissions but geared for lower top speed, are likely to be able to spend more time in the speed range where the engine drives the wheels directly instead of wasting energy in a fluid coupling.

 

[northernchris]

Yes! In the May diagram changes a 170 was booked to be stabled in Leeds Station overnight. However, they have been so thirsty for (primarily) oil, and also fuel, that this unit now has to go to Holbeck in the evening. After being topped up it is then supposed to return to Leeds. This additional move has not proven easy to administer, given the general uplift in units both at Holbeck and Leeds, plus the fact that most drivers at Leeds still don't sign them (i.e. the night driver at Holbeck is not guaranteed to sign 170s).

That explains why the 0700 Leeds-Knaresborough is late off depot most mornings then!

 

[superkev]

A few years ago SWTrains saw the light and swapped there 170's for lighter and presumably cheaper to run 158's.
K

 

[Domh245]

A few years ago SWTrains saw the light and swapped there 170's for lighter and presumably cheaper to run 158's.
K

I think the main factor in them going for 158s (and 159 conversions) was commonality with the 159s that they already had

 

[AmateurRambler]

Not sure this is correct. Currently at Leeds only drivers who sign Harrogate (two links, c. 80 driver's) do/will sign 170s. If they were also put on Nottingham services another link of 40 Leeds drivers plus some Sheffield drivers will need to learn them. If they are put on Leeds - Selby services all Leeds drivers will need to sign them.

Having thought about this a little more today it in fact could be said to be true that less training *overall* would be needed if 170s were put onto Leeds - York/Selby instead of Leeds - Nottingham.

This is because the current plan requires all Leeds drivers to learn 170s, so this will happen in any event. All York drivers will learn them also (as planned). So that would cover Yorks and Selbys. If 170s worked Nottinghams then Sheffield drivers would be required to learn them, which is additional to what is planned.

 

[AmateurRambler]

I've heard that 170's have Structure Gauging Issues on the Calder Valley line. When the structure gauging work was carried out, it was found there were clearance issues.

I wonder if Northern is still going to press on with trying to get the 170's on this route or will they just use them elsewhere instead ?

I can see the Leeds - Southport ending up with 158's. Getting 170's passed on the route will be too expensive, and I can't see 195's going on this service.

Which part of a 170 is out of gauge, and where? It could be just one tunnel. I live on the Calder Valley line and would like to see 170s but have to admit they would be better on Leeds - Nottingham or Leeds - Lincoln. However, both of these are Northern Connect routes, for which the plan is "90% new trains".

I understand that Dean Royd Tunnel (between Walsden and Summit Tunnel) is the main problem on this route.

Also of note that might affect 170s chances of going to Nottingham on the current route (via Barnsley) is that I believe there is a significant gauge-related speed restriction at one of the overbridges between Wombwell and Elsecar.

 

[geoffk]

I understand that Dean Royd Tunnel (between Walsden and Summit Tunnel) is the main problem on this route.
Also of note that might affect 170s chances of going to Nottingham on the current route (via Barnsley) is that I believe there is a significant gauge-related speed restriction at one of the overbridges between Wombwell and Elsecar.

Dean Royd Tunnel is mentioned elsewhere as a potential problem for the TPE Mark 5A stock, as Calder Valley is regularly used as a diversionary route. It's only 63m long and fairly straight so perhaps lowering the track would resolve the clearance problems, unless there are "unforeseen ground conditions". It's just up the road from me so I'll have a look at it tomorrow (not that looking at it from the footpath will tell me much).

 

[Kieran1990]

With the suggestion that Class 170’s will now be deployed
Harrogate loop- x8 with the full proposed 4 TPH is in place.
With the others now going onto Leeds-Selby/York
York-Hull
How many will this use up for the 16 Northern have/ will have day to day?

 

[superkev]

I don't think any of the 6 additional 170's have entered service yet.
With northern running 2 car pacers on the Calder valley on Fri they must be short I'm amazed there parked up although 2 are at crewe for decorating.
Presumably all they need is the blinds and GSM radio updating and northern stickers. Why is the railway industry not slick like the airline industry.
K

 

[Bungle965]

Has the 170 that failed and was stood outside Heaton made its way south yet?

Still at Heaton when I passed it today.
Sam

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Interestingly 170416 and 417 are currently up here in Scotland, in unbranded blue.

Next sets due south?

 

[jonesy3001]

Interestingly 170416 and 417 are currently up here in Scotland, in unbranded blue.

Next sets due south?

453-458 should be the next ones to transfer to northern.

 

[Domh245]

416 and 417 (as well as 18, 19, and 20) are all sub-leased from Southern. They were originally all going to go and become 171s for Southern but after their experience with 421-424 I think they've abandoned further conversions and will be leaving those ones with Scotrail (or whoever else wants them)

 

[LOL The Irony]

I seem to remember SWT tried one in a 158 with 10% fuel saving and faster acceleration.

IIRC that was deemed a failure and was reverted back to the original system.

 

[edwin_m]

IIRC that was deemed a failure and was reverted back to the original system.

I thought it was technically successful but the price of oil had fallen in the meantime so the fuel savings wouldn't pay for converting the rest of the fleet? The price of oil is of course now back up again...

 

[geoffk]

Dean Royd Tunnel is mentioned elsewhere as a potential problem for the TPE Mark 5A stock, as Calder Valley is regularly used as a diversionary route. It's only 63m long and fairly straight so perhaps lowering the track would resolve the clearance problems, unless there are "unforeseen ground conditions". It's just up the road from me so I'll have a look at it tomorrow (not that looking at it from the footpath will tell me much).

On the face of it, Dean Royd Tunnel could be opened up as it does not go through a hill (but a new road bridge would have to be built). Apart from the cost, the outcome could be an unstable cutting (maybe the reason for having a tunnel in the first place).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having thought about this a little more today it in fact could be said to be true that less training *overall* would be needed if 170s were put onto Leeds - York/Selby instead of Leeds - Nottingham.

This is because the current plan requires all Leeds drivers to learn 170s, so this will happen in any event. All York drivers will learn them also (as planned). So that would cover Yorks and Selbys. If 170s worked Nottinghams then Sheffield drivers would be required to learn them, which is additional to what is planned.

Things like this are where decision makers to do with Northern (whether it's ARN management or the DfT purse-string keepers) are getting it wrong.

Stock allocations shouldn't be dictated by a need to minimise training of staff. It should instead be dictated by the sort of work the various types of stock are suited to. If this requires staff training there should be spare funding and capacity to allow this.

 

[northernchris]

I don't think any of the 6 additional 170's have entered service yet.
With northern running 2 car pacers on the Calder valley on Fri they must be short I'm amazed there parked up although 2 are at crewe for decorating.
Presumably all they need is the blinds and GSM radio updating and northern stickers. Why is the railway industry not slick like the airline industry.
K

It could be related to available traincrew who sign the units

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In recent weeks I've noticed more Northern units than usual in the sidings at Huddersfield during the week.

 

[superkev]

It could be related to available traincrew who sign the units

Doesnt seem any obvious reason why the extra units are not in use on the Harrogate line as all the appropriate crews are trained I believe. Things seem so laid back. Next they may find the stored units down the line at Holbeck vandalised resulting in more delay.
K

 

[northernchris]

In that case it does seem rather odd. Even just one additional 170 in use each day would make a difference

 

[Adam0984]

One of the reasons for not deploying at least another 170 on the Harrogate is to keep traction knowledge up on the other units until a firm plan of what is going to be used where is made. At the moment particularly Harrogate depot still get booked work on all previous traction types across the various diagrams if they put a 170 on another Leeds to York via Harrogate then they might not be booked to work a 155 for example and if one turned up on a train booked a 150 then it would have to be cancelled or a last minute set swap

 

[superkev]

IIRC that was deemed a failure and was reverted back to the original system.

It wasn't a failure just uneconomic due to a combination of then falling oil prices (going up now) and the short period franchises with the uncertainty of future usage.
I seem to remember 2 of the 3 suitable gearboxes have been tried; the ?ratio ZF as on the 172's; and a multi ratio voith.
ZF also make an automated manual which has been tried in some buses.
K

 

[Bantamzen]

Has the 170 that failed and was stood outside Heaton made its way south yet?

Still at Heaton when I passed it today.
Sam

A 170 just passed through Leeds from Heaton, possibly this unit finally coming down?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O33499/2018/08/28/advanced

 

[mikemcniven]

170474 headed down to Crewe C.S. from Holbeck Sidings today for refurbishment, I captured it at Cheadle Hulme


Northern 170474 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

 

[noddingdonkey]

One of the reasons for not deploying at least another 170 on the Harrogate is to keep traction knowledge up on the other units until a firm plan of what is going to be used where is made. At the moment particularly Harrogate depot still get booked work on all previous traction types across the various diagrams if they put a 170 on another Leeds to York via Harrogate then they might not be booked to work a 155 for example and if one turned up on a train booked a 150 then it would have to be cancelled or a last minute set swap

In terms of maintaining traction competencies, what counts as working a class of unit? If a 170+155 combo was run with the 155 locked out of use, does that tick the box?

 

[Adam0984]

It’s got to be driven/conducted from the class in question and I believe there is a time that’s it’s got to be above to count it. Once the plan has been sorted then it may end up that certain classes are taken off traction cards but at this moment all options need to be open

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s got to be driven/conducted from the class in question and I believe there is a time that’s it’s got to be above to count it. Once the plan has been sorted then it may end up that certain classes are taken off traction cards but at this moment all options need to be open

And with 153s, got to be driven from both ends I believe!