Northern Class 170's

[Muttley]

...except you can't here the engines rev.

 

[whhistle]

16 x 3 car 170s from Scotrail which are supposed to arrive this year. They also supposed to introduce 18 x 2 car DMUs which are 170s or equivalents by 2022, those units haven't been confirmed.
Where there are question marks is over the 769s (bi-mode 319s) and whether Northern will get all the 150s they were supposed to from GWR.

Which begs the question of why didn't they just order more 195s to replace all their diesel trains and get rid of the swings and roundabouts.
Yes more cost but is it worth it considering the messing about with stock here there and everywhere?

The 170s have the combined power and brake control so on an incline the driver takes the brake off and then has to take power which can lead to a slight bit of roll back.

Interestingly the Class 22x trains don't have this problem as I believe when the driver selects "neutral", the engine will rev to stop the train rolling back. Might be wrong though.
Surprised this couldn't be retro-fitted to the 170 fleet.

 

[northwichcat]

Which begs the question of why didn't they just order more 195s to replace all their diesel trains and get rid of the swings and roundabouts.
Yes more cost but is it worth it considering the messing about with stock here there and everywhere?

The ITT was written in a way which suggested bidders should take on any 15xs and 17xs they could get hold of and only order new DMUs for the remainder. Remember this was before the Anglia franchise so Arriva possibly didn't have fancied their chances of winning with a bid that ignored the DfT's suggestion.

 

[lammergeier]

Interestingly the Class 22x trains don't have this problem as I believe when the driver selects "neutral", the engine will rev to stop the train rolling back. Might be wrong though.
Surprised this couldn't be retro-fitted to the 170 fleet.

This is not right. Can't speak for 222 but Voyager's have a hill start button and will roll back if not used on an incline. And the engines don't rev in neutral, they actually drop off slightly.

 

[whhistle]

This is not right. Can't speak for 222 but Voyager's have a hill start button and will roll back if not used on an incline. And the engines don't rev in neutral, they actually drop off slightly.

Hmm.
Happy to be corrected. Not sure where I read about the revving thing in neutral.

 

[johntea]

I must say I love the effort that ScotRail went to when decorating their tardis toilets! If they had some bagpipe music playing in the background it would be the complete Scottish experience

 

[Harpers Tate]

...Can't speak for 222 but Voyager's.....the engines don't rev in neutral, they actually drop off slightly.

Am I mistaken in believing these trains are diesel-electric, and if so, don't have "gears" (and hence no neutral) in the traditional sense; that the engine is always "in gear" driving a generator at whatever speed is demanded by the traction equipment, and idling when there is no demand just as in a DE locomotive?

 

[lammergeier]

Am I mistaken in believing these trains are diesel-electric, and if so, don't have "gears" (and hence no neutral) in the traditional sense; that the engine is always "in gear" driving a generator at whatever speed is demanded by the traction equipment, and idling when there is no demand just as in a DE locomotive?

Yes pretty much. I'm not sure exactly what happens either mechanically or electrically when you select neutral but you can't take power.

 

[js1000]

16 x 3 car 170s from Scotrail which are supposed to arrive this year. They also supposed to introduce 18 x 2 car DMUs which are 170s or equivalents by 2022, those units haven't been confirmed. I'm not aware of them not getting any 170s they are supposed to get even if some made by delayed by a few months. Scotrail was originally supposed to release 29 x 170s but the smaller number was known about before the Northern franchise was let. Where there are question marks is over the 769s (bi-mode 319s) and whether Northern will get all the 150s they were supposed to from GWR.

Aren't West Midlands Trains replacing their 23 170s with new-build Class 196 diesels by the end of 2021?

If so surely it's logical for Northern to take the surplus 170s to meet the franchise requirement?

 

[jonesy3001]

Aren't West Midlands Trains replacing their 23 170s with new-build Class 196 diesels by the end of 2021?

If so surely it's logical for Northern to take the surplus 170s to meet the franchise requirement?

Think the WMT 170s are going to wales and the remaining scotrail 170s are going to northern, i could be wrong.

 

[northwichcat]

Think the WMT 170s are going to wales and the remaining scotrail 170s are going to northern, i could be wrong.

No it's the Anglia 170s that are going to Wales & Borders. No future destination has been confirmed for the WMT 170s, which will be released a couple of years later.

 

[philthetube]

by that time Northern will probably need more stock to make up for all the suppressed demand arriving on their services.

 

[northernchris]

by that time Northern will probably need more stock to make up for all the suppressed demand arriving on their services.

I'm still not convinced there will be enough capacity once all new trains are in use, the 150s in particular seem like they are going to be spread very thinly!

 

[js1000]

No it's the Anglia 170s that are going to Wales & Borders. No future destination has been confirmed for the WMT 170s, which will be released a couple of years later.

by that time Northern will probably need more stock to make up for all the suppressed demand arriving on their services.

I'm still not convinced there will be enough capacity once all new trains are in use, the 150s in particular seem like they are going to be spread very thinly!

I'm glad I'm not the only who thinks Northern's new 195s & 331s and cascaded 170s are a double edged sword. Give them modern trains and they will come much like the new TransPennine trains 12 years ago changed the ball-game. It's a shame that those stuck in London at the DfT do not understand the problem that inhibits passenger growth in the North and puts many prospective passengers off - is the awful state of Northern's diesel rolling stock for the past 40 years. I do concede that not all 150s/156s will be gone until 2025 at the earliest and their fate will be decided when the franchise is next up for grabs in 2025/27.

 

[PomWombat]

170475 was behaving strangely tonight...

As power was engaged when pulling away from a station uphill, it would suddenly drop power, and cycle through the process again. Eventually, after maybe 5-6 cycles, the power would stick properly.

If I didn't know it was hydraulic, I'd describe it as dropping out of gear.

Anyone know what the likely cause could be?

 

[Adam0984]

It’s getting to leaf fall season so having problems with grip. Yesterday was a bad day because of the wind blowing leaves off the trees and the light rain made it a bit slippy and slidey and the sandite season hasn’t started yet. The train drops out and tries again to stop the wheels just spinning and not getting anywhere and damaging the wheel set.

 

[PomWombat]

Doh! An obvious explanation. Strange to not hear it though.

 

[WYSH]

Not sure if I’ve missed something but the 17:57 Leeds to Doncaster was formed of a 170 last night. I thought they were only operating on the Harrogate line?

 

[sprinterguy]

Not sure if I’ve missed something but the 17:57 Leeds to Doncaster was formed of a 170 last night. I thought they were only operating on the Harrogate line?

Neville Hill are experiencing a shortage of electric units at present, so there's been a 170 deputising on Leeds - Doncaster recently.

 

[rich-leeds]

Good news. That service has been prone to cancellation a fair bit in recent months. Also gives the chance for some 170s to stretch their legs a bit?

 

[superkev]

Good news. That service has been prone to cancellation a fair bit in recent months. Also gives the chance for some 170s to stretch their legs a bit?

Not so good for passengers though substituting 4 cars with 3. I wonder if there approved for the Aire valley which has suffered a few Pacers recently.
K

 

[deltic08]

Not sure if I’ve missed something but the 17:57 Leeds to Doncaster was formed of a 170 last night. I thought they were only operating on the Harrogate line?

Harrogate line is only allocated 3 170s out of the 9 sets needed to operate a service each day. Northern will have more than 3 sets now. 170s worked the 1411 and 1511 York-Harrogate yesterday but the 1311 was a 150/Pacer combo.

One may have been pinched for Doncasters yesterday because they are 100 mph units but they will only reach that speed downhill.

 

[WYSH]

Not so good for passengers though substituting 4 cars with 3.
K

Some would argue 3 is better than 0 given it being a frequently cancelled service. Even still the 170 is of far superior quality to the 321/322 id imagine

 

[Bornin1980s]

I know this might have already been discussed, but can a 170 directly replace a pacer?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Some would argue 3 is better than 0 given it being a frequently cancelled service. Even still the 170 is of far superior quality to the 321/322 id imagine

Besides, each carriage is approximately 3m longer, so you're actually only losing 11m of passenger space. Admittedly the seating is lower density though.

 

[rich-leeds]

Indeed - I was also going to make the point about the longer 23m vehicles on 170s vs the 20m vehicles on 321s & 322s - it's less of reduction than it seems - and much better than 4-cars of pacer, which judging on number of cars alone would be like-for like replacement.

The 170s appear to be proving surprisingly capable of swallowing the crowds on the Harrogate line peaks. Whilst the seating is low density, it also means they have reasonably wide aisles. Also the 1/3 and 2/3 doors (compared to Northern's other 23m vehicle length diesel stock - 153 / 155 / 156 / 158) helps spread standees in the decent amount of available space more effectively.

In some respects (gearing aside) they're ideal for routes like the Harrogate Line - nice to travel in during the off-peak, but effective at shifting crowds in the peaks. Hopefully the 195s will turn out similar - subject to matching the comfort levels, the fundamentals are similar.

The 1757 to Donny was a Class 170 again this evening, I expect this might be a regular feature until the West Yorkshire EMU situation improves, and is much better than the regular cancellations or rag-bag of 2-car DMUs that have otherwise occasionally been appearing on it of late.

 

[PomWombat]

I know this might have already been discussed, but can a 170 directly replace a pacer?

No.

The 170 unfortunately cannot bring the same levels of discomfort, lack of legroom, noise and squeal that a pacer offers without effort.

Just witness platform 2 in Leeds as of 1725 each weekday. There are crowds clamouring to get on board the 1729 pacer (often 2 carriages) to York, while only a few hardy souls choose to wait for the arctic temperatures that come with the devilish air con on the 170 that follows it up the same line 10 minutes later. Who wants a seat to Horsforth, anyway?

In truth, the 170 is badly geared for some routes, and probably does better on semi-express duty than on stoppers. It won't fit on some routes either. But from this passenger's experience... give me the 170 over the pacer. And, frankly, over the 150 either.

 

[PomWombat]

The 170s appear to be proving surprisingly capable of swallowing the crowds on the Harrogate line peaks. Whilst the seating is low density, it also means they have reasonably wide aisles. Also the 1/3 and 2/3 doors (compared to Northern's other 23m vehicle length diesel stock - 153 / 155 / 156 / 158) helps spread standees in the decent amount of available space more effectively.

In some respects (gearing aside) they're ideal for routes like the Harrogate Line - nice to travel in during the off-peak, but effective at shifting crowds in the peaks. Hopefully the 195s will turn out similar - subject to matching the comfort levels, the fundamentals are similar.

You're right about this aspect. It always seems hard to get people standing to really shift down the aisle, but it does seem to happen a bit more naturally on the 170 than on the pacers. And to get people loaded that bit faster too.

It definitely has the ability to deal with the peak volumes, provided services are running roughly to schedule. A 10 minute delay, though, is enough to add overload volumes in the morning ... which normally causes additional delays for pacers at each stop. But it feels like that happens less with the 170.

 

[Bornin1980s]

No.

The 170 unfortunately cannot bring the same levels of discomfort, lack of legroom, noise and squeal that a pacer offers without effort.

Just witness platform 2 in Leeds as of 1725 each weekday. There are crowds clamouring to get on board the 1729 pacer (often 2 carriages) to York, while only a few hardy souls choose to wait for the arctic temperatures that come with the devilish air con on the 170 that follows it up the same line 10 minutes later. Who wants a seat to Horsforth, anyway?

In truth, the 170 is badly geared for some routes, and probably does better on semi-express duty than on stoppers. It won't fit on some routes either. But from this passenger's experience... give me the 170 over the pacer. And, frankly, over the 150 either.

Might regeared or hybrid drives make the 170s more suitable for stoppers?

 

[PomWombat]

Harrogate line is only allocated 3 170s out of the 9 sets needed to operate a service each day. Northern will have more than 3 sets now. 170s worked the 1411 and 1511 York-Harrogate yesterday but the 1311 was a 150/Pacer combo..

Over the summer, there were indeed 3 170s allocated. They made up 3 of the 5 diagrams that ran through peak and off-peak (being both of the Knaresborough diagrams and one of the 3 York diagrams in off-peak). Now we seem to get 4-5 on the route, covering 4 day-long diagrams, and 1 peak-only diagram.