Northern Class 170's

[Neptune]

170474 parked in the compound at Holbeck at the moment. Another is parked at the back of Holbeck and it looked like it could be 170461.

Looks like the 170’s are moving onto the York - Hull and Leeds - Selby shuttles from December. Less crew to train up than putting them on Nottingham’s.

 

[geoffk]

170474 parked in the compound at Holbeck at the moment. Another is parked at the back of Holbeck and it looked like it could be 170461.

Looks like the 170’s are moving onto the York - Hull and Leeds - Selby shuttles from December. Less crew to train up than putting them on Nottingham’s.

Leeds - Southport looking less likely. Leeds - Selby is currently a through service from Man Vic and I thought nothing much was changing in December.

 

[175001]

Means traction training on West depots then. 158s via Wallgate hopefully

 

[greyman42]

Has the 170 that failed and was stood outside Heaton made its way south yet?

 

[northernchris]

Leeds - Southport looking less likely. Leeds - Selby is currently a through service from Man Vic and I thought nothing much was changing in December.

I understood it to be minor changes could be made but nothing significant. Leeds-Selby could easily be split off the Leeds-Manchester section without anything having to be retimed as trains typically arrive Leeds from Manchester around xx50 so these could in theory pick up the xx07 Huddersfield departure, so long as the Manchester-York is also split at Leeds

 

[Bertie the bus]

Looks like the 170’s are moving onto the York - Hull and Leeds - Selby shuttles from December. Less crew to train up than putting them on Nottingham’s.

That’s what really matters. Not which routes would benefit most from 3-car air conditioned units, but what is easiest for Northern.

 

[northernchris]

That’s what really matters. Not which routes would benefit most from 3-car air conditioned units, but what is easiest for Northern.

What routes would you suggest are ideal for 170s?

 

[superkev]

What routes would you suggest are ideal for 170s?

As the 170's are over 40 tons there a bit slow off the mark so with little of Northerns slow dmu routes needing there more than 80mph perhaps regearing them from 100mph max to say 80mph would both improve acceleration and also let them get out of 1st gear currently 65mph. Then ideal for the Harrogate line (line speed max 65) and if tunnel clearance issues resolved the Calder Valley lines (max 80)
K

 

[Bungle965]

As the 170's are over 40 tons there a bit slow off the mark so with little of Northerns slow dmu routes needing there more than 80mph perhaps regearing them from 100mph max to say 80mph would both improve acceleration and also let them get out of 1st gear currently 65mph. Then ideal for the Harrogate line (line speed max 65) and if tunnel clearance issues resolved the Calder Valley lines (max 80)
K

The maximum line speed is 90 on the Calder Valley.
Sam

 

[superkev]

The maximum line speed is 90 on the Calder Valley.
Sam

Nothing so fast i believe on the actual river Calder Valley side of the hill
K

 

[Phlip]

2 Hull - York services per day, 1 in each direction, are currently interworked with Harrogate line services. If the Harrogate line is intended to be all 170, these diagrams will probably be 170 too.

 

[Bantamzen]

That’s what really matters. Not which routes would benefit most from 3-car air conditioned units, but what is easiest for Northern.

So which parts of the North of England are so much more in need of air conditioned trains?

 

[xotGD]

So which parts of the North of England are so much more in need of air conditioned trains?

Pontefract Line:

First, you go past the waste recycling facility next to the Freightliner depot.

Then you go past the sewage treatment works just after Woodlesford

Finally you go past some industrial facility in Cas that stinks of organic chemicals.

AC to keep all of that stench out is very welcome when the occasional 158 rocks up.

 

[scrapy]

I can see the Leeds - Southport ending up with 158's. Getting 170's passed on the route will be too expensive, and I can't see 195's going on this service.

158s cannot be used through Wigan Wallgate.

 

[superkev]

So which parts of the North of England are so much more in need of air conditioned trains?

Thinking of the recent heat wave and almost all cars have it all trains should have working air con. Pity northerns seem to give up when the sun shines.
K

 

[a_c_skinner]

158s cannot be used through Wigan Wallgate

Why? Is it a matter that they've not been cleared or cannot be cleared?

 

[northernchris]

As the 170's are over 40 tons there a bit slow off the mark so with little of Northerns slow dmu routes needing there more than 80mph perhaps regearing them from 100mph max to say 80mph would both improve acceleration and also let them get out of 1st gear currently 65mph. Then ideal for the Harrogate line (line speed max 65) and if tunnel clearance issues resolved the Calder Valley lines (max 80)
K

Does keeping them in first gear cause much harm though? 170 failures seem rare and they are able to keep to time on Harrogate line services

 

[Geeves]

158s cannot be used through Wigan Wallgate.

I am at work so cannot put the photo here but it is of 158909 in 2005 at Southport so clearly they weren't banned then, I don't know if they are now or if you can add 158s being banned to Southport as an old wives tale.

 

[Eccles1983]

158s cannot be used through Wigan Wallgate.

Wrong.

153's cannot. 158's can and have done.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Does keeping them in first gear cause much harm though? 170 failures seem rare and they are able to keep to time on Harrogate line services

No, it just means they use fuel and oil faster than a super car...

 

[Class 170101]

Class 170s aren't great on hilly routes they do struggle on the Highland Mainline and therefore doubtless struggle over the Pennines. They are allowede to use the Sprinter speeds on the route which covers up for the slower acceleration when compared against Class 185s (non-sprinters). The Hull Route is used due Sprinter differentials.

I would have throught Class 170s would be best utilised between Nottingham and Leeds but also between Carlisle and Newcastle. Of course some 156s would have to remain due to interworking with Scotrail via Dumfries.

 

[northernchris]

No, it just means they use fuel and oil faster than a super car...

Well I assume Northern were aware of this when they chose to put them on the Harrogate line

 

[tbtc]

I take the point about them being more suited to routes here they can stretch their legs a bit, but ScotRail (under various guises) have been using them on routes like the Fife Circle/ Anniesland for a number of years (they've run some stop-start services for London Midland etc too), so it's not insurmountable.

I'm not saying they are ideal but if they can cope with a stop every couple of miles (like on the Fife Circle) then it's just a case of whether they can match the timings optimised for Pacers/ Sprinters in Northern-Land. At least putting them on the Harrogate line would allow them to foul the current timetable without disrupting many other services. The parallel bus route (36) is certainly up-market enough for Harrogate passengers, so they are probably due an upgraded train service.

 

[Philip]

158s cannot be used through Wigan Wallgate.

They were used on Southport (and Liverpool) to Man Airport Saturday services during the summer 2005 timetable.

 

[superkev]

No, it just means they use fuel and oil faster than a super car...

Perhaps if the 170's are staying a while it would be economic to fit the ZF mechanical box (6 gears is it?) As fitted to the 172's and 195's. I seem to remember SWT tried one in a 158 with 10% fuel saving and faster acceleration.
K

 

[73001]

I am at work so cannot put the photo here but it is of 158909 in 2005 at Southport so clearly they weren't banned then, I don't know if they are now or if you can add 158s being banned to Southport as an old wives tale.

They operated to Southport via the Bootle branch for a golf special at some point in the past although it may have only been a one off... as other posters have said though they also appear to have been timetabled for a while so it may have been that in the photo.

 

[175001]

158s cannot be used through Wigan Wallgate.

Yes they can. They are route cleared through Wallgate. But Wigan crews don't sign them yet

 

[AmateurRambler]

Looks like the 170’s are moving onto the York - Hull and Leeds - Selby shuttles from December. Less crew to train up than putting them on Nottingham’s.

Not sure this is correct. Currently at Leeds only drivers who sign Harrogate (two links, c. 80 driver's) do/will sign 170s. If they were also put on Nottingham services another link of 40 Leeds drivers plus some Sheffield drivers will need to learn them. If they are put on Leeds - Selby services all Leeds drivers will need to sign them.

 

[AmateurRambler]

Does keeping them in first gear cause much harm though? 170 failures seem rare and they are able to keep to time on Harrogate line services

Yes! In the May diagram changes a 170 was booked to be stabled in Leeds Station overnight. However, they have been so thirsty for (primarily) oil, and also fuel, that this unit now has to go to Holbeck in the evening. After being topped up it is then supposed to return to Leeds. This additional move has not proven easy to administer, given the general uplift in units both at Holbeck and Leeds, plus the fact that most drivers at Leeds still don't sign them (i.e. the night driver at Holbeck is not guaranteed to sign 170s).

 

[Adam0984]

Northern are in a bit of a puzzle as to where the 170s can actually go without infrastructure changes, the large cost of crew training particularly drivers who need a few days where as guards get half a day.