No London Midland services this Sunday

[PhilipW]

45,000 users on a Sunday, apparently. How many of them are season ticket holders enjoying free travel, as against people actually buying a ticket?

It's not "free" travel. They have paid to be able to travel on a Sunday (or any other day that they choose).

 

[jon0844]

You're being rather pedantic now aren't you?!

I pay for an annual ticket, so I may travel on a Saturday or Sunday because I've 'paid' for it - but it's nearly always for leisure and if the trains didn't run, I'll simply stay home.

But the people who actually buy a ticket ON THE DAY are giving the TOC extra revenue that will be lost if they don't travel.

I just lose the use of the train service, which is something I've become used to with weekend engineering work.

 

[mumrar]

Some info on the incorrect information that the traincrew have now reverted to time and two thirds. That is a quote from Bob Crow, nice to know he checks the facts! I find it amusing that the media all blamed the drivers even though they mostly interviewed Bob Crow. To be fair, if drivers had come in, LM would have adopted the countrywide conductor replacement scheme of using anything between management and strategically shaved primates (the differences are not too great) to get a service running regardless of safety. Anyway, we need to wind up this discussion to give people, particularly those who call staff entitled to their day off 'scum', the opportunity to complain that Xmas day and boxing day will have no services. The cheek of it!

 

[PhilipW]

You're being rather pedantic now aren't you?!.

A little perhaps, but only a little.

If I bought a 7-day season ticket and was then told I could only use it for 6 days, I would expect it to be extended by a day to compensate, at least. That seems entirely fair to me.

To be told "Ah, you probably would not have used it on Day 7 anyway, so it's OK if we cancel the trains", I don't buy that argument.

 

[Metroland]

London Midland bosses have said an agreement to increase pay for staff who work on Sundays will be reintroduced to keep trains running at the weekend.

All but one of the company's services had to be cancelled on Sunday after not enough staff volunteered to work.

An agreement to increase overtime pay on Sundays from time-and-a-half to double pay ended on 30 August.

The firm has told union officials it will extend that agreement, but it is not clear how long for.

London Midland bosses met with union officials on Tuesday to try to prevent a repeat of Sunday's problems.

The company, which runs more than 1,200 services a day to 149 stations across England, had to cancel all but its Birmingham to Liverpool service.

It was criticised after it said that staff worked on a voluntary basis on Sundays and it had not been able to find enough volunteers.

The train firm operates services through London, Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire, Northamptonshire, Warwickshire, Staffordshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, the West Midlands, Shropshire, Cheshire and Merseyside.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8245104.stm

 

[Mojo]

That's funny. They told their station staff they have no money left.

 

[ukrob]

45,000 users on a Sunday, apparently. How many of them are season ticket holders enjoying free travel, as against people actually buying a ticket?

'Free travel'??

If you pay for a one day ticket you pay for one days travel. If you have a seven day ticket you have paid for seven days consecutive travel. Who is anyone to dictate which days it should and shouldn't be used on?

It is paid for, end of.

 

[mumrar]

Why can't the media get basic facts right. I know you're only quoting Metroland, but until this new agreement, right or wrong, the original pay was only ever single time.

 

[jon0844]

To be told "Ah, you probably would not have used it on Day 7 anyway, so it's OK if we cancel the trains", I don't buy that argument.

Okay, I see your argument there (and I totally agree) but my point was the lost revenue from not selling tickets on that day. You've already paid and they got their money anyway.

I think we're thinking along the same lines though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's funny. They told their station staff they have no money left.

As I said, how many of those 45,000 Sunday passengers are buying tickets - and how much of that revenue is given to LM (as against shared out to other operators on the route). They presumably have to pay for buses too, so I guess the drivers won at the end of the day.

Now Bob Crow can tell the other drivers how to use the same strategy... which is why this Sunday working needs to be sorted out once and for all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

'Free travel'??

If you pay for a one day ticket you pay for one days travel. If you have a seven day ticket you have paid for seven days consecutive travel. Who is anyone to dictate which days it should and shouldn't be used on?

It is paid for, end of.

You're missing my point!! When no trains are running, most people won't travel (who wants to go on a bus?) and so a ticket won't be sold.

The poor sod with their season can travel (and take a bus) but the TOC got your money anyway - so they're laughing.

That was my point, not that season ticket holders enjoy free travel (although technically they do, such that I get 2 months free on my annual season - as well as many other benefits).

 

[upyourjunction]

why should a driver, just for coming in on a Sunday get paid the same as what I'd get paid for working ALL WEEK; and I have to work Sundays. LM station staff I know have said the same thing and are rightly up in arms about it. Traincrew are finding support amongst their own colleagues is falling incredibly fast.

QUOTE]

Why? Because its the rate for the job, the responsiblilty of having 1000's lives in your hands! An air hostess dosen't earn anyware near what the Pilot does! So Instead of being jealous & bleating about the differential in money why don't you do something about it & apply for a Drivers job, unless you have already tried & failed, which would explain your bitterness!

 

[Mojo]

Why? Because its the rate for the job, the responsiblilty of having 1000's lives in your hands! An air hostess dosen't earn anyware near what the Pilot does! So Instead of being jealous & bleating about the differential in money why don't you do something about it & apply for a Drivers job, unless you have already tried & failed, which would explain your bitterness!

The basic salary is the rate for the job which will always be higher (I'm not disputing that) but why should drivers be offered extra incentives on top of their already high salary when station staff are being told that there is no money left for a pay increase or any extra pay for working Sundays?

And please don't make assumptions about me. In no way am I jealous - I'm perfectly happy with the job I do (not for LM) and also what I do outside work.

 

[Metroland]

Well like Mojo, I'm not sure I buy the argument about the extra top ups either, seems like an organised cartel. There's lots of responsible jobs on the railway, like Pway and S&T, and more responsible jobs than drivers like signallers who have to deal with up to 20 trains at once (try that in failure conditions with no interlocking) and have a much bigger effect on performance than drivers, but nearly all get paid less.

Station staff is no breeze either, that's a safety critical post, not to mention all the crap they have to put up with from the public.

 

[jon0844]

It seems that the drivers all got together and agreed not to volunteer, to try and force the TOC to reintroduce the extra money.

The TOC has now done so.

In a way, the drivers have blackmailed the TOC and get away with it because there's no requirement to volunteer - except it was obvious that in the past, most people DID volunteer.

I suppose drivers will consider this a success, others will be outraged - and life goes on...

I would say that while management may always be seen as the evil ones, you do wonder why some managers try and find new ways to punish staff - and wonder if there may just be a small element of justification? What comes around and all that!

 

[Metroland]

In truth the driving grade always has been a legalised racket. While its not as easy as it often gets made out it is one of the best paid jobs on the railway for what they do, and most of their wage gains are gotten through asserting their power through their union. Because they have specific route/traction knowledge because of the current way the railway is operated, they can virtually name their price. If the railways were truly open access, like the roads or the airports - we'll have to wait for a better signalling system for that - and stock was much more standardised they could be sacked and wouldn't get away with it. But management have always Kowtowed to them, because of the power they wield through ASLEF and at times it makes the railway very uncompetitive with very restrictive and expensive working practices. They are just one part of the railway, but you wouldn't believe it the way some of them go on.

I'm sure this will offend quite a few of them, but its what everyone else on the railways thinks.

 

[fgwrich]

In truth the driving grade always has been a legalised racket. While its not as easy as it often gets made out it is one of the best paid jobs on the railway for what they do, and most of their wage gains are gotten through asserting their power through their union. Because they have specific route/traction knowledge because of the current way the railway is operated, they can virtually name their price. If the railways were truly open access, like the roads or the airports - we'll have to wait for a better signalling system for that - and stock was much more standardised they could be sacked and wouldn't get away with it. But management have always Kowtowed to them, because of the power they wield through ASLEF and at times it makes the railway very uncompetitive with very restrictive and expensive working practices. They are just one part of the railway, but you wouldn't believe it the way some of them go on.

I'm sure this will offend quite a few of them, but its what everyone else on the railways thinks.

agreed with both this post and your other post...ive got a freind who works at paddington and she has to put up with quite abit of sh*t from passengers quite alot!

 

[Greenback]

It seems that the drivers all got together and agreed not to volunteer, to try and force the TOC to reintroduce the extra money.

The TOC has now done so.

In a way, the drivers have blackmailed the TOC and get away with it because there's no requirement to volunteer - except it was obvious that in the past, most people DID volunteer.

I suppose drivers will consider this a success, others will be outraged - and life goes on...

I would say that while management may always be seen as the evil ones, you do wonder why some managers try and find new ways to punish staff - and wonder if there may just be a small element of justification? What comes around and all that!

There must have been difficulty in getting traincrew to volunteer or the additional payment would not have been introduced in the first place!

Sunday work is additional to the res tof the week, I think it is reasonable toe xpect enhanced pay rates for any and all overtime worked - hours that are ine xcess of contracted hours after all.

Management are not always seen as evil - the media usually portrays those on strike as disruptive, see coverage of the miners strike 1984-1985and just about every other industrial dispute!

 

[Pumbaa]

Oh for eff's sake; instead of LM just giving in, and agreeing to continue the deal which will cause chaos when it ends, as it can't go on indefinitely - sit around a damn table and sort it out. LM management are ridiculously hopeless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although mind you they don't deserve to have the franchise stripped; they've done a good job down here on the WCML for the last year, and the improvement programme of station works are coming on nicely.

 

[Daimler]

Oh for eff's sake; instead of LM just giving in, and agreeing to continue the deal which will cause chaos when it ends, as it can't go on indefinitely - sit around a damn table and sort it out. LM management are ridiculously hopeless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although mind you they don't deserve to have the franchise stripped; they've done a good job down here on the WCML for the last year, and the improvement programme of station works are coming on nicely.

That's the thing, while the company's management seem to be complely incompetent, as a whole they've done some good down here recently - things have improved a lot!

 

[GB]

and more responsible jobs than drivers like signallers

What qualifies you to judge what is or who is more responsable?

While its not as easy as it often gets made out it is one of the best paid jobs on the railway for what they do

Please explian

 

[Metroland]

Probably many years senior operating experience and I make driver simulations for a living, for starters. Don't ever assume people don't know what they are talking about.

 

[GB]

Signallers having to deal with more than one train does not automatically give them any more responsibility than a driver being in control off one train.

Do you drive trains in a professional capicity?

 

[Metroland]

And how would you know, what's your expertise exactly?

 

[GB]

I was in the signalling grade for 6 years and I now work for one of the major FOCs.

 

[Metroland]

Where? And don't BS, I'll be asking questions. We'll find out what you do know.

 

[Mojo]

Isn't this getting a bit confrontational here? Might be best to continue this discussion by PM or profile messages please

 

[GB]

Im not about to post up my CV for you to pick over. I know what Im talking about and couldn't care less if you believe me or not.

However my original point still stands...

Signallers having to deal with more than one train does not automatically give them any more responsibility than a driver being in control off one train.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't this getting a bit confrontational here? Might be best to continue this discussion by PM or profile messages please

Yes I think you are correct, apologies for getting a bit personal but it just irrates me when drivers are seen to have it easy...here or anywhere else.

 

[Metroland]

I disagree, though to a certain extent it depends on the post. I think your bluffing personally. Clearly at a busy location where there is say 500-1000 trains per shift, and when clearing signals it must be safe for trains to proceed, a signaller has in my opinion a greater responsibly than a driver on safety and performance. But as we've seen from accidents at Clapham, Potter's bar, Hatfield etc, other staff also have huge responsibility.

it just irrates me when drivers are seen to have it easy...here or anywhere else.

Nobody ever said that, in fact I said myself 'It's not as easy as some make it out to be', and I'm not saying they don't deserve what they get, merely they have to act professionally and be a little be sensitive to others in this economic climate. You didn't have to post up your CV, but it would have been helpful to discuss some of the finer points of operating rather than picking a fight with me.

 

[upyourjunction]

Probably many years senior operating experience and I make driver simulations for a living, for starters. Don't ever assume people don't know what they are talking about.

So you make Driver Sims as a living and you think that makes you an expert on our job does it? Well I hope you didn't make ours because quite frankly its pants & nothing like the real thing! You play may trains mate...we do it for real!
As for you thinking that a signallers job has "more" responsibility it shows your "many years senior operating experience" learnt you nothing, We work closely with Signallers & have a mutual respect for each other thus relying on each other to do our jobs safely we each have equal resonsibility! But where as in a modern Signal box its near impossilbe to make a mistake, the Driver has no such luxury!
As for your comments that we are a "legalised racket using our power for huge wage gains" this tells me you have no understanding of the process that got us from 11k 15 years ago to where we are now!
You say we have "very restrictive and expensive working practices" this comment just shows your ignorance! but because we were willing to change & sell our conditions of service that we are on a good wedge now, which is just what the likes of you are are so jealous of!

 

[Metroland]

So you make Driver Sims as a living and you think that makes you an expert on our job does it? Well I hope you didn't make ours because quite frankly its pants & nothing like the real thing! You play may trains mate...we do it for real!
As for you thinking that a signallers job has "more" responsibility it shows your "many years senior operating experience" learnt you nothing, We work closely with Signallers & have a mutual respect for each other thus relying on each other to do our jobs safely we each have equal resonsibility! But where as in a modern Signal box its near impossilbe to make a mistake, the Driver has no such luxury!
As for your comments that we are a "legalised racket using our power for huge wage gains" this tells me you have no understanding of the process that got us from 11k 15 years ago to where we are now!
You say we have "very restrictive and expensive working practices" this comment just shows your ignorance! but because we were willing to change & sell our conditions of service that we are on a good wedge now, which is just what the likes of you are are so jealous of!

For a start I'm not jealous, not in the least.

I can assure you its extremely easy to make mistake in modern signalboxes, and it clearly you have no clue as to that job. Very easy to run people over, very easy to send trains over broken rails, or pass signals at danger and send them on collision paths, there is no interlocking during failure or single line working, or during barrier local control or even during normal working with some crossings, very easy to send trains into engineering possessions and so on and so forth. And day to day performance depends far more on signalling staff compared to drivers. So as for working closely, you clearly don't.

You have no idea of my background, so please keep your insulting suggestions to yourself. And get used to criticism, with all the tax payers money going into the system and advertised services that don't get run, people have every right to question what people get paid.

I'm actually going to make an effort to find out the identities of some of the people on this forum and any more crap I'm going to send it to some newspapers and your managers (that's if you really do the job you say) so watch out.

 

[whoosh]

Signallers are on pretty decent money themselves. Especially in the busier 'boxes. Signaller's pay 2009.

As I explained on another thread, and other people continue to explain - it is cheaper for a TOC to run the Sunday service on overtime. To include it in the working week would mean employing more traincrew, not just for the jobs on Sundays, but there would then need to be spare cover for sickness, and annual leave - there is minimal or none on Sundays at the moment (certainly where I work). If it was one in three Sundays they work now, you'd need about 10% more staff.
Sick pay and annual leave would need to be paid on Sundays, more staff = more NI contributions, more pension payments (overtime isn't pensionable), and they would need to increase the basic too to make the staff have Sunday in the working week, and no longer have a choice about working them.

Companies like GNER chose to properly resource their company and negotiated Sundays in the working week with their traincrews.

Others choose not to. It's cheaper (more profitable) to leave things as they are, or even to pay double time for Sundays. It works well most of the time, except when the employer causes unrest and no-one wants to volunteer to work overtime for them. Then it's easy for the company to blame the workforce! (Without drawing attention to the fact that they run a seven day service with only enough staff to run a six day service and coin in the savings.)







By the way Metroland, the drivers at my company (EMT) have just voted to accept a 2.5% rise this year (with changes to terms and conditions) - due in January by the way when there was still inflation, not April when most peoples raises are due.
Notice that's less than the 3% (or "nearly 6%" in Tim Shoveller's words) we wouldn't accept and threatened to go on strike over.
Proof that it was about pay AND conditions. I'd like you to apologise for calling us "greedy", and "holding the company to ransom" please.