No London Midland services this Sunday

[jon0844]

Did they end the 'temporary' agreement early, or do people in the industry need to have the definition of 'temporary' explained to them?

If I get offered a one-off lump sum to help someone out as a favour (as I did recently, when covering an event for another publication), do I then refuse to do anything ever again unless I get the same goodwill payment?

Is the pay LM is now offering the same as before the temporary agreement or less? If people volunteered before, but won't now, I'd like to know why.

Things like this will, in the long run, stop anyone ever doing anything of benefit for staff (railway industry or anywhere else) unless forced to do so.

 

[EM2]

Do employees of airlines, hotels, public services etc receive extra pay for working Sundays?

Depends on their terms and conditions

 

[GB]

Did they end the 'temporary' agreement early, or do people in the industry need to have the definition of 'temporary' explained to them?

If I get offered a one-off lump sum to help someone out as a favour (as I did recently, when covering an event for another publication), do I then refuse to do anything ever again unless I get the same goodwill payment?

Is the pay LM is now offering the same as before the temporary agreement or less? If people volunteered before, but won't now, I'd like to know why.

Things like this will, in the long run, stop anyone ever doing anything of benefit for staff (railway industry or anywhere else) unless forced to do so.

So its should be temproary on one side but not the other?:roll: Are you management by any chance?

From what I can gather, it wasnt a lump sum as you put it, it was an enchanced rate of pay...there is a difference.

 

[ivanhoe]

LM offered an inhanced pay to drivers as a temproary measure to get Sundays covered. While this was in place everyone was a winner. LM got jobs covered, drivers were compensated for giving up thier valuable free time and passengers obviously got the service they were expecting.

Now LM have recinded this agreement what did they expext to happen? Of course staff are not going to volunteer for doing the same job for less money and why should they!...would you???

What really bugs me about this issue as well as similar action by EMT staff recently, is this is an easy way to take 'Action' without flouting any rules and the only losers are as usual ,the Passengers. Public Finances dictate in the next three to four years that the only areas that will be funded at the current rate will be Health and Education(excluding Higher Education). This means that there will be cuts in real terms . You may ask what's this got to do with the privatised railways ? There is still shed loads of taxpayers monies going into the railways and this will be cut for sure, with the possible exception of large capital projects. That will inevitably mean less trains and job cuts. LM and the railway unions should stop blaming each other, sort out this antiquated working practice of seeing Sunday as being voluntary and get on with the job of running a 7 day railway. I dont know who is the real villain here, but Passengers who could not travel from Nuneaton to Rugeley , Lichfield etc,today will see that staff did not turn up for work ! Good PR chaps !

 

[GB]

I do agree with you there Ivan

 

[Mojo]

Sorry but no sympathy here - traincrew are already on very favourable terms and conditions to many other staff out there, even within their own company or industry. I'm not station staff for LM but why should a driver, just for coming in on a Sunday get paid the same as what I'd get paid for working ALL WEEK; and I have to work Sundays. LM station staff I know have said the same thing and are rightly up in arms about it. Traincrew are finding support amongst their own colleagues is falling incredibly fast.

Station staff will always get paid less than drivers and I'm not disputing that fact but the action taken by them as they know mass disruption will be caused without them is seriously unacceptable.

 

[jon0844]

So its should be temproary on one side but not the other?:roll: Are you management by any chance?

I don't even work in the rail industry, but I don't need to in order to ask a simple, as yet unanswered, question.

Say my boss asks me to come in over Christmas. I can say yes or no. Then he offers me an extra £50 for a particular day - and I say yes.

Do I now demand that extra £50 every other time I'm asked to come in - as he could afford it that time?

Won't he simply not offer any money at all and seek to find an alternative way to get me to come in?

I am NOT against extra money. I find it surprising that LM is only offering standard pay - but I still asked the following questions;

1) Is the money less now than it was before the special summer pay increase?
2) Were people volunteering before for standard pay, and if so, why did they all suddenly refuse to volunteer.

At no point have I said anyone needed to volunteer, and so the drivers are not at fault for wanting the day off, but I do have my suspicions that this was an organised plot to try and force LM to re-introduce the pay offer as a permanent fixture. It may well work, so I guess some will consider it a success - except the 45,000 odd passengers inconvenienced.*

And if they did, then what happens NEXT summer? Will LM need to offer more money for the summer break when people want to go on holiday? If they then end this, does the same thing happen again?


* I wonder how many will have seen it as a good thing for allowing them on to a Virgin Trains service for no extra money?!

 

[Metroland]

but I do have my suspicions that this was an organised plot to try and force LM to re-introduce the pay offer as a permanent fixture. It may well work, so I guess some will consider it a success - except the 45,000 odd passengers inconvenienced.*
!

Of course it ****ing is. And you can tell how inept the management are for not seeing it coming.

 

[Bill EWS]

When Sunday isn't in the working week it is totally voluntary. Noone should be forced or threatened to work their free time or days off. In the present system drivers have worked sundays fairly well but it now looks as if management want then to work virtually every sunday for less money than they can earn at present, which is not on. If you agree with that then you are a fool and shouldn't be let anywhere near management of a workforce of any kind.

It is up to this management to offer a deal that will satisfy their staff, not the staff to do the management's work for them, that's what they get paid to do.

In BR days all overtime was volutary, except when you got caught out in delays while en route and couldn't get out of it. In such cases where management could find someone else to cover the work it was carried out. Staff accepted this and worked together more easily. In the case of other overtime or extra work due to sickness, delays etc most staff were happy to stay on or come in on their days off to help out. That is not the same as being forced to be there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Everyone needs a reasonable rest period to stay well, and safe. Much of the problems I see today seem to stem from the fact that everything is run on a shoestring and appear to be already working flat out and in near Emergency conditions. When a real emergency crops up they have nothing more to give and everyone runs around like headless chickens, blaming everyone else. Present day management appear to get what they deserve.

 

[ungreat]

Of course it ****ing is. And you can tell how inept the management are for not seeing it coming.

At the end of the day Metroland,if your contract does not include sunday as a working day,then that's it,no work if you don't want.

I am sick and tired of the same old **** peddled out every time this happens.The staff are not breaking any rules,and if London Midland cant be arsed to honour agreements,then they should expect no cooperation.

By the way,I won't be in sunday or Christmas frigging day(just placed that there for the inevitable Christmas day hissy fit by someone who soooo needs to travel Christmas Day for some reason,although most sensible ones travel the day before) either...ever.Period.End of.Unless I want to.They are my conditions,and I will keep them thank you.

When I am booked to work I will.All day if neccessary.But when I'm not,you won't see me for dust,like the LM guys today!

 

[Metroland]

Pathetic.

 

[O L Leigh]

Incisive comment as always.

We had precisely the same discussions three months ago when it was EMT drivers taking a Sunday out. Can't you just link back to that particular thread rather than creating what will effectively be a carbon-copy?

O L Leigh

 

[mumrar]

Say my boss asks me to come in over Christmas. I can say yes or no. Then he offers me an extra £50 for a particular day - and I say yes.
Do I now demand that extra £50 every other time I'm asked to come in - as he could afford it that time?

The true comparison would be would you be willing to work the next Xmas for no extra pay, having had £50 for the previous one?

1) Is the money less now than it was before the special summer pay increase?

The money now is the same as before the temporary incentive(basic hourly rate, not time and two thirds as mentioned by some printed media.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For some season my phone wouldn't send all my answers in one go.

2) Were people volunteering before for standard pay, and if so, why did they all suddenly refuse to volunteer

Before this incentive LM didn't need to cancel practically every service, so this has to be the case. However, I can add a little insight as to perhaps why. In most TOCs the rostering of available crew for Sundays and Rest Days is done with consideration for an equalisation list. This list counts every time each individual has worked a Sunday, and when choosing from the volunteers, those who have worked the least are considered first. What this meant is that when double time was announced, people who normally wouldn't volunteer, did. And they would have been given work ahead of those who volunteer for work on Sunday regularly due to equalisation. The regular volunteers didn't have as much chance of getting the increased pay during the incentive. Now that the incentive has expired, the regular volunteers can get in on Sunday again, but only for standard rate of pay. This may have annoyed them, as LM could usually rely on them more for Sunday work.

 

[jon0844]

Fair enough and thank you for a proper explanation, rather than accusations of 'being management' and other snide remarks.

I must say that being accused of thinking like management does highlight just how much some rail staff hate management!

 

[Ticket Man]

I must say that being accused of thinking like management does highlight just how much some rail staff hate management!

Have'nt been on the railway too long but i do get the strong sense of us vs them everyday.:roll:

 

[jon0844]

I know what it's like to work for clueless management, but surely not all managers are bad - and many people in the railway business today, as a driver or whatever, may one day aspire to rise to a management experience.

Does this mean that you are instantly going to be hated the day you're promoted, when the idea is to have people who have worked in the industry and actually know their stuff?

Or is the hatred out of sheer jealousy and the belief that managers are paid too much?

 

[Bill EWS]

It's not so much about hating Mangement, per say, Johmmorris0844. It's about a management who got the contract on running things as cheaply as they can get away with and with as little staff and equipment as possible, then when they find they can't run the railway properly push it all onto the workforce, who are probably already working long hours as it is. As explained earlier the majority of staff will always help out in a crisis, but there is a limit to how much they want to be used totally. If you are already running in what is emergency mode, you can't expect to pull out much more from the system when a crisis crops up. Having the bare amount of equipment doesn't work when something fails and you have nothing to replace it. Likewise, having the minimum of staff doesn't allow for sickness and accident. That's management's problem, not the staffs'.

 

[Metroland]

Have'nt been on the railway too long but i do get the strong sense of us vs them everyday.:roll:

Yes indeed, there is an extremely strong sense of it dating back decades and is the root cause of many of the problems. Many large UK companies are much the same (EG the post office or civil service). Its cultural, and its roots are in the class system and attitudes to all sorts of things, crappy education and so on and so forth.

Many of the management on the railway would do well to genuinely get out and about from behind their desks. There are some excellent management (The Adrian Shooters, Chris Garnetts (now left) and Chris Greens of the world) but there is a prevailing attitude once some of them get into certain positions to build empires, create oodles of red tape and wind people up through the discipline system.

The railway could cure many of its problems by opening up the whole lot to genuine completion, professional certification, and modern flexible work systems. We need many more companies like GC, easy ways of entry, and opening the whole thing up because right now its closed by the cartels of large management groups, the DfT and unions and I'm afraid without draconian action (such as banning strikes) these disputes will continue.

 

[EM2]

A lot of management (in my experience of a number of different industries) don't have 'on the ground' experience and make decisions that impact negatively on staff.
Those that have come up through the ranks are more likely to realise potential pitfalls and also to fight on behalf of the rank-and-file.

 

[Greenback]

Junior managers and those in senior positions who have worked their way up tend to understand the railway. Sadly, too much influence is now held by bean counters who don't udnerstand why there have to be spare drivers/conductors etc to ensure the railway runs well. All they say is numbers on a spreadsheet and have no understanding of what happens on the ground.

The fact is, that if nobody wants to work on a Sunday, the company must find a way around it by renegotiating the T&C's. To turn the usual media reporting on its head, the staff have offered to work for enhanced payments, the company has demanded they work for flat rate!

 

[Micky Redmire]

Hi, first post etc.

I've paid for and suffered the railways for 50 plus years. There are exceptions, but generally speaking I now believe that the solution is to rip up the tracks and lay tarmac.

Bob Crow's view? "They're not breaking their contracts of employment so what is the big deal?" I have had enough of subsidising the rail industry where scum such as Crow can wield power.

The LM management are obviously incompetent. I have had enough of subsidising the rail industry where incompetence is rife.

Where is Maggie when she's needed?

 

[Metroland]

Hi troll, We've got enough tarmac thank you. I'd like to close half the roads and make them cycle tracks, but that's another story.

 

[Bittern]

I'd like to close all the roads.

 

[Metroland]

National express East Anglia have voted to strike again.

Meanwhile more on the LM story.

----------------------------------

As London Midland traincrew still have guaranteed Rest Day Working (RDW) on a weekday and get time-and-a-half on Saturdays there is little incentive for them to work Sundays.

If your guaranteed weekday RDW falls on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday you just turn up, whether there’s a turn to do or not. So a few hours in the mess room, then off home. Happy days and no need to work Sunday!

Unwilling to address the route of the problem London Midland bottled it and in May introduced Double Time payments for Sunday working!

They came in droves. But at what a cost!

So last weekend’s sudden withdrawal of Double Time meant staff voted with their wallets and stayed at home.

And the company did errr… nothing.

As London Midland obviously has little appetite for a fight what’s the betting the extra payments reappear?

You can’t blame the unions, they are merely cashing in on weak management.

Meanwhile the rest of the industry holds its breath. If LM gives in, consider the impact on other TOCs.

So who is to blame?

Perhaps the biggest culprit is the Department for Transport which still insists on short term franchises that breed chaotic Industrial Relations .

With longer franchises the needs of both staff and the business could be addressed, over time. And without breaking the bank.

Meanwhile the taxpayer foots the bill whilst the railway prices itself out the market.

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2009/09/challenge-to-london-midland.html

 

[mumrar]

Some things that aren't correct about that. One, the guaranteed rest day regardless of a turn finished long ago, when the original double time Sunday agreement expired. Two, the time and a half Saturday is only if Saturday is a rest day, so 1 out of every 3. Third, the Sunday enhancement wasn't suddenly withdrawn, it expired on a predetermined date, after the deadline being extended once already.

 

[Metroland]

I did wonder. I'd drop them a line on that. Mind you commuters are fighting back now, they want rid of London Midland.

Commuters will demand the ousting of train operator London Midland if it does not swiftly resolve the situation that reduced the Euston line to a "ghost" railway on Sunday with only a single service running.

Passengers were hit after too few staff turned up to man trains under a system that relies on drivers volunteering to work on Sundays.

Coaches had to be hired to enable travellers to complete their journeys. The chaos has re-ignited critcism heaped on London Midland for poor performance in the months after it took over from Silverlink a year ago.

http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/Commuters-anger-at-train-operator.5627664.jp

 

[flymo]

Clash all their collective heads together and tell them to get it sorted. Sheesh

If mankind managed to put a man on the moon, ON A SUNDAY!, did Neil, Buzz or Michael get double time?, surely some idiot can work out a way to get LM trains running on a Sunday, it's not rocket science. {Or is it}.

 

[Mojo]

London Midland management are in a bit of a pickle! On one hand they're telling non-traincrew that there is no money for them to have a payrise (that they have offered traincrew) and be on similar Ts & Cs to traincrew and that 30 staff will be made redundant if they have to do it, on the other hand if they don't offer their traincrew extra money (that they've told non-traincrew that they don't have) then they won't have any trains on Sundays.

 

[flymo]

Perhaps if they ran trains on Sundays there may be more money with which to work.

 

[jon0844]

45,000 users on a Sunday, apparently. How many of them are season ticket holders enjoying free travel, as against people actually buying a ticket?

All of those ticket sales must add up to quite a bit of money.

If it became a regular thing for buses to be put on, I doubt many people would continue to buy train tickets; they'd simply use another mode of transport - or other buses.

Or, stay home entirely.