Night Tube Launch Date Announced

[telstarbox]

The frequencies will be:

Central line: 3tph Ealing Broadway to Hainault, and 3tph White City to Loughton (combined 6tph between White City and Leytonstone)
Jubilee line: 6tph Stratford to Stanmore
Northern line: 4tph Edgware to Morden, and 4tph High Barnet to Morden, both via Charing Cross (combined 8tph between Camden Town and Morden with no service on Bank or Mill Hill East branches)
Piccadilly line: 6tph Cockfosters to Heathrow Terminal 5 (thus excludes the Rayners Lane / Uxbridge branch due to lack of established demand)
Victoria line: 6tph Walthamstow to Brixton

 

[Deerfold]

A report has been produced on the benefits of the Night Tube, along with further information on the plans.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/night-time-economy.pdf

Interesting.

I can't say I'm keen on their suggestions that shows may start later - late starting (and thus finishing shows) were a bugbear when I lived in the home counties and there were several occasions where I had to leave before a band had finished their encores if I was to get my last train home. If moved much later they'll be inacessible to pretty much anyone coming in by mainline train (except for those on Thameslink on a Friday night). Similarly much of the rush at the O2 is by people making connections in central London rather than just making sure they get the last Jubilee line train.

P27 seems unlikely - the current suggestion would generate 520 extra jobs but adding 3 extra lines would only generate another 25 - surely the number of train drivers alone would be more than that.

Looks to be bad news for Heathrow hotels - though the report doesn't seem to think that's a bad thing.

 

[Simon11]

I would like to see their analysis on the reasons for excluding other lines/routes and the potential demand that would be there.

It does seem rather pointless looking into running the Met line between Harrow on the Hill to Aldgate. With other tube lines, I would have thought it would have been better to run between Wembley Park- Watford (when extended to central Watford) and Uxbridge)?

Although less people will require cabs in central London, there will now be a roaring trade for taxis from destinations such as Wembley Park.

 

[Busaholic]

On first sight, two interesting points to me, ignoring for the moment the lines/part lines with no service:-
1) TfL acknowledge the demand from the West End to beyond Kennington with 8 tph to Morden, which direct service they plan to cut off with the Battersea extension;
2) Parts of NW London seem to be over-provided for. Why does Stanmore have 6tph, particularly when nearby Edgware is getting another 4tph? 3 TPH beyond Wembley Park might well suffice.

Stratford gets 12tph all told, of course, but it seems to win the lottery every week!

 

[Deerfold]

On first sight, two interesting points to me, ignoring for the moment the lines/part lines with no service:-
1) TfL acknowledge the demand from the West End to beyond Kennington with 8 tph to Morden, which direct service they plan to cut off with the Battersea extension;
2) Parts of NW London seem to be over-provided for. Why does Stanmore have 6tph, particularly when nearby Edgware is getting another 4tph? 3 TPH beyond Wembley Park might well suffice.

Stratford gets 12tph all told, of course, but it seems to win the lottery every week!

1)At the moment this flow only gets a limited, mostly peak, service with no trains in most hours so there's not much to be removed with the Battersea extension (as we've discussed before on here). It's only turning up on the night service because no trains are running through Bank.

2)I suspect it's easier to keep the same level of service over all the lines served so Stanmore is probably overserved (but then it probably is during much of the day) rather than have multiple turning points.

 

[Antman]

On first sight, two interesting points to me, ignoring for the moment the lines/part lines with no service:-
1) TfL acknowledge the demand from the West End to beyond Kennington with 8 tph to Morden, which direct service they plan to cut off with the Battersea extension;
2) Parts of NW London seem to be over-provided for. Why does Stanmore have 6tph, particularly when nearby Edgware is getting another 4tph? 3 TPH beyond Wembley Park might well suffice.

Stratford gets 12tph all told, of course, but it seems to win the lottery every week!

Yes it does all seem very random just like nightbus provision, 6tph to Stanmore yet nothing on West Ruislip branch of the Central Line and I would have thought the City branch of the Northern would at least justify a shuttle between Euston and Kennington

 

[Busaholic]

1)At the moment this flow only gets a limited, mostly peak, service with no trains in most hours so there's not much to be removed with the Battersea extension (as we've discussed before on here). It's only turning up on the night service because no trains are running through Bank.

2)I suspect it's easier to keep the same level of service over all the lines served so Stanmore is probably overserved (but then it probably is during much of the day) rather than have multiple turning points.

The last time I looked Leicester Square was nowhere near anywhere on the Bank branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The last time I looked Leicester Square was nowhere near anywhere on the Bank branch.

On your last para, why not run all Central Lines through to Ealing then?

 

[Antman]

1)At the moment this flow only gets a limited, mostly peak, service with no trains in most hours so there's not much to be removed with the Battersea extension (as we've discussed before on here). It's only turning up on the night service because no trains are running through Bank.

2)I suspect it's easier to keep the same level of service over all the lines served so Stanmore is probably overserved (but then it probably is during much of the day) rather than have multiple turning points.

I can't see what the problem would be in turning alternate trains at Wembley Park, 3tph to Stanmore should be ample

 

[Deerfold]

The last time I looked Leicester Square was nowhere near anywhere on the Bank branch.

This is true, but I don't understand the relevance. I'm guessing that's why they're not running the trains through Bank as a lot more people go out near Leicester Square.

On your last para, why not run all Central Lines through to Ealing then?

I'm guessing that as they're already coming from different destinations in the East they wouldn't be able to just swap rotas etc in the same way as on line where all trains are doing the same thing.

I can't see what the problem would be in turning alternate trains at Wembley Park, 3tph to Stanmore should be ample

Do they need more staff present to turn trains?

 

[Busaholic]

this is true, but i don't understand the relevance. I'm guessing that's why they're not running the trains through bank as a lot more people go out near leicester square.




I'm guessing that as they're already coming from different destinations in the east they wouldn't be able to just swap rotas etc in the same way as on line where all trains are doing the same thing.



Do they need more staff present to turn trains?

q.e.d.

 

[Deerfold]

q.e.d.

Well there's a comprehensive explanation.

Thanks.

 

[Busaholic]

Well there's a comprehensive explanation.

Thanks.

Turning 3 tph at Wembley Park might require an extra member of staff on the platform, but should save two or three trains from the schedule therefore two or three drivers (highly-paid, especially at 3 a.m.) plus running costs saved,etc.
I an sure Northern Line not running via Bank is lack of demand compared to the massively in-demand Charing Cross route. Angel would-be passengers can go to Highbury and Islington, then Vic to Euston, Elephant ones just a short hop to Kennington (or night bus in both cases).The point I am making, and I know you and others deny it, is that Morden Line passengers want a through west end service and it shouldn't be denied to them just because the planners decree it. Patterns of travel build up over almost a century which don't dissipate at the stroke of a pen.
Anyway, imagine the furore when this begins and people in Bromley, Lewisham, Sutton and Kingston realise they have no hope of trains after midnight while the City of Stanmore gets a train every 10 minutes all night.

 

[Mojo]

Also with regards to the City branch a major project is about to start at Bank to construct a new tunnel and platform for the Northern line, which will involve night time works as well as a closure during weekends and weekdays.

 

[PeterC]

Considering the traffic jams between Old Street and Shoreditch Church late on Friday and Saturday nights there should be demand on the Bank branch. However in this case it isn't worth the bad PR of starting up just before a series of regular night time and weekend closures.

 

[Antman]

Considering the traffic jams between Old Street and Shoreditch Church late on Friday and Saturday nights there should be demand on the Bank branch. However in this case it isn't worth the bad PR of starting up just before a series of regular night time and weekend closures.

My thoughts exactly, there's plenty of nightlife around the Islington/Old Street/Shoreditch area and the buses often struggle to cope.

 

[Taunton]

Piccadilly line: 6tph Cockfosters to Heathrow Terminal 5

I think that the all-night service to Heathrow would be an absolute hit, the issue however is that the airport will only be served in this way for two nights per week, when it is a 7-day operation and demand doesn't vary that much between the days. Incoming travellers will find it especially perplexing.

Already the Tube (let alone Heathrow Express) doesn't start early enough for the initial outbound flights, which are all being boarded from 0530 onward ready for the curfew to come off at 0600, and thus travellers are wanting to leave Central London from 0400 onwards. Sunday of course is a much later tube start but the plane service is the same, so it misses significantly more flights. The real upside however is returning on the late evening flights. Being due into Heathrow at 2100 but being two hours late, plus the time for immigration etc, is an absolute disaster if the last Piccadilly or Express have just gone. It can cost more than the plane fare for a taxi to go home.

 

[rebmcr]

I think that the all-night service to Heathrow would be an absolute hit, the issue however is that the airport will only be served in this way for two nights per week, when it is a 7-day operation and demand doesn't vary that much between the days. Incoming travellers will find it especially perplexing.

Already the Tube (let alone Heathrow Express) doesn't start early enough for the initial outbound flights, which are all being boarded from 0530 onward ready for the curfew to come off at 0600, and thus travellers are wanting to leave Central London from 0400 onwards. Sunday of course is a much later tube start but the plane service is the same, so it misses significantly more flights. The real upside however is returning on the late evening flights. Being due into Heathrow at 2100 but being two hours late, plus the time for immigration etc, is an absolute disaster if the last Piccadilly or Express have just gone. It can cost more than the plane fare for a taxi to go home.

I can well imagine the Piccadilly line being the first mostly-24/7 line, but only after the signalling upgrade, which in turn has to wait for the SSL's.

 

[Hophead]

I think that the all-night service to Heathrow would be an absolute hit, the issue however is that the airport will only be served in this way for two nights per week, when it is a 7-day operation and demand doesn't vary that much between the days. Incoming travellers will find it especially perplexing.

Already the Tube (let alone Heathrow Express) doesn't start early enough for the initial outbound flights, which are all being boarded from 0530 onward ready for the curfew to come off at 0600, and thus travellers are wanting to leave Central London from 0400 onwards. Sunday of course is a much later tube start but the plane service is the same, so it misses significantly more flights. The real upside however is returning on the late evening flights. Being due into Heathrow at 2100 but being two hours late, plus the time for immigration etc, is an absolute disaster if the last Piccadilly or Express have just gone. It can cost more than the plane fare for a taxi to go home.

It'll be heavily used. By workers at and around the airport. I expect that they will be able, and in many cases willing, to alter their travel patterns a couple of nights a week.

 

[Taunton]

It'll be heavily used. By workers at and around the airport. I expect that they will be able, and in many cases willing, to alter their travel patterns a couple of nights a week.

The price for a staff car park permit in the outer area at Heathrow is £627 per year. There is no reduction for not using it on certain days. People who make this investment are going to use it.

 

[Deerfold]

The price for a staff car park permit in the outer area at Heathrow is £627 per year. There is no reduction for not using it on certain days. People who make this investment are going to use it.

But those who come in or go home on the night bus (and plenty do) may well swap.

 

[Busaholic]

There's an elephant in the room which doesn't appear to have been noticed - planned engineering works requiring rail replacement services i.e. buses. Apart from all the general cleaning and maintenance stuff that takes place every night on all lines, there is the engineering stuff that usually needs a full shutdown from last train on Friday evening to first train on Monday morning, although a small minority can be done from last train on Saturday evening. On some lines this can necessitate huge numbers of replacement buses, usually doubledeckers, with bus operators from all over London and the Home Counties taking part. As things currently stand, virtually every weekend one or more of these Night Tube services will not be running. How many bus companies already running large numbers of night buses will be willing to provide substitute buses, and even if they do so, how much will this all cost, with staff at the tube stations to ensure passengers get the right bus, etc, with many if not most customers inebriated? A Northern Line part closure on one of the northern branches could easily require 50 buses, probably more if, say, connections were also being made between tube lines e.g. Arnos Grove to High Barnet or Stanmore to Edgware.
This would all be exacerbated by people being able to travel into the West End earlier on a Friday evening, sober, and then finding (because, despite the publicity, they'd have forgotten) that when they've had their good night out they have to hang round in the cold waiting for a bus to get them home.
If, on the other hand, someone on this forum in the know says these planned engineering works will no longer take place over the weekend, or TfL are prepared to compromise their Monday morning run-out, please do inform us because I , for one, am intrigued to know how.

 

[Deerfold]

There's an elephant in the room which doesn't appear to have been noticed - planned engineering works requiring rail replacement services i.e. buses. Apart from all the general cleaning and maintenance stuff that takes place every night on all lines, there is the engineering stuff that usually needs a full shutdown from last train on Friday evening to first train on Monday morning, although a small minority can be done from last train on Saturday evening. On some lines this can necessitate huge numbers of replacement buses, usually doubledeckers, with bus operators from all over London and the Home Counties taking part. As things currently stand, virtually every weekend one or more of these Night Tube services will not be running. How many bus companies already running large numbers of night buses will be willing to provide substitute buses, and even if they do so, how much will this all cost, with staff at the tube stations to ensure passengers get the right bus, etc, with many if not most customers inebriated? A Northern Line part closure on one of the northern branches could easily require 50 buses, probably more if, say, connections were also being made between tube lines e.g. Arnos Grove to High Barnet or Stanmore to Edgware.
This would all be exacerbated by people being able to travel into the West End earlier on a Friday evening, sober, and then finding (because, despite the publicity, they'd have forgotten) that when they've had their good night out they have to hang round in the cold waiting for a bus to get them home.
If, on the other hand, someone on this forum in the know says these planned engineering works will no longer take place over the weekend, or TfL are prepared to compromise their Monday morning run-out, please do inform us because I , for one, am intrigued to know how.

I have wondered about this - although the lines have been chosen for their recent upgrades and so less need for maintenance, this isn't going to be true forever. Any major works aren't going to be happening overnight on other (single) nights.

I doubt they'd do the connections to other tube lines - this is usually done to reduce the need to run buses into congested areas which should be less of a problem at night but I suspect driver availability would be low - many RRB drivers are casuals who don't mind working daytime Saturday and Sunday - overnight will be a different story for many.

 

[Antman]

There's an elephant in the room which doesn't appear to have been noticed - planned engineering works requiring rail replacement services i.e. buses. Apart from all the general cleaning and maintenance stuff that takes place every night on all lines, there is the engineering stuff that usually needs a full shutdown from last train on Friday evening to first train on Monday morning, although a small minority can be done from last train on Saturday evening. On some lines this can necessitate huge numbers of replacement buses, usually doubledeckers, with bus operators from all over London and the Home Counties taking part. As things currently stand, virtually every weekend one or more of these Night Tube services will not be running. How many bus companies already running large numbers of night buses will be willing to provide substitute buses, and even if they do so, how much will this all cost, with staff at the tube stations to ensure passengers get the right bus, etc, with many if not most customers inebriated? A Northern Line part closure on one of the northern branches could easily require 50 buses, probably more if, say, connections were also being made between tube lines e.g. Arnos Grove to High Barnet or Stanmore to Edgware.
This would all be exacerbated by people being able to travel into the West End earlier on a Friday evening, sober, and then finding (because, despite the publicity, they'd have forgotten) that when they've had their good night out they have to hang round in the cold waiting for a bus to get them home.
If, on the other hand, someone on this forum in the know says these planned engineering works will no longer take place over the weekend, or TfL are prepared to compromise their Monday morning run-out, please do inform us because I , for one, am intrigued to know how.

I read somewhere that once the upgrade work is done there will be no more full weekend closures for the forseeable future although presumably lines could still be closed Sundays if need be after the Sat night service has finished?

 

[Taunton]

I would feel that advance organisation for planned works would be something reasonable to get organised. What is going to be more challenging to handle is a service failure when there is little alternative transport or engineering resource around. Main line overnight services have always suffered from this, even though the railway has generations of experience of 24 hour running, but it's not an insuperable issue if the sleeper arrives several hours late. Different if the Underground gets a train failure, or worse a derailment, at 1 am, in terms of handling the diverted passengers heading home.

 

[RJ]

There are already rail replacement contracts in place for weekend closures - I'm driving a "C1U" tomorrow between Earl's Court and Victoria. A number of routes have U elements that run when appropriate - the 2, 15, 391, N5 and N20 to name but a few.

I expect the same will happen at night - there are hundreds of buses sitting doing nothing on Friday/Saturday nights. As for staffing issues, you'd be surprised - the operators will find the people to do it!

 

[Busaholic]

There are already rail replacement contracts in place for weekend closures - I'm driving a "C1U" tomorrow between Earl's Court and Victoria. A number of routes have U elements that run when appropriate - the 2, 15, 391, N5 and N20 to name but a few.

I expect the same will happen at night - there are hundreds of buses sitting doing nothing on Friday/Saturday nights. As for staffing issues, you'd be surprised - the operators will find the people to do it!

The campaign I remember from the 1970s for free bus travel in London will have got its goal then. on Friday and Saturday nights at least! When word gets round they'll have to put hundreds of buses on.

 

[bravot]

People seem to be assuming that night bus services will disappear. I doubt that the night tube service will see much reduction on the current services until retendering processes etc.

Even then it won't take much for an operator to provide a few extra buses to cover considering more buses are on the road during the day than at night.

 

[Busaholic]

People seem to be assuming that night bus services will disappear. I doubt that the night tube service will see much reduction on the current services until retendering processes etc.

Even then it won't take much for an operator to provide a few extra buses to cover considering more buses are on the road during the day than at night.

No, night bus services won't disappear.What may disappear is the huge disparity found on some routes, often those that parallel Underground lines for at least part of their length, between the weekday night frequencies and the Friday/Saturday night frequencies. This saving in staff costs and fuel might then, in part, be able to boost daytime bus services in outer London which are coming under increasing pressure.

 

[bravot]

No, night bus services won't disappear.What may disappear is the huge disparity found on some routes, often those that parallel Underground lines for at least part of their length, between the weekday night frequencies and the Friday/Saturday night frequencies. This saving in staff costs and fuel might then, in part, be able to boost daytime bus services in outer London which are coming under increasing pressure.

There's only a few routes that are "designated" as mirroring tube lines though, most running at capacity.

It will be interesting how it all pans out...

 

[Be3G]

There's only a few routes that are "designated" as mirroring tube lines though, most running at capacity.

For anyone who doesn't feel like combing through the whole Night Time Economy report, these are the routes stated as operating parallel to Night Tube lines:

24, 25, 72, 83, 88, 93, 94, 139, 188, 205, 220, 295, 297, C2, N2, N5, N7, N8, N9, N10, N11, N13, N15, N16, N18, N20, N22, N29, N47, N55, N73, N91, N98, N113, N149, N155, N207, N253, N279, N381, N550, N551.