Night Tube Launch Date Announced

[Robertj21a]

But from what I saw on the BBC this morning, many are now thinking this is a step towards 24/7 running - which seems rather unlikely!

I know there was talk about single line operation years ago, to allow the other line to be maintained, but realistically that is never going to happen. Far too confusing, and needing all new signs that can change etc.

I think weekends are going to be just fine.

Might be fine, or at least step in the right direction, but what's the longer term plan ? If, as expected, London keeps growing and there's an increasing demand for more tube, train and bus services then the tube will have to consider running 24/7. I appreciate what problems have to be overcome but metros work 24/7 elsewhere so they can't claim it can't be done.

 

[Deerfold]

Might be fine, or at least step in the right direction, but what's the longer term plan ? If, as expected, London keeps growing and there's an increasing demand for more tube, train and bus services then the tube will have to consider running 24/7. I appreciate what problems have to be overcome but metros work 24/7 elsewhere so they can't claim it can't be done.

Generally when metros work 24/7 (such as in New York) there is more than one line in each direction. Without that there's no time at all for maintenance.

 

[Taunton]

Generally when metros work 24/7 (such as in New York) there is more than one line in each direction. Without that there's no time at all for maintenance.

This is a longstanding legend. People think that because they see the north-south lines through tourist midtown Manhattan with 4 tracks, that the whole network is like that. Not so. Much of it is two-track, as here (including the bulk of the lines through the Financial District in Lower Manhattan).

Likewise in other US cities such trackage is few and far between - one line in Philadelphia is all I can recall. I would say that firstly a lot of crossovers allow single track working. London seems to not only have few of these, but to have removed a fair number of those they used to have, and also have no signalling for single line working past worksites.

 

[Deerfold]

This is a longstanding legend. People think that because they see the north-south lines through tourist midtown Manhattan with 4 tracks, that the whole network is like that. Not so. Much of it is two-track, as here (including the bulk of the lines through the Financial District in Lower Manhattan).

Likewise in other US cities such trackage is few and far between - one line in Philadelphia is all I can recall. I would say that firstly a lot of crossovers allow single track working. London seems to not only have few of these, but to have removed a fair number of those they used to have, and also have no signalling for single line working past worksites.

So how do they manage track maintenance if trains are running on them 24/7? Even with crossovers it seems tricky to even make sure the electrics are off for such short sections of track. You'd have to swap platforms round too - would trains in both directions use the same platform?

 

[jon0844]

Most engineering work requires all train services stopped and there isn't much that could be done on the underground with one line of two electrified & open, tunnels, platforms etc.

Non starter imo.

Well, yes, there's the operational issues too - but even before anyone looks at how you might change things to allow single line running and isolate the power etc, the far more simple issues like how to get people to use totally different platforms than signed is a good enough reason to kill off the idea.

And what sort of capacity would you have anyway?

Whenever I hear people talk about how to operate a service 24/7 and this is given a solution, I feel like laughing (before sighing).

Or, you'd end up with the more likely scenario of trying to run later trains every night and then have loads of occasions where you turn up and it's closed for engineering work and you're directed to use buses. And then people will moan as if said engineering work is preventable.

 

[Busaholic]

Well, yes, there's the operational issues too - but even before anyone looks at how you might change things to allow single line running and isolate the power etc, the far more simple issues like how to get people to use totally different platforms than signed is a good enough reason to kill off the idea.

And what sort of capacity would you have anyway?

Whenever I hear people talk about how to operate a service 24/7 and this is given a solution, I feel like laughing (before sighing).

Or, you'd end up with the more likely scenario of trying to run later trains every night and then have loads of occasions where you turn up and it's closed for engineering work and you're directed to use buses. And then people will moan as if said engineering work is preventable.

And what could be accomplished in one night with both lines closed might stretch to 3 or 4 on each line individually with all the additional safety checks necessary. It is a complete non-starter.

 

[ScotGG]

Fair enough having issues with the tube but it's poor that new infrastrucutre like much of the London Overground, DLR and Crossrail are mentioned so little when it comes to 24 hour weekend running. The maintainance issue must be less on newer infrastructure, but I never hear anything of late running on those services. There's some where demand would be high enough - east London Overground, DLR to Bank/Stratford/Lewisham/Canary Wharf, and surely Crossrail should be from day 1.

 

[Clip]

I agree with LO going much later on a weekend

 

[martynbristow]

Fair enough having issues with the tube but it's poor that new infrastrucutre like much of the London Overground, DLR and Crossrail are mentioned so little when it comes to 24 hour weekend running. The maintainance issue must be less on newer infrastructure, but I never hear anything of late running on those services. There's some where demand would be high enough - east London Overground, DLR to Bank/Stratford/Lewisham/Canary Wharf, and surely Crossrail should be from day 1.

Theres issues that must also be considered:
Safety
Financial Viability
Operating Constraints & Practicality
Maintenance

So maintenance is only 1 issue, with the night tube its clearly needed and thought through

But you are right it SHOULD have been thought through.

I saw late night running on the continent.
And with the complexity and detail of work is nightly maintenance even practical anymore?

Potentially a whole closure would be more cost effective and less impact for passengers.

 

[Antman]

I'd imagine so, but I doubt any will become less frequent than they are Sun-Thu.

Eventually I would think there will be two different nightbus networks, one for Sun-Thu and one for Fri/Sat nights.

 

[Deerfold]

Eventually I would think there will be two different nightbus networks, one for Sun-Thu and one for Fri/Sat nights.

I'll be very surprised if that happens, except if the Fri/Sat one is a superset of the Sun-Thu one.

 

[jon0844]

I definitely think there should be a desire to run trains until 1 or 2am all week where possible. Of course this narrows the window for engineering work to as little as 2 or 3 hours, but this could presumably be managed if push came to shove?

For longer engineering projects, you'd just close the line earlier like any other railway line. It wouldn't be hard in central London to direct people onto buses, with signs and leaflets to show people the alternative routes.

 

[radamfi]

Dutch Railways have recently introduced a stricter health & safety regime. It is no longer allowed to work on one line while an adjacent line is still in operation. That means that late trains are more likely to be replaced by buses. This particularly impacts on their overnight train network between Utrecht, Amsterdam, Schiphol, The Hague and Rotterdam which now sees more replacement buses. But the overnight network is still considered viable and those lines are still timetabled to run 24/7/365 (except for a 4 hour shutdown on New Year's Eve until 0100).

 

[Antman]

I'd imagine so, but I doubt any will become less frequent than they are Sun-Thu.

I can't see how the current nightbus network will be viable on a Fri/Sat night with tubes running. Another potential problem is the lack of night bus connections at outer stations. Not much point running tubes to North Greenwich for example if the 108 and 472 cannot cope and I would think there is a case for having a Fri/Sat night service on routes like the 161 and 486 just as additonal buses run on NYE?

I'm suprised that the City branch of the Northern Line isn't getting a service and I would have thought the West Ruislip branch on the Central could at least justify a half hourly shuttle to North Acton and likewise with the Piccadilly Line between Uxbridge and Acton Town or Hammersmith?

Presumably the sub surface lines will be included at a later date?

 

[Busaholic]

I can't see how the current nightbus network will be viable on a Fri/Sat night with tubes running. Another potential problem is the lack of night bus connections at outer stations. Not much point running tubes to North Greenwich for example if the 108 and 472 cannot cope and I would think there is a case for having a Fri/Sat night service on routes like the 161 and 486 just as additonal buses run on NYE?

I'm suprised that the City branch of the Northern Line isn't getting a service and I would have thought the West Ruislip branch on the Central could at least justify a half hourly shuttle to North Acton and likewise with the Piccadilly Line between Uxbridge and Acton Town or Hammersmith?

Presumably the sub surface lines will be included at a later date?

I'm sure there will be a comprehensive review of night bus services after the night tube begins, resulting in both a decrease on certain routes and an increase on others on Friday and Saturday nights, and possible new provision at certain locations e.g. North Greenwich. The routes that are most likely to see a less frequent service are those emanating from central London that largely parallel tube services, particularly those that are much more frequent on those two nights compared to others like the N29 and the N73. Other routes may see a decrease only over a section (apparently scheduled 'short' workings are not complete anathema at night, taking the N3 as an example). I would think it not too late to make representations to TfL, via an Assembly member or whatever, to make provision for e.g. North Greenwich in time for the start of night tubes.

 

[Be3G]

It'll be interesting to see what TfL do about the N26. It recently had its weekend frequencies increased, and I'd be very surprised to see them decreased again when the Victoria Line starts running overnight: it doesn't parallel any tube lines (if anything, it's more of a parallel of the Chingford railway line), but will probably pick quite a few people up from Walthamstow to take them north to their final destinations. Perhaps TfL will in fact add overnight services on the 97 and 215 à la the last NYE to help take the strain off the dedicated night bus.

 

[Busaholic]

It'll be interesting to see what TfL do about the N26. It recently had its weekend frequencies increased, and I'd be very surprised to see them decreased again when the Victoria Line starts running overnight: it doesn't parallel any tube lines (if anything, it's more of a parallel of the Chingford railway line), but will probably pick quite a few people up from Walthamstow to take them north to their final destinations. Perhaps TfL will in fact add overnight services on the 97 and 215 à la the last NYE to help take the strain off the dedicated night bus.

Given there is a night service on the 69 terminating at Walthamstow from the south, would think adding an extension to Chingford and thus calling it N69 would be most likely if extra capacity was needed and, for those interested in the history of London's transport like myself, once again provide a night service from Chingford Mount to Stratford and places south that existed back in tram and trolleybus days!

 

[Deerfold]

I can't see how the current nightbus network will be viable on a Fri/Sat night with tubes running.

There's only a handful of the 100 odd night bus routes that will be affected - many night buses are replacing day routes or mainline rail - and there's only a few tube lines going to be running.

Another potential problem is the lack of night bus connections at outer stations. Not much point running tubes to North Greenwich for example if the 108 and 472 cannot cope and I would think there is a case for having a Fri/Sat night service on routes like the 161 and 486 just as additonal buses run on NYE?

As I said in the post you were replying to. I think it's very likely there will be Friday/Saturday only services - the services that run on NYE are highly likely to be candidates for such services.

 

[Busaholic]

This is just a theory, so waiting to be shot down, but at the moment all talk is of providing these tube services for, basically, West End revellers to get home. But what about those Outer London towns that have become magnets for revellers with bar after bar open well after midnight and attract people from neighbouring suburbs and further afield? Croydon and Kingston aren't on the Undereground network, of course, so are irrelevant to my point, although the former being on Overground may make this an issue in the future. Neither is Romford on the Underground, but, crucially, it is within striking distance of the District Line with a night bus to take you right to a station like Elm Park. So, if a night service was provided on the District through to Upminster there would be a very good chance of a lot of inebriated people travelling westbound from the Hornchurch area to Dagenham, Barking, East and West Ham, etc, and I believe those leaving the Romford nightspots have a particular penchant for rowdy behaviour and physical assaults. Any BTP patrolling this line would therefore nave to deal with issues in both directions, not just eastbound, and my theory is that TfL won't be embracing with fondness the idea of operating through to Upminster or anywhere much further east than Plaistow and this could be a reason for the sub-surface lines being kept out of the equation, in addition to the sharing of lines with NR in places.

 

[Antman]

There's only a handful of the 100 odd night bus routes that will be affected - many night buses are replacing day routes or mainline rail - and there's only a few tube lines going to be running.



As I said in the post you were replying to. I think it's very likely there will be Friday/Saturday only services - the services that run on NYE are highly likely to be candidates for such services.

I would think almost every night route serving Central London will be used less to some extent on a Fri/Sat night with tubes running
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is just a theory, so waiting to be shot down, but at the moment all talk is of providing these tube services for, basically, West End revellers to get home. But what about those Outer London towns that have become magnets for revellers with bar after bar open well after midnight and attract people from neighbouring suburbs and further afield? Croydon and Kingston aren't on the Undereground network, of course, so are irrelevant to my point, although the former being on Overground may make this an issue in the future. Neither is Romford on the Underground, but, crucially, it is within striking distance of the District Line with a night bus to take you right to a station like Elm Park. So, if a night service was provided on the District through to Upminster there would be a very good chance of a lot of inebriated people travelling westbound from the Hornchurch area to Dagenham, Barking, East and West Ham, etc, and I believe those leaving the Romford nightspots have a particular penchant for rowdy behaviour and physical assaults. Any BTP patrolling this line would therefore nave to deal with issues in both directions, not just eastbound, and my theory is that TfL won't be embracing with fondness the idea of operating through to Upminster or anywhere much further east than Plaistow and this could be a reason for the sub-surface lines being kept out of the equation, in addition to the sharing of lines with NR in places.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the sub surface lines hadn't yet had the necessary upgrade to allow continuous running.

 

[monty9120]

****ed revellers and tube tracks dont always go well.

will there be someone stationed on each platform (i doubt it)

with the increased numbers on the tube the maintenance window is ever shorter

im sure this is the reason night tubes haven't been run before.

they can of course use there train that checks the tracks inbetween services and shut down certain lines for a whole weekend like they do now

 

[jon0844]

People can and do get wasted long before the last tube as it is.

 

[Simon11]

Explain New Year eve, when customers will be even worse off and majority take advantage of the only time during the year with the tube 24/7.

 

[Deerfold]

Explain New Year eve, when customers will be even worse off and majority take advantage of the only time during the year with the tube 24/7.

What are you wanting explaining? Why will they have less money?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I would think almost every night route serving Central London will be used less to some extent on a Fri/Sat night with tubes running
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


.

Not at all - there are areas which currently have a six day a week 24 hour train service which have recently also had a new nightbus service introduced. It would be more likely that they enhance each other with (as during the daytime) more people taking the train out of London and then finishing their journey by bus as opposed to making the long journies out of town as present. Those taking the bus for short and intermediate length journies from town would continue to do so making the whole route viable as per similarly on the day services.

 

[Antman]

Which areas have a 24hr train service six days a week? As for them enhancing each other, that was my point. Travel patterns will change on Fri/Sat nights with less demand in the central area and more demand at outer tube stations

 

[Deerfold]

Which areas have a 24hr train service six days a week?

Within London:

Thameslink

Victoria - East Croydon - Purley

Paddington - West Drayton (no longer hourly but the longest gap is 110 minutes)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Which areas have a 24hr train service six days a week? As for them enhancing each other, that was my point. Travel patterns will change on Fri/Sat nights with less demand in the central area and more demand at outer tube stations

The N113 has recently been introduced serving Mill Hill which has a six day a week 24 hour train service - this is an 'as well as' rather than a 'replacement' of. I don't think the introduction of new night services on rail will reduce those on buses or vice versa.

 

[Antman]

The N113 has recently been introduced serving Mill Hill which has a six day a week 24 hour train service - this is an 'as well as' rather than a 'replacement' of. I don't think the introduction of new night services on rail will reduce those on buses or vice versa.

However these services are infrequent and any intending passenger would have to get themselves to the appropriate station, I think it is fair to assume that the tube, with stations throughout the central area, will be far more popular.

Whilst there may be more people going for a night out in the west end because of the 24 hour tube service, there still has to be a considerable drop in demand for the nightbus network.

 

[Simon11]

A report has been produced on the benefits of the Night Tube, along with further information on the plans.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/night-time-economy.pdf