New TPE Train Discussion

[gimmea50anyday]

Well, we shall see what happens over the next 3-4 years. Interesting and possibly exciting times to come. I don't think anyone in the company fully knows what will be happening at this time. There seems to be a lot of consultations and discussions going on behind the scenes at the mo, and things haven't fully settled down from the recent management cull yet.

 

[AndrewE]

Err.... We'll keep the Durham stop if you don't mind thank you very much!

Durham is only 12 mins from Newcastle, do we need to stop that frequently on such a long-distance service? I know it is a tourist and academic destination but wouldn't connections from Darlington be of more use to more people?

(I should say I am imagining these hourly long-distance LHCS trains fitting in with the current semi-fasts and local stopping services, the units released being used to strengthen the rest)

 

[glbotu]

Durham is only 12 mins from Newcastle, do we need to stop that frequently on such a long-distance service? I know it is a tourist and academic destination but wouldn't connections from Darlington be of more use to more people?

(I should say I am imagining these hourly long-distance LHCS trains fitting in with the current semi-fasts and local stopping services, the units released being used to strengthen the rest)

I mean, pretty much every other plan involves maintaining a high frequency of Durham services, including XC and VTEC, with Northern Connect getting in on the action (according to their website anyway).

There's not that huge a benefit to omitting Durham (75 mph over the viaduct - currently TSR to 60mph I think, so trains still slow down lots anyway), and Durham - Newcastle sees a lot of passengers including in the off-peak (where Darlington is generally a little too far away to maintain this). In an idea world, Durham would have some sort of regional service to Newcastle and the surrounding area, but there's nowhere to put those trains (ie: it's ECML or bust). You can fit more trains in if they have a consistent stopping pattern anyway. The only "local" trains are the 2 early morning Saltburn - Newcastles and one evening Newcastle - Darlington, but they only run, because the LDHS trains haven't got there yet.

Passenger numbers are the same as Darlington, so anything stopping at Darlington might as well stop at Durham.

 

[DarloRich]

Apart from on the very early and late services TPE don't plan to stop all Newcastle services at Durham or Darlington once 2tph to Newcastle starts: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...01832/tpe-tsr-schedule_3-tsr2-main-tables.pdf

If you feel Durham needs a Liverpool service more than an Airport service did you respond to the TPE consultation saying so?

well you can knock that on the head - not stopping at Darlo? Sacrilegious! How will i get to the match?

It seems short sighted. Durham is a busy tourist attraction and is home to vast numbers of dirty students all of whom seem to use TPE. Darlo gives connections to Teesside and Bishop Auckland and a large area of non railway served communities in County Durham and North Yorkshire AND the biggest army base in the UK form where all thew young soldiers seem to use TPE on a Friday to go home to Leeds, Manchester or Liverpool.

My take on this is the trains should be stopping at LIV, NLW, MCV, HUD, LDS, YRK, NTR, DAR, DHM, NCL, MPT, ALN, BER, DUN, with additional peak time stops CLS, Musselburgh, chathll but leave the regular CLS stops to the MIA service with additional peak stops on that at Thirsk.

This provides significant improvement to Northumberland stations and offers a far better connection in and out of Chester and north wales than the current multiple changes.

Agree - although i might be tempted to bin Chester le Street and Northallerton if it could speed up services and offer suitable connections

Durham is only 12 mins from Newcastle, do we need to stop that frequently on such a long-distance service? I know it is a tourist and academic destination but wouldn't connections from Darlington be of more use to more people?

Yes we do - it is a popular tourist attraction ( and I insist you all visit soon) a commuting base for Newcastle and a massive university city. I wouldn't cut it. The fact I was born there and need to get off there to visit my dad is neither here nor there

 

[northwichcat]

I think a lot of people are missing there will be 2 TPE services an hour between Newcastle and York instead of 1. No North East station will be losing services but some won't be getting double the number of TPE services they currently get. With York-Newcastle-Edinburgh paths being in demand it might be making the Edinburgh service most stops between York and Newcastle would create pathing problems north of Newcastle.

 

[ainsworth74]

Agree - although i might be tempted to bin Chester le Street and Northallerton if it could speed up services and offer suitable connections

I would definitely bin NTR to be honest. NTR will still have the MIA service and in terms of connections Yarm is so close to Eaglescliffe that getting a train from Darlington to Eaglescliffe shouldn't be too much of an imposition or simply change at York and get a Middlesbrough TPE.

A peak time service or two calling additionally at NTR, CLS, Chathill and Musslebrough (perhaps two peak time services with the four stops split between them so only two extra stops per service?) would be good though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apart from on the very early and late services TPE don't plan to stop all Newcastle services at Durham or Darlington once 2tph to Newcastle starts: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...01832/tpe-tsr-schedule_3-tsr2-main-tables.pdf

My take on this is the trains should be stopping at LIV, NLW, MCV, HUD, LDS, YRK, NTR, DAR, DHM, NCL, MPT, ALN, BER, DUN, with additional peak time stops CLS, Musselburgh, chathll but leave the regular CLS stops to the MIA service with additional peak

The TSR2 tables (Dec 2017) show that of 31 daily TPE services at Newcastle, 27 stop at Darlington and Durham, and 12 at Chester le Street.
So that looks like 2tph at DAR/DRH except for a few non-stops, and roughly 1tph at CLS.
Northallerton is a bit harder to work out, with the Middlesbrough services to consider.

Of 32 services at Lime St, 19 stop at Newton le Willows and 18 at St Helens Junction, which looks like 1tph and a few extras early and late at NLW and SHJ.

 

[northwichcat]

The TSR2 tables (Dec 2017) show that of 31 daily TPE services at Newcastle, 27 stop at Darlington and Durham, and 12 at Chester le Street.
So that looks like 2tph at DAR/DRH except for a few non-stops, and roughly 1tph at CLS.
Northallerton is a bit harder to work out, with the Middlesbrough services to consider.

Hourly at Chester-le-Street? Manchester services at 08:30, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30, 16:30, 18:30, 19:30, 21:30 and 23:30 would meet the Monday to Friday requirements shown.

Southbound there's 24 shown at Durham and 25 at Darlington.

Durham's requirements could be met by Manchester services at 07:15, 08:15, 09:15, 10:15, 10:45, 11:15, 12:15, 12:45, 13:15, 14:15, 14:45, 15:15, 15:45, 16:15, 17:15, 17:45, 18:15, 19:15, 19:45, 20:15, 21:15, 22:15, 23:15, 00:15 so on average around 1.5 services per hour between 10:00 and 20:00 and 1 service per hour outside those times. Although, a later first service or an earlier last service could change that average to 1.5 services all hours.

 

[po8crg]

It seems short sighted. Durham is a busy tourist attraction and is home to vast numbers of dirty students all of whom seem to use TPE.

The combination of the YP railcard, the ever-increasing difficulty of the driving test, and enormous car insurance rates for under-25s means that most students are reliant on public transport. For any long distance in the UK, that means getting on a train.

Students are always going to be a major customer-base for rail here, and serving them well is a very good idea; get them into the habit as students, and long-distance rail has customers for life.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

*Ahem* not to mention a certain legendary TPE employee and quality railforum contributor lives there too....

(Actually there's quite a significant number of train staff who live in Durham including VTEC's legendary HST driver Trudy.....)

Joking aside Durham Does have a significant catchment area as well as being powered by a major university, Expansion of which in Stockton is seeing significant growth of use of the station. Many towns around are becoming dormitory towns such as Spennymoor, ferryhill, crook, Sedgefield, bowburn, coxhoe etc....

Could really do with leamside reopening along with stillington improved. That will bring significant capacity improvement, new services and a useful and useable diversion

 

[notlob.divad]

The combination of the YP railcard, the ever-increasing difficulty of the driving test, and enormous car insurance rates for under-25s means that most students are reliant on public transport. For any long distance in the UK, that means getting on a train.

Students are always going to be a major customer-base for rail here, and serving them well is a very good idea; get them into the habit as students, and long-distance rail has customers for life.

Add to that the increasing number of oversees students who study here, where the cost of owning a vehicle for a relatively short time is not economical would want to visit as much of the country as possible in their relatively short time here.

 

[NotATrainspott]

TPE not stopping at Darlington doesn't make much sense unless it is due to infrastructure limitations. Since there will be more non-stop ICEC services, and as the platforms are to the west of the non-stop lines, it might not be possible to call there due to timetabling constraints. However, there has been mention of a new southbound platform being built to the east of the mainline which would probably make it possible to call there.

 

[AndrewE]

There's not that huge a benefit to omitting Durham (75 mph over the viaduct - currently TSR to 60mph I think, so trains still slow down lots anyway),
In an idea world, Durham would have some sort of regional service to Newcastle and the surrounding area,.

Sounds like skipping Durham would save 5 minutes then - through at 60 or 75 mph instead of braking, station stop (LHCS with 2 doors/coach) and accelerating again...)
As I said, I hoped that limited-stop LHCS maybe once an hour would be dovetailed with existing stopping services
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Durham is... a commuting base for Newcastle)

Exactly. Why inflict commuters on long-distance travellers when there are lots of other services the 10-minute hop people can take?
I have unhappy memories of not being able to get on to a trans-Pennine train at Leeds, the one I did get into emptied out at Huddersfield. So there is a good reason to run one Inter-city train an hour that does not stop at commuter stations as well!

 

[43074]

If I recall correctly wasn't one of the TPE services from Durham to Newcastle one of the busiest services on the network until recently? That alone suggests Durham is important enough for the majority of peak services to call there, that's aside from the student, railhead and tourist traffic. Durham's one of those places with a pretty strong case for almost everything to call IMO, although possibly with the exception of the most important Anglo-Scottish services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could really do with leamside reopening along with stillington improved.

Well of course the new Northern Connect is going to go via Stillington from Middlesbrough so soon enough there will once again be regular passenger services down there again!

 

[AndrewE]

Add to that the increasing number of oversees students who study here, where the cost of owning a vehicle for a relatively short time is not economical would want to visit as much of the country as possible in their relatively short time here.

Everybody wants every train to stop at their own local station. It's understandable, but surely people here can take a broader perspective?

I think that it's agrred that we have a problem with path availability and not enough rolling stock. So one set of LHCS (as many coaches as the demand justifies) per hour, calling at a reduced number of big stations to maintain timings and to minimise [commuter] loading delays might be a workable solution. Also releases units to boost capacity on the other services too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I recall correctly wasn't one of the TPE services from Durham to Newcastle one of the busiest services on the network until recently? That alone suggests Durham is important enough for the majority of peak services to call there, that's aside from the student, railhead and tourist traffic. Durham's one of those places with a pretty strong case for almost everything to call IMO, although possibly with the exception of the most important Anglo-Scottish services.

Can you imagine all London services stopping 10 or 12 minutes from the city terminus? Hardly any WCML trains call at Wafford Jct these days, and that's a really good connection node... whereas Durham is effectively an isolated honey-pot. Maybe the ECML trains (which seem to make their money mostly on tourist traffic) ought to all call there, while the "proper" inter-city network (TP hourly Expresses, any others?) should miss it out!

I'm being provocative, but we really do need a strategic consideration of how rail can provide the best service to as many flows as possible rather than business cases just focussing on a few honey-pots.
And I'm fed up of long-distance services being swamped out by short-hop commuters. Bring back "S" and "U" stops!

 

[43074]

Can you imagine all London services stopping 10 or 12 minutes from the city terminus? Hardly any WCML trains call at Wafford Jct these days, and that's a really good connection node... whereas Durham is effectively an isolated honey-pot. Maybe the ECML trains (which seem to make their money mostly on tourist traffic) ought to all call there, while the "proper" inter-city network (TP hourly Expresses, any others?) should miss it out

Watford Junction is slightly different because there are plenty of LM services to both Euston/Milton Keynes that people can connect into, and much of the demand is to Euston anyway. In the case of Durham there isn't currently an equivalent two-tiered service, pretty much everything except the Northern Connect will be long-distance, and will have to be because there won't be the capacity for much more.

I'm being provocative, but we really do need a strategic consideration of how rail can provide the best service to as many flows as possible rather than business cases just focussing on a few honey-pots.
And I'm fed up of long-distance services being swamped out by short-hop commuters. Bring back "S" and "U" stops!

Agreed; although I do question the value of 's' and 'u' stops at places like Durham & Wakefield Westgate where the services that could do with them go through the major city 10 mins or so down the line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Exactly. Why inflict commuters on long-distance travellers when there are lots of other services the 10-minute hop people can take?
I have unhappy memories of not being able to get on to a trans-Pennine train at Leeds, the one I did get into emptied out at Huddersfield. So there is a good reason to run one Inter-city train an hour that does not stop at commuter stations as well!

Skipping Huddersfield is a non-starter, especially as we're already being stripped of our true local stoppers in order to allow 6 expresses each hour. Huddersfield has almost as many inbound commuters as outbound, not to mention being the recommended interchange point for TPE passengers heading to Manchester Airport from those places which don't have a direct Airport service due to a guaranteed same-platform change.

 

[NoMorePacers]

The route is technically unchallenging, but there are a couple of spots that will need extra special attention, primarily the Selby swing bridge, and Hull Paragon station.

As it's my local line, I would agree with you on all those points. Heck, it has the longest dead straight section of track in the country, it only curves at the eastern end to stop the trains crashing into the sea, and at the west for the bridge. Selby's is a problem because it is fully functional, and it crosses an important river. Hull station's roof is low, and raising it will be a challenge. It may come crashing back down to earth, we never know.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Huddersfield being the recommended interchange point for TPE passengers heading to Manchester Airport from those places which don't have a direct Airport service due to a guaranteed same-platform change.

I always plug Huddersfield (or Northallerton) as the interchange, unfortunately it's only the humans in the know that do this. The computerised online ticket selling sites always push York as the connection, even tho from a customer service point of view it's a poor connection.

And I'm fed up of long-distance services being swamped out by short-hop commuters. Bring back "S" and "U" stops!

Ok, but can you suggest how we would police such a restriction and how I should deal with someone who has broken that restriction by alighting at a U stop. Or boarded at a S stop? I have enough arguments on board as it is dealing with AP, railcard, wrong ticket/no ticket, can't pay/wont pay as it is without having more restrictions to deal with, thanks....

 

[ainsworth74]

Hull station's roof is low, and raising it will be a challenge. It may come crashing back down to earth, we never know.

Have they lowered it since I was last there? Describing Hull's roof as low is not something that I would consider doing!

 

[AndrewE]

Skipping Huddersfield is a non-starter, especially as we're already being stripped of our true local stoppers in order to allow 6 expresses each hour. Huddersfield has almost as many inbound commuters as outbound, not to mention being the recommended interchange point for TPE passengers heading to Manchester Airport from those places which don't have a direct Airport service due to a guaranteed same-platform change.

But who needs 6 expresses an hour? I agree that the provision of true local and semi-fast services are as illogical as the over-hyped and over-provided "express" services too. To me a 3- or 4- car DMU being fought over at Leeds is not an express service, full stop. Glasgow - Euston services ceased to stop south of Warrington "to reduce the overcrowding" (Virgin letter to my MP), so omitting Huddersfield stops on one of the 6 transpennine trains per hour seems reasonable to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ok, but can you suggest how we would police such a restriction and how I should deal with someone who has broken that restriction by alighting at a U stop. Or boarded at a S stop? I have enough arguments on board as it is dealing with AP, railcard, wrong ticket/no ticket, can't pay/wont pay as it is without having more restrictions to deal with, thanks....

Agree Policing U and S stops is difficult without individual platform access control. It shouldn't be left to on-train staff to deal with. If we had open stations and more TTIs then the money wasted on barriers (left open most of the day) could be spent on staffing instead!

 

[NoMorePacers]

Have they lowered it since I was last there? Describing Hull's roof as low is not something that I would consider doing!

Well, from my Point of View as a daily user of the station, most of the trains stood in the platform are inches away from the bottom of the roof.

 

[AndrewE]

Watford Junction is slightly different because there are plenty of LM services to both Euston/Milton Keynes that people can connect into, and much of the demand is to Euston anyway.

You forget that a lot of people on the WCML aren't able to arrive by a LM service, to do so and make a connection at Watford Jn involves at least 2 changes/3 trains. I'm bleating on because the WCML isn't a minor northern extension of the London commuter network, but a key part of the national network. I think people in the old NSE area are almost impervious to the fact that a lot of the UK population live outside this area and aren't only interested in travelling to central London.

 

[Starmill]

Ok, but can you suggest how we would police such a restriction and how I should deal with someone who has broken that restriction by alighting at a U stop. Or boarded at a S stop? I have enough arguments on board as it is dealing with AP, railcard, wrong ticket/no ticket, can't pay/wont pay as it is without having more restrictions to deal with, thanks....

For the most part enforcement isn't required if it's done sensibly. In the case of stops to pick up only, these won't be advertised on departure boards. So if some but not all trains from Newcastle call at Durham, and the ones that do are pick up only, the stop will never be advertised on the screens. Most passengers won't try it on. Anyone who does will be in for a shock when they try it on one that doesn't stop there. NRE won't tell you either. Only things like paper timetables, realtimetrains, or searching from departures from Durham and trying to work it out from the times will do, and there aren't going to be many people who will be so diligent.

It's more difficult to prevent people from boarding at a set down only stop, but that's mostly down to the station staff to ask people not to board and have the screens show it as not in service.

On the off-chance that someone does abuse the stop, all that's needed is to warn them not to try it again as they are likely to come unstuck.

Not that I'm saying its specifically a good idea. Just that if it happened (it probably will at Bolton) it's not too difficult to do properly.

The problem I think it creates is that Edinburgh <> Durham passengers wouldn't be able to use these services, which TPE will almost certainly want to attract.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But who needs 6 expresses an hour? I agree that the provision of true local and semi-fast services are as illogical as the over-hyped and over-provided "express" services too. To me a 3- or 4- car DMU being fought over at Leeds is not an express service, full stop. Glasgow - Euston services ceased to stop south of Warrington "to reduce the overcrowding" (Virgin letter to my MP), so omitting Huddersfield stops on one of the 6 transpennine trains per hour seems reasonable to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agree Policing U and S stops is difficult without individual platform access control. It shouldn't be left to on-train staff to deal with. If we had open stations and more TTIs then the money wasted on barriers (left open most of the day) could be spent on staffing instead!

I'm not sure who needs 6tph, but the powers that be have decided that's the best use of capacity. I don't agree but we are where we are. The problem with your complaint of seats being taken by Leeds to Huddersfield pax is that under the new timetable it won't just be Dewsbury and Huddersfield passengers taking up space on your Manchester train- it'll be Morley, Batley and Mirfield people too, and they won't have a choice any more than you do.
What do you feel would be gained by one of the six services omitting Huddersfield? It won't be speed that's for sure, as lines through HUD aren't particularly fast. If the only gain is that you can stretch your legs out a bit then frankly it's a selfish request and not something the railway should be busting a gut to fulfill.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, I am still not au fait with the new TPE timetables, but what is the situation with direct services from Manchester Airport direct to Durham (and reverse)?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well, from my Point of View as a daily user of the station, most of the trains stood in the platform are inches away from the bottom of the roof.

We are talking about Hull here right? Station with a nice airy arched roof over each bay of platforms? Because I do not even remotely recognise that description!

 

[Starmill]

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/58/47/2584700_659596d9.jpg
This roof?

 

[Bungle965]

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/58/47/2584700_659596d9.jpg
This roof?

In what way does that look like inches away?
Sam